markpierce wrote:Yes, I know oranges, or their concentrate, are shipped to the West.
If I remember correctly, Florida oranges are banned from importation into California because of an infestation in Florida's orange trees (I do not remember what the infestation is). I do not know how long this has been in the case, although I doubt it goes back to the transistion era. Florida orange juice is allowed into California.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
siestaman wrote: I would qualify the point that Markpierce made about California having enough oranges of its own. Not for the sake of political correctness, Lord spare us that, for I'm sure it was in jest, but I read, probably in "PFE, 2nd edition", that the varieties of oranges grown in California produced the better table fruit, and that those grown in Florida were better for juicing. I suppose that there might also be a slight difference in the growing seasons, so I wouldn't rule out the east to west traffic entirely. Never say "Never"!!!Ed
I would qualify the point that Markpierce made about California having enough oranges of its own. Not for the sake of political correctness, Lord spare us that, for I'm sure it was in jest, but I read, probably in "PFE, 2nd edition", that the varieties of oranges grown in California produced the better table fruit, and that those grown in Florida were better for juicing. I suppose that there might also be a slight difference in the growing seasons, so I wouldn't rule out the east to west traffic entirely. Never say "Never"!!!
Ed
My comment was only partly in jest. (Yes, I know oranges, or their concentrate, are shipped to the West.) Did you know that in the 1934-35 season that California and Arizon shipped 98,680 carloads of or oranges, lemons, and grapefruit which amounted to about 60% of all oranges, 95% of all lemons, and 30% of all the grapefruit consumed in the U.S. and Canada? Oranges were shipped out year-round. The seedless Navel orange ripens in the fall and winter, being picked and shipped from November to May. The Valencia, grown in cooler areas, ripens during the summer months. Lemons were year-round too. Carrots, lettuce, potatoes, and pears were shipped out 12 months a year also. (Source: pages 352, and 442-7 from the book Pacific Fruit Express, 2nd Edition) Also, on some recent television show I heard that California still produces a huge fraction (I forget the exact percentage cited) of fruit and vegetables grown in the U.S. The varied climatic zones of California allow for four seasons of production of one variety or another of fruit or vegetable, somewhere.
Mark
siestaman wrote: This forum is a mine of good info, as I found out when I first posted here. A number of those contributing to this post put me in the picture about reefers and ice-houses, and they recommended some good books too.I would qualify the point that Markpierce made about California having enough oranges of its own. Not for the sake of political correctness, Lord spare us that, for I'm sure it was in jest, but I read, probably in "PFE, 2nd edition", that the varieties of oranges grown in California produced the better table fruit, and that those grown in Florida were better for juicing. I suppose that there might also be a slight difference in the growing seasons, so I wouldn't rule out the east to west traffic entirely. Never say "Never"!!!Ed
This forum is a mine of good info, as I found out when I first posted here. A number of those contributing to this post put me in the picture about reefers and ice-houses, and they recommended some good books too.
There are different seasons for different varieties of oranges.
http://www.sunpacific.com/availabilitycalendar.pdf (They still ship by rail)
Shilshole wrote:StixLeased??
Stix
Leased??
I'm more of a "rent to own" I think - though I'm sure my wife would like to find out what my "scrap value" would be.
I did consider having a refrigerator line subsidiary of my Minnesota-based free-lance railroad called "Superior Transportation International" that would have reporting marks "S.T.I.X." but I haven't done it...so far anyway, but I think I still have some Champ "private name" individual words around that would work.
wjstix wrote:...The woodies had yellow sides, the steel orange sides, so a little variety.
It's my understanding that the NP R-40-23 clones built by PC&F in 1947 (91000-91249 series, as done by Intermountain) were yellow; a close paint match is 10 parts Polyscale reefer yellow, 1 part reefer orange, and a drop or two brown. Do you recall which series of the NP steel sides were orange (maybe the 91250-91499 series R-40-25 clones?), and if it was as deep an orange as PFE used?
...(I assume you know "X" at the end means the car was leased?)
Yes, but apparently NP management and/or painters were confused for awhile. Some of their drab gray mechanical reefers built in '55 and '58 carried NPMX reporting marks, with the 'X' shown painted over in photos.
Re the NP, in 1951 you'd see an interesting mix...they still had plenty of woodsided reefers, and were getting orders of steel cars. The woodies had yellow sides, the steel orange sides, so a little variety.
BTW going to/from the midwest you'd probably also see Burlington Refrigerator Express (BREX) and perhaps even some Western Fruit Express (WFEX, owned by Great Northern). (I assume you know "X" at the end means the car was leased?)
You could also throw in a few fun ones like West India Steamship company reefers.
It may not apply to your particular situation, but reefers didn't carry only produce. I've heard that canned goods often moved in reefers when suitable boxcars weren't available and un-iced non-ventilator reefers were also used to haul cargos subject to freezing during winter months. The reefers in this situation were used the same as insulated boxcars. In many instances, charcoal heaters were also placed in the bunkers to keep interior temperatures from dropping too low. The CNR, and, to a lesser extent, CPR used older wooden baggage cars to haul fruit and other produce not requiring refrigeration, with large slatted vents cut into the upper carbody. I'd like to build a couple of these cars, but good pictures of the ventilators seem to be hard to come by.
Wayne
New York Central had its own reefer fleet also. I think it was MDT.
Dick
Texas Chief
marknewton wrote:As for your email, I didn't get it, did you get mine? I'm not sure that emailing from within the forum is all that reliable.
Yes I did, thanks very much, I'll resend shortly. More info if you're thinking of adding an NP reefer: The steel-sided cars were nearly identical to PFE's R-40-23. Intermountain used to offer painted and lettered kits with the correct numbers, but they're not on IM's current list. The car can be modeled using the IM undec R-40-23 and Microscale 87-488, with enough left over to do a wood side NP reefer using an Accurail undec fishbelly reefer. For late 50s and later periods, another good looking NP car is their RBL done in both 40- and 50-ft versions: <http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/np/np98474ajs.jpg>. Both versions are generally easy to bash to get something close with few compromises, starting with Microscale 87-404 decals (including correct "CP" and "DF2" door badges), Accurail 8-ft plug doors, and Branchline undec boxcars.
Thanks again.
marknewton wrote:Seriously, I wasn't aware of NP having it's own reefer fleet until you mentioned it. Did they have many?
From the NPRHA on-line freight car roster (see <http://research.nprha.org/Lists/Equipment%20Rosters/AllItems.aspx>), about 3000 wood-sided ice bunkers blt 1912-1932 (although another source gives that number as 5000), declining to fewer than 1500 in 1955. Again from the roster, NP ordered about 1300 steel-sided ice bunkers 1947-54 and about 875 mechanical reefers 1955-67.
Not at all comparable to FGE or PFE fleet numbers, but almost a requirement for hauling Yakima Valley apricots and apples.
[OT: Did you receive my email re: ply/PVC skins on foam used on your colleagues' modules?]
Adding to Mark's reply: ART was jointly owned by MoPac and Wabash, NWX by CNW, and URTX (a division of General American by your time frame) leased to private shippers and a few roads (e.g., MILW).
Identities for more reporting marks than anyone deserves can be found at <http://www.nakina.net/report.html>.
Shilshole wrote: Oh, surely, but they'd remain a small percentage of the reefers typically originating loads on the OP's Florida-based layout. For his purposes, I'd guess a model ice reefer fleet with a ratio of 5 (or more) FGE : 2 WFEX/BREX : 1 PFE/SFRD : 1 ART/NWX/URTX might be representative, with cars in the latter two groups shipped out empty more often than not. Also, I think it's an unwritten rule that every layout has to have at least 1 NP reefer.
Oh, surely, but they'd remain a small percentage of the reefers typically originating loads on the OP's Florida-based layout. For his purposes, I'd guess a model ice reefer fleet with a ratio of 5 (or more) FGE : 2 WFEX/BREX : 1 PFE/SFRD : 1 ART/NWX/URTX might be representative, with cars in the latter two groups shipped out empty more often than not. Also, I think it's an unwritten rule that every layout has to have at least 1 NP reefer.
Thanks for that info. What companies do ART, NWX, and URTX stand for? I'm not familiar with those.
Yes, I mentioned west because I'm modeling the line running west from Tallahassee to Pensacola, but that freight was generally headed toward the midwest, not the far west.
Incidentally, after settling on the line I wanted to model, I read that most interchange between the SAL and L&N went through Montgomery AL, not the Tallahassee-Pensacola line. Oh well, maybe the month I'm modeling there was a washout on the Montgomery line.
How far west would Florida citrus travel? Wouldn't there be more coming from California east? I remember the first time I was in California in 1957. the state had more citrus groves than I ever saw in Florida.
Shilshole wrote:Also, I think it's an unwritten rule that every layout has to have at least 1 NP reefer.
Also, I think it's an unwritten rule that every layout has to have at least 1 NP reefer.
Don't forget that Florida imported fruits (cherries, etc.?) and vegetables (lettuce, etc?) from west coast states. Thus, you'd expect PFE and other western-based reefers coming into Florida. These reefers would have to be returned westward either filled or, most likely, empty. California, in particular, was a net exporter of produce. We didn't need your oranges: we had our own. Also, California needed those reefers to be returned pronto to be loaded for more shipments to the east.
jimrice4449 wrote:PFE and SFRD cars wouldn't necessarily be inapropriate. If they loaded out in Fla they could be sent back towards the home roads under load, especially in a time of car shortage.
I don't really know about FGE but it seems to me they stuck w/ wood longer than most (as did WFX)
I think you're right about that; several of the new Intermountain FGE 40' wood-side ice bunkers would be appropriate for his layout's time frame.
Not all fruit & produce had to be refrigerated...the Coast Line, Seaboard, FEC all had ventilated box cars that were used to carry loads that needed fresh air, not cooling. The cars had vents with shutters on the end, and an open, barred door to allow air to circulate, to keep the produce fresh. (The openings were screened with chicken wire). The vent shutters could be closed and the car had a regular box car door as well, so it could be used as a regular box car as well. Ventilated boxcars were used into the 1960s. Reefers could be used as vents also...when you see photos of reefers with the ice hatches open, they are being used as vents.
ConCor and Westerfield make models of ventilated box cars in HO.
I once called my county extension service (I live in Fort Myers) and asked the agent when various products were harvested. His reply was that 'any time is harvest time'...shipping took place all year round.
For shipments originating in Fla, most likely FGE and consortium partners Western Fruit Express and Burlington Refrigerater Express. (One of FGE's car repair facilities was in Jacksonville, and WFEX and BREX reefers were often seen carrying Jacksonville shop stencils.) I don't recall SAL or L&N having their own reefer fleets, although I think they had a few express reefers.
Inbound shipments would certainly include SFRD and PFE cars hauling produce not available in Fla, and meat reefers having a variety of reporting marks.