Junctions between CNW and other lines

[Anonymous]

I'm looking at modelling CNW lines where they make a junction with other lines (UP or ATSF). Given that CNW ran on the correct (Left hand) side and the others wer backwards... can anyone tell me of any special arrangements or location examples. I imagine that conventional interlockings rather than CNW cab signalling was used at these places?

[dehusman]

The CNW had a junction with the UP at Council Bluffs, Fremont, Norfolk and Omaha, NE. Fremont, Council Bluffs and Omaha were end to end junctions. Norfolk was on a single track non-signalled branch.

The only place CNW had a junction with the ATSF other than through the Chicago terminal was at Superior, NE and I doubt that had any signalling system on the CNW at all.

So to answer your questions there were no special arrangements since they didn't cross the double track ATS territory.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

The CNW had a junction with the UP at Council Bluffs, Fremont, Norfolk and Omaha, NE. Fremont, Council Bluffs and Omaha were end to end junctions. Norfolk was on a single track non-signalled branch.

The only place CNW had a junction with the ATSF other than through the Chicago terminal was at Superior, NE and I doubt that had any signalling system on the CNW at all.

So to answer your questions there were no special arrangements since they didn't cross the double track ATS territory.

Dave H.

Thanks... Please excuse ignorance... CNW must have crossed loads of lines (including at grade) at loads of places... were there really so few junctions... or were the others with other companies... if so what there?


Different question... how do I run CNW, UP and ATSF together in the 80s?
Trackage rights? or...? Do I go to the J?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I don't have an exact answer for you, but geographicly speaking, there were not very many opportunities for the C&NW to cross either the UP or the Santa Fe. The area around Peoria Illinois may be your best chance, as the C&NW crosses 3 different Santa Fe lines. The one closest to Peoria was the former TP&W.

I got this information from a couple of railroad atlases, so I have no way of knowing whether they intersected at grade, or bridged over.

I went and looked at terraserver, and followed the tracks through the farm fields. As it turned out both of the best opportunities were in fact bridges. No connection.

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=10&Z=16&X=1374&Y=22909&W=1&qs=%7cdixon%7cil%7c

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=10&Z=16&X=1382&Y=22673&W=1&qs=%7cchillicothe%7cil%7c

P.S. This is my 5000th post.

[Anonymous]

To get all three roads your best bet is the Chicago terminal. Probably the IHB. UP power could be run through on C&NW trains. Outside of there try the Kansas City area.C&NW came into town on the old Rock Island "Spine Line"
Also the EJ&E probably would not be good since the ATSF main went right under the J. There is a connection from the J's Joliet Yard but I've never heard of it being used for interchanging trains.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Foster
[Different question... how do I run CNW, UP and ATSF together in the 80s?
Trackage rights? or...? Do I go to the J?

Not the answer you expected, but try modelling Conrail's ex-NYC line between Chicago and Elkhart, Indiana. Pool power from all three of the above mentioned roads was common in that territory during the 80's.

[dehusman]

Short answer is either Chicago or you don't. the UP used the CNW to get to Chicago, so that means the UP didn't have its own tracks. No tracks, no crossings. The ATSF has always had its own routes and generally didn't go where the CNW went.. Actuallyt other than Denver, KC and LA the UP and ATSF served different areas. The three railroads served different areas and so didn't cross very much and didn't operate over each other very much. Between Fremont, NE and Chicago there would be a lot of run through business with the UP and CNW, but no interaction with the ATSF. It didn't serve that part of the country. Other than an end to end connection the 3 railroads didn't have much in common at any point.

In order to get the three together you have to go to the late 1990's, and 2000's post UP/CNW/SP merger so the UP could operate on the BNSF, ex ATSF, using SP trackage rights. Of course by then the ATSF units were relettered BNSF and the CNW units had for the most part been repainted UP.

Dave H.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave (both[;)]), I'm not even sure if they crossed in Chicago. There is a good chance that they didn't. Both had different corridors entering the city. The C&NW came in from the north, the west and north west, and the Santa Fe came in from the southwest, along the canal. I don't know if their passenger trains used different stations, but in it's day, Chicago had many. From the map, it looks Santa Fe used LaSalle Street, and C&NW had their own a short cab ride away.

Any freight interchange was probably handled by the BRC (Belt Railway of Chicago).

Never the twain shall meet.[swg]

[dehusman]

So near and yet so far.

Dave H.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I guess the best way to get these railroads to interact is to use modeler's license.

This explains why UP wanted and needed the C&NW, access to Chicago as well as a number of northern states that they didn't serve. It was a great fit, with little overlap of service.

By the way Dave H, I noticed in one of Mr Foster's other posts, that he is from the UK. He is at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to US railroads, but then that's what we're here for. [swg]

[jimrice4449]

I was born and raised on the South Side of Chicago and moved w/ my family to LA in 1950. I wanted to duplicate both w/ some N&W and Southern thrown in. After all sorts of mental exercising to come up w/ a logical rationale I decided to Hell with it and just started running whatever appealed to me. I've gotten where I can see my Southern steam powered heavywieght train across the Platform from my GN Empire Builder w/ no effect whatsoever on my blood pressure. Very liberating! I recomend it highly.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

I was born and raised on the South Side of Chicago and moved w/ my family to LA in 1950. I wanted to duplicate both w/ some N&W and Southern thrown in. After all sorts of mental exercising to come up w/ a logical rationale I decided to Hell with it and just started running whatever appealed to me. I've gotten where I can see my Southern steam powered heavywieght train across the Platform from my GN Empire Builder w/ no effect whatsoever on my blood pressure. Very liberating! I recomend it highly.

Jim, it sounds like you scored high on your "modeler's license exam". [tup][tup][swg]

[Anonymous]

Thanks all! Appreciate your help. More help welcome. Anyone good on Interlockings?

Yes I'm from UK... started looking at US about 1990 when UK scene finally drove me nuts...

too many people seeking the exact colour of "Midland Red"...

anyone seen an old paint recipe...

ran along the lines of "Take one 40 gallon barrel, tip in twenty gallons of solvent, tip in 20 lbs of white lead powder... My theory is that the works could get a "near enough" colour... and made up enough to do one side at a time... most passenger cars had black ends... solved one problem. The other thing of course is that older paint was less chemically stable and less able to resist change from the effects of weather and light than modern paint.

Just think what the "Health and Safety" people would make of it. They have a heart attack about removing a signal gantry with a square inch of lead based paint left on it. No respirators back then.
Then again the GWR c1905 had a brilliant eye-protection campaign... it said "We can give you as many eye protectors as you need. God only gave you one pair of eyes". Eye protection then was fine wire mesh goggles.

I've learnt so much about the USA from my interest.... but clearly didn't learn where which railroads go!

If you look at a map of the UK, even in an Atlas, you will see that the country is pretty much North and South... the USA goes a huge long way East and West... that's real confusing.

There's a book called "Blue Highways" by William Least Heat Moon... only book except for "All Quiet on the Western Front I've read six times... brilliant... comments on the experience of early settlers travelling west in covered wagons... behind a horses rump (or an ox) for day after day. Must put Amtrak service in a whole different light...

I've traced most of the Blue Highways route on a Rand Mcnally Atlas... have a dream of following it one year... just needs RR hotspots adding in...

Back at the question...

Outer Belt looks good... did they see much loco run through or use their own... I have a Belt C424 (Atlas) ... 'cos I like it. But only Belt loco I've ever seen (and that was by accident).

MR or RMC had an article many years ago about a north-south line west of Chicago which they thought would make a good regional/shortline... anyone know this article...I've lost it... my ideas are loosely based on this... I figured a regional crossing and linking north-south and providing a bridge traffic connection...poetic licence?

Then again that Conrail idea is intriguing... except I only have a couple of Conrail locos (Well, everything ran everywhere as far as I can see...) When was Conrail formed?? From?? CSX? Or is there a good chronology I can look up somewhere please???

I think that "What was where, when is the most difficult thing for us to work out... how do you manage?

Incidentally...we're not "Brits"...we're English, Scottish or Welsh...just like the Freight Company... . Some of course are Cornish, Ulstermen, Manx... Me, I'm from Surrey, via "Sarf Lundun". I've escaped to the Midlands. The quiet is weird!

Oh yes... reason for Chicago.... well, where does a "Brit" look to start in the USA...it's so BIG... family legend has it that a reltive was in Chicago about 1905. He was grabbed by both arms and rushed into a hotel foyer. The man kept hold of him and told him not to touch his nose when he let go... his nose was frost bitten... don't know if it's true but it's as good a reason as any I've heard...

[Anonymous]

David, thanks for you insights on a "Brit"'s view of US railroading. A few thoughts of my own for you:

1. Try asking anyone modelling US railroads (railways?) how to properly mix a color called "boxcar red". Sorta like asking anyone fluent in Japanese to pronouce the word "parallel".

2. Conrail was formed in 1976 by government fiat (no, not the Italian car....), merging the Penn Central (NYC+PRR), Erie Lackawanna, Reading, Central RR of New Jersey and Lehigh Valley. CR ceased to exist in that form when it was purchased by CSX in 1999, who promptly sold 52% of Conrail's physical plant to Norfolk Southern. To complicate the issue, Conrail still exists as Conrail Shared Assets Operations, which functions as a terminal railroad in Northern New Jersey, Philadelphia and Detroit to promote equal access by CSX & NS.

3. I will apologise for all in the US for the term "Brits"....we Americans like to shorten everything as much as possible....sorta like the term "Yanks"....

4. Good story about frostbite in Chicago....don't put your tongue on the iron railing, either.

[Anonymous]

1. I KNOW that I'm going to regret asking this... WHY would I put my tongue on an iron railing?

2. Thinking about the Kansas City possibility reminded me that a college friend was forcibly deported by your immigration people from Kansas City. Arrived back at Heathrow in what she was wearing when they kicked the door in... had to call her parents collect. Funny part was... her husband was programming computers for the CIA or FBI... she got a very nice first class flight back... new front door...

Meanwhile... back at the trains...

When did the Rock finally get absorbed/rescued/? into the CNW?

I would never have thought of Kansas...seems a long way out of CNW territory...was reason for getting the Spine Line expansion into more of the same, strategic or opportunistic?

3. Could someone suggest a good railroad atlas to help me find my way round all of his/these places?

4. It may have been a Kansas scene that I stumbled on in an internet photo collection that set up another aspect of my present plans...
a couple of SDs heavy hauling in a deep concrete trench...loads of retaining walls and cross bridges... having seen Terminator 1, 2 and 3, CHIPS and CSI etc it set me thinking about all those nice big storm drains... so what happens when railroads running in an industrial area through lined cuts need to cross a big drain/river that is managed? My answer is that it should mean that I get lots of nice bridges between nice deep, narrow cuts that hide the departure from scene or make sensible ((licence) reason for tunnel mouths so close to bridges without being in mountains.
a. does this make any sense?
b. does anyone have any nice pictures of this sort of scene...or know where I might find them..apart from by walking round Kansas.... that I don't mind... it's the walk there that's a bit long and wet...don't mind Cessnas... dead unsure about Boeings. Yeah, okay, the statistics show...

[Anonymous]

C&NW began operating the Spine Line in, I believe, 1980 as part of the Rock's liquidation. It got official ownership of the line in 1983 after which the former Chicago Great Western line to KC was abandoned (C&NW bought CGW in 1968).
As for atlas' try the SPV Railroad Atlases. Heres the link http://www.steam-powered-video.co.uk/acatalog/american_railroading_atlases_spv.html .
For trenchs, maybe google the Alameda Corridor in Los Angeles. KC is known for flyovers.

[dehusman]

The rock collapsed in the late 70's. It was scattered to the 4 winds. I think every RR in the midwest ended up with part of it. The MP, SP, SSW, MKT, CNW and a gazillion short lines gobbled it up.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Thanks again!

Why didn't I find this forum a couple of years ago... it's brilliant.... makes long range interest both easier and more fun. Hope you all keep not minding answering questions that may seem ridiculously basic... it could take me ages to find all the stuff you've already given me. (I'd add a huge smilie if I worked out how).

All those lines, MP...CNW have been gobbled up by UP ...including MKT? weird what happens with time isn't it? When SPSF wasn't allowed who'd have predicted where things are now?

Are the KC flyovers a result of Grade seperation? Thanks to John from Big Sandy, Texas,I started my interest / research looking at rairoad journals between 1880 and 1910... that's the journals, not when I was looking at them. I'd love to model that era but (eventually) figured out that I'm not going to live that long. I've settled for enjoying Stewart C628s winding their way through scenery... guess they should be up in (Wisconsin?) Steel country... or iron ore at least... mine must have had bad brakes and slipped west/south (Think I'm going to have to put a fold out US map on the wall). [Shouldn't have skived learning the USA in geography lessons... thought it was too big...] Umm, maybe that's East, South East. I have figured that I'll never get CNW into LA unless I rewrite history and have them take over UP... now there's an idea...

I was fascinated by things like grade seperation... the prior running through town at grade was pretty good. Here we segregated our railways extremely early. The bits of railway that are not fenced in like a prison are pretty rare. The latest spell has been miles of steel 10' palisade fencing. People even break through that!... then it's still the railway's fault if someone gets themselves injured while trespassing... and they say the US has a "compensation culture". At least the media have finally woken up to the fact that, if someone jumps the barriers and gets hit on a level crossing (grade crossing) it wasn't the nasty train that attacked them.

Incidentally, with older barriers the red lights on the boom flicker just before they lift. Kids get to know this... Now, if you have a kid revving a 50cc riceburner to death and you time it right... if you take your thumb off the switch at the critical moment... not that I ever did it... I did (genuinely accidentally - I was watching the nearer side approaches which had more problems) cut a blind lady off from her guide dog... that's how we discovered that the audible warning that side had stopped working. We rescued them and said sorry. Can't do that with CCTV!

Back at 1900... I have a scan about "Railroad Sanitation" that you might find interesting... if someone can tell me how to attach it / paste it / whatever...

When I get the train shed sorted I have piles of photocopies of 1880-s -- 1910 drawings of locos and stock... some have a tiny error between the copied dimensions on the horizontal and vertical axies... I'm told that this can be corrected. That I can recall I have a "live poultry" car... with a compartment for an attendant... must have been some job!... and several combination cars... not wood sides in stell frames as per 1940s emergency stock but "origami" cars that folded in or out to switch between cattle, box and even covered hopper cars. Someone else may get round to modelling them.

Thanks again everybody.

[DSchmitt]

From the 1953 Railway Equipment Register (reprint available from the NMRA), some other Registers are available on CD rom from Westerfield

ATSF: Chicago Illinois (via connecting railroads), Chicago Ill (Wood Street) Peoria Ill (connecting railroads), Proviso Ill (connecting railroads), Superior Neb

UP: Albion Neb, Council Bluffs Ia, Davenport Neb, Fremont Neb, Lincoln Neb (via CB&Q or Mo Pac) Norfolk Neb, Omaha Neb, South Omaha Neb (direct or through So Omaha Terminal)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Foster

1. I KNOW that I'm going to regret asking this... WHY would I put my tongue on an iron railing?

3. Could someone suggest a good railroad atlas to help me find my way round all of his/these places?

1. I dunno....why would you touch your nose when it's frostbitten?

3. Rand McNally used to publish a very good US railroad atlas....not sure if they still do.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Foster

1. I KNOW that I'm going to regret asking this... WHY would I put my tongue on an iron railing?

3. Could someone suggest a good railroad atlas to help me find my way round all of his/these places?

1. I dunno....why would you touch your nose when it's frostbitten?

3. Rand McNally used to publish a very good US railroad atlas....not sure if they still do.

I have the Rand McNally's from 1973 and 1985, which was what I used to give my previous responses. I haven't seen any later than 1985. I remember looking more than 10 years ago, and not finding one, then I stopped looking.

I haven't seen the SPV atlases, but I suspect they are very detailed. I wi***hey would do Minnesota. The problem with them, as I see it, is that they only cover a few states per volume. A full set would be an expensive proposition.

[Wdlgln005]

The first entry of UP into Chicago may have been when they took over the Mopac route from St Louis, with a yard in Dolton. The only connection from ATSF may have been back in Kansas City.
I don't think ATSF ever made it to St Louis.

ATSF used the Dearborn Station at about 11th & State. Wabash, Monon >W/CN also used the station. PRR ran north with GM&O to the south end of Union Station with CB&Q. C&NW has their own station about 2 blocks north of Union Station. The only connection of C&NW with anything would be by cab.

[Anonymous]

The SPV atlases are very detailed but they are expensive. Buy the one or two that cover your region first. They are worth the price.
ATSF did make it to St Louis in the late 1980's when they backed the Gateway Western purchase of St Louis-Kansas City section of the Chicago, Missouri & Western. SP got the Chicago-St Louis section of the CMNW.