just curious. another thread mentioned storing cars in a yard or staging, presumable instead of removing them from the layout.
I'm aware that MT (empty) cars are returned to the RR that owns the car. I'm curious about what the owning RR does with an MT that is not needed. i'm guessing that the MT has reached its destination as soon as it arrives at a yard of the owning RR unless there is some specific storage yard for such cars
do yards typically have a track for MTs?
also, how might handling MTs fit into operation?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
If the cars are not assigned to any paricutlar service (e.g.: hauling a particular commodity for example hoppers used to haul coal) they are free rollers. That is they can be used by any railroad for any commodity. If they are assigned to a pool which is in captive service. For example hauling grain from one grain elevator to either a grain mill or to a port for export, they stay in the pool unless they have to be removed for repair. I am sure that there are addional examples.
The traditional 'industry' answer I've always heard is that any 'owned' car is losing money every instant it isn't rolling, either in revenue service or on the way to be used for revenue service. If you can't keep up with originating and scheduling the traffic, lease rights to the car out to some company or agency that will.
We had a thread comparatively recently about the '70s "play" that encouraged small railroads to pimp out their marks "as if on cars they owned" for large fleets of nominally-leased railcars -- in some notorious cases, car fleets whose cumulative length exceeded not only any available 'storage' space, but the whole length of road represented by all the railroad's track-miles. Guess where the cars were?
There have, of course, been many situations where large numbers of cars have to be 'stored' somewhere. It should be noted that, in virtually all the cases I've seen, these were not "owned" cars; the railroads in question leased out the storage space as cheap as the traffic would bear to get some income out of otherwise-underused or unused trackage.
I recall seeing many cuts left on unused sidings. There was a very long string of TTX flats on the part of the old NYS&W that ran from Hackensack over to the tunnel under the Palisades -- which, amusingly, had been a double-track line, one track of which had been converted to an oil-supply pipeline for a formerly coal-fired PSE&G powerplant in the area. There was a long string of cars on the portion of the L&A immediately north of Springhill up toward Taylor for a long time in the mid-Nineties; there was and perhaps is a substantial length of cars on the line from the west into the Kentucky Railroad Museum facilities in New Haven, KY. There are at least two locations visible from highways that used to be staging yards near powerplants for unit coal trains that, after the plants were decommissioned or modified, came to be used for equipment storage; there are probably more.
i'm disappointed by the lack of response.
what exactly is the destination of an MT? is it the first yard of the owning RR that the car reaches or a particular location within the division?
wouldn't such a location be the equivalent of another structure-less destination on a layout similar to an interchange?
wouldn't it provide another type of intra-layout movement instead of cars moving between industry, thru the yard and staging?
and doesn't it provide the possibility of using a different car for an particular industry instead of the same cars moving back-and-forth? could a car-card have a spot for changing the car?
gregcwhat exactly is the destination of an MT? is it the first yard of the owning RR that the car reaches or a particular location within the division?
I assume we are talking about general service cars, assigned, pool and private owner cars would have a "return to" destination.
From whose perspective? If I am a foreign line then the destination is the agent at the interchange point. The PRR has no idea what the RDG does with it's cars.
After inter change it's wherever the railroad sends cars of that type or where cars of that type are needed. Gons would go to places where there are steel mills, boxes would go to places where there are manufacturing, covered hoppers go to grain regions, hoppers to coal mining regions.
The car service group on the railroad distributes the cars. They try to minimize haulage get the cars to where the railroad thinks they will be needed. Not all cars go to one place They may go to several places. And the destinations may change by day or week or season.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
When I worked in car control, we had some default collection places (empty grain hoppers went to Osawatomie, KS, empty gons went to San Antonio) but the rest of the general service cars were distributed by the car control group.
Customers would forecast how many cars of which type they would needin the 7-30 days to range and we would find suitable cars and route them to those locations. There wasn't just one yard that all the boxcars went to. We would be sending cuts of 1-10 cars all over the system, based on what the customers told us they would be needing in the short range future. When teh empties would reach the destination yards, they would be allocated to the customers as they ordered cars in.
Acme Material in Taylor, TX needs 90 gons in April, so starting in the last week of March we would start routing empty gons, 3 or 4 a day toward Taylor. When they go to Taylor they would go in the yard and then as Acme ordered 3 cars to be spotted on April 2nd, the agent would tell the local to get 3 empty gons from whatever empty gons were in the yard to spot at Acme.
If the railroad starts to see a large number of cars without orders (sometimes a known situation, sometimes not) they will figure out a spot to store the extra cars. But these are long term storage location (weeks, months or years). In many cases they will put cars in short sidings, not generally used for train meets, or in old branches that don't have any traffic any more. When cars go into those tracks they are rarely switched. The cars go in to stay for the duration of the storage.
I know of one situation during one of the economic downturns that a railroad stored about 5 miles of boxcars on a unused branch. A couple boxcars from another railroad ended up that cut. The other railroad asked for their cars back and the storing railroad said no they weren't going to did out 2 empty boxcars. What they did was offer to restencil two similar cars that were first out and give the other railroad two other cars.
gregcand doesn't it provide the possibility of using a different car for an particular industry instead of the same cars moving back-and-forth?
Depends. If it's an assigned car the same cars going to the same industry is very common, especially with private owner or specially equipped cars. 50 years ago I would search the railroad on which I worked for RDG car on my region, since I modeled the RDG.
I noticed on particular RDG boxcar that made 4 trips from Dana in Reading to the GM plant in Arlington, TX over the course of a couple months.
Private owner coal cars can bounce between the same mines and same utilities for months or years. Grain cars can do the same thing but there is a bit more churn in the movement of grain cars.
i'm thinking about general use box cars that serve small industries or team tracks on a smaller layout, not coal or tank cars that serve specific industries.
dehusmanWhen they go to Taylor they would go in the yard and then as Acme ordered 3 cars to be spotted on April 2nd, the agent would tell the local to get 3 empty gons from whatever empty gons were in the yard to spot at Acme.
would they be kept on one of the yard tracks or track off to the side similar to a RIP track?
wouldn't a yard that services a bunch of small industries or team tracks wnat to keep a few MTs available?
gregcwouldn't a yard that services a bunch of small industries or team tracks wnat to keep a few MTs available?
My yard that serivces a bunch of small industries keeps extra loads avaliable. (we are mostly load in, MT out). They get tossed on 1-3 of our longer yard tracks, then ordered cars get dug out for the local when the industry wants them (closed gate) or they have room (open gate). We can have anywhere from 2-4 tracks for this. Sometimes a whole track gets designated for one indutry if they have a bunch of cars sitting in our yard, other times tracks may have several indsutries' cars on them. Usually mixed up becuase you are cherry picking what they want, so order doesn't matter.
Now if a customer really has a ton of cars they can't handle, and our yard starts getting plugged, we may take them to another smaller yard nearby or industry track to stash them for a bit.
The few customers we have that load cars, don't do it enough that we have to have a stash of empties (and they usually just reload system empties that are already on site). Now one of our customers will reload cars that another industry empties out, so they may get set out and parked in our yard a day or 3.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
gregcwould they be kept on one of the yard tracks or track off to the side similar to a RIP track?
Normally there is a track in the yard where off spots and cars to be ordered in are held waiting spotting instructions. They would be held with them, generally not a specific track for empties, unless its a location that uses a lot of empties. If it's a steel mill that uses 100 empty gons a day, they might have several tracks of empty gons to supply the steel mill. I have never seen a yard that has a designated track just to hold empty cars pending billing into industries.
Yes but they wouldn't necessarily have a track just for empty cars, they would probably have a track for hold cars (no bills, empties awaiting billing, off spot cars, cars not ordered in yet, etc.)
gregcI'm aware that MT (empty) cars are returned to the RR that owns the car.
Strictly speaking, the car is to be sent in the direction of the owing railroad, if no load going in another direction was found. So a Boston & Maine boxcar that delivered a load to a company in Los Angeles might be put on a train going to Chicago or Kansas City or Dallas - any train going east towards the B&M. Another railroad could intercept the car on the way and put a load in it.
My understanding is that today there are fewer boxcars than in the past, and many (most?) of those that are in use are used for specialized service - plug door boxcars for beverages for example - so tend to go back and forth from point A to point B.
Here in the Midwest there are railroads that have covered hoppers that are really only used during the fall grain rush. I've seen those cars on storage tracks. For example, I believe CP uses the otherwise unused former Milwaukee Road tracks from Minneapolis to St. Paul to store cars.
dehusmanI have never seen a yard that has a designated track just to hold empty cars pending billing into industries.
I should qualify that, railroads keep empties on hand to cover future loadings, and sometimes the industries may not have cars ordered in or off spot (inbound loads are spotted on arrival). In those cases there might be tracks in a yard just for empties to be spotted.
For example, in Pine Bluff, AR, a cottonseed mill had a rate for cotton seed meal in boxcars to the Pacific NW if loaded in SP system cars. The industry was on the MP/UP and was reciprocally switched for the SP. There was a short spur (on the MP/UP) near the Mill where a cut of SP cars (actually "Golden West" cars) was kept in case the mill wanted to bill out a car of meal on that particular rate. The SP would keep 3 or 4 cars over there to cover a couple loads out a month.
Also in Pine Bluff there were two paper mills that shipped out paper in boxcars. We would get cuts of empty boxcars, that would be switched to the cleaning track, be cleanded and then the clean cars would be put in two tracks in the yard where we kept cars for those paper mills. The tracks had mostly empties because the plants recieved mostly empties. Yes the track had mostly empties for loading, but it wasn't an "empty car track", it was a track for the paper mills. I guess it was essentially the same thing, but the perception was different.
Since there were different types of boxcars (depending on the type of paper and the size of the rolls, width/height and diameter) the TSE switching the paper mill would switch out a particular mix of cars, based on on what the paper mill needed to load that day.
When I was in Durand, KS the agent would keep stealing a few 60' boxcars for hay loading, but I was always making him bill them out because they were intended for appliance loading.
The time of year can also make a difference. In the winter and spring,the midwest railroads used to be awash in empty boxcars. They were stuffed everywhere. Come the fail harvest you couldn't find a spare boxcar.
gregc just curious. another thread mentioned storing cars in a yard or staging, presumable instead of removing them from the layout. I'm aware that MT (empty) cars are returned to the RR that owns the car. I'm curious about what the owning RR does with an MT that is not needed. i'm guessing that the MT has reached its destination as soon as it arrives at a yard of the owning RR unless there is some specific storage yard for such cars do yards typically have a track for MTs? also, how might handling MTs fit into operation?
So are you asking this in relation to planning an operating scheme for a model layout?
Personally, I don't use a car card system for operations, far too cumbersome - I use switch lists. So a freight train, already made up with a particular list of cars leaves a staging yard, comes into view on the layout, travels roughly half of the visible mainline and pulls into the one visible yard on the layout.
That train may terminate there or it may just drop off and pick up a block of cars. The cars dropped off correspond to a switch list for the yard/local crews to distribute to the correct industries, also making pickups as needed from those industries.
In any event, the cars in the hidden staging are already in "madeup" in advance as mainline trains, with locomotives and cabooses.
Only one of the 4 staging yard is accessable for "five finger" switching, but generally I do not do that, surely not during an operating session. That is the 10 track stub end yard on the wye, it will be mostly visible in my workshop area, but still not visibe from the main layout viewing/operating area.
The rest of the mainline staging are thru sidings grouped along the hidden part of the mainline. There will be 14 such sidings along the main line, and 10 tracks in the stub end yard.
Prior to an operating session, in the main visible yard, the switch list is confirmed to match the consist, adjustments are made as needed or desired and the train is then staged in the desired staging track to match the mainline schedule.
Not all trains originate, terminate or transfer cars at the visible yard. Some are just run thru's or power changes.
Ultimately some percentage of trains simply appear "on stage" run around the whole mainline and return to their staging track, or a different staging track if they are to simulate a different phase of operation for the next session.
Once a train leaves the "stage" it can go anywhere/be anything in your imagination.
There will always be some cars in the main yard, MT's, new arrivals, waiting departures. It is the yardmasters job to organize them as needed - as others have described.
To me this is the beauty of only modeling one "place", meaning one terminal/switching/yard operation. It creates a nice balance of industrial switching, yard work and mainline operations.
Passenger operations are similar.
There are three more hidden staging tracks on the WESTERN MARYLAND branch, and a few trains will be "staged" on the visible portions of the layout. Bring the number of "staged" trains to about 32.
Sheldon
wjstix gregc I'm aware that MT (empty) cars are returned to the RR that owns the car. Strictly speaking, the car is to be sent in the direction of the owing railroad, if no load going in another direction was found. So a Boston & Maine boxcar that delivered a load to a company in Los Angeles might be put on a train going to Chicago or Kansas City or Dallas - any train going east towards the B&M. Another railroad could intercept the car on the way and put a load in it. My understanding is that today there are fewer boxcars than in the past, and many (most?) of those that are in use are used for specialized service - plug door boxcars for beverages for example - so tend to go back and forth from point A to point B. Here in the Midwest there are railroads that have covered hoppers that are really only used during the fall grain rush. I've seen those cars on storage tracks. For example, I believe CP uses the otherwise unused former Milwaukee Road tracks from Minneapolis to St. Paul to store cars.
gregc I'm aware that MT (empty) cars are returned to the RR that owns the car.
I believe the empty foriegn car traveled home using the reverse route it went as a load towards it's home road. This to allow those who received money for handling the load participated in the cost of it's return. It could be confiscated along it's route for loading. Either reloaded on the destination road or on an intermediate road on the return route, it could be loaded to a point in the direction of the home road. It didn't have to be loaded to the home road.
Jeff
so after reaching the "owning" RR, if an MT is not needed at an owning RR yard it arrives at, what happens? is it sent (?) to another yard? does it continue rolling from yard to yard until needed?
gregcso after reaching the "owning" RR, if an MT is not needed at an owning RR yard it arrives at, what happens? is it sent (?) to another yard? does it continue rolling from yard to yard until needed?
It is sent to whatever yard or industry the car control group has set up for that car type or for a specific car need.
The industries communicate car needs with the agents or agencies, the local agents/agencies communicate car needs with the division level car control people who communicate with the system level car control people. The division and system level people issue instructions on what to do with empty cars, whether to return them or route them to a specific area or station.
The railroad has been doing this for decades so it has a pretty good idea where it will nedd cars and so has set up standing instructions for routing empty cars. All of these are managed through the clerical ranks/agents/agencies who do the billing. the yardmasters and dispatchers don't necessarily have anything to do with it, they just execute it. Sometimes the function is attached to the agency operation, customer service, billing side, somethimes its attached to the dispatch office (since it's a communications node) and a separate staff from the train dispatchers handles it.