Interchange Alternative Question

[mam]

Dear Folk,

Usually, one railroad leaves cars at an interchange for another railroad.

Did one railroad ever allow another road's engine to ferry the second railroad's cars any distance on the second railroad before dropping them off for the second railroad's engines to take over? e.g., Did a group of cars meant for the MKT ever allow a SF engine to carry that consist of cars any distance on MKT lines before they were dropped off for an MKT engine to take over the consist?

I have several SF engines, but want to model interchange with the MKT without having to buy an expensive, hard to find MKT 1950s engine.

Thanks,

Mike

[Morpar]

I'm sure someone will cite an example where one road's locomotive would he waiting for a cut of cars at an interchange but my understanding is that would not be the norm. The cars at an interchange are treated like any other industry, where your road's train would set out and/or pick up cars from another road. I know the interchanges with the Monon and the Pennsy here in Frankfort were that way. I have those interchanges modeled in my yard as well as another a little way outside of town which will basically consist of a spur off the main line and a crossing a little ways away.

[NVSRR]

I can site such.  ESPN. Would run from thier branch at sinking spring into reading yard t and back to do the Interchange at the yard.  Instead of I. Sinking spring itself.  Not sure of how that came about with NS and ESPN but that has been the norm for decades there.

 

shane

[dehusman]

mam

Did one railroad ever allow another road's engine to ferry the second railroad's cars any distance on the second railroad before dropping them off for the second railroad's engines to take over? e.g., Did a group of cars meant for the MKT ever allow a SF engine to carry that consist of cars any distance on MKT lines before they were dropped off for an MKT engine to take over the consist?

Sorta, kinda yes.

As mentioned on a yard to yard interchange in a larger terminal, one railroad delivering to another might operate from the connection to the other railroad's yard where there the interchange track is located.

The problem is that once railroad A's engine and cars gets on railroad B, it's now a train, which means that railroad A has to have crews qualified on railroad B's rules and has to get orders/bulletins/warrants from railroad B and a copy of railroad B's timetable, general orders, etc.  If it's in a terminal where everything is yard limits then a lot of that goes away, but if it's not a terminal then it can become problematic.

mam

I have several SF engines, but want to model interchange with the MKT without having to buy an expensive, hard to find MKT 1950s engine.

I'm not understanding the problem.  If you are modeling the ATSF and don't want to have to buy an MKT engine, just put in a switch and a track, call it the MKT interchange.  Put a cut of cars on the track from the MKT, the ATSF picks up the cars from the MKT, sets out the cars from the ATSF and goes on it's merry way.  Why make it complicated?

[wjstix]

I will see if I can find it on YouTube somewhere, but there was a documentary done maybe 1990 by (IIRC) the public television station in Duluth-Superior, about railroad and shipping transportation in the "Twin Ports".

Anyway, in one section, it follows a CNW engine crew who are working an interchange with BN. CNW didn't serve Duluth directly, it was only in Superior Wisconsin. The engines took the cars across the BN (former NP) swing bridges across St.Louis Bay to Duluth, left them in I believe BN's Rice's Point yard, and then returned with just the engine to Superior. They explained that the CNW could drop off cars at the BN yard, but could not pick up any cars BN had that would go to the CNW. BN would have to have it's own crew and engine take those cars across to Superior, leave them at the CNW yard, and return light to Duluth. 

My understanding is that arrangement is very common if the railroads don't have a sort of "neutral ground" interchange track or yard. A railroad can drop off cars to another railroad's yard, but then must return empty. That's the advantage of having a third railroad involved, that can take cars from railroad A, deliver them to railroad B, and then take cars from B and move them back to A (or to C or D). Examples would be the Lake Superior Terminal & Transfer railroad in Superior, the Minnesota Commercial (formerly Minnesota Transfer) or Minneapolis, Northfield & Southern in the Minneapolis-St.Paul area, or the Belt Ry. Co. of Chicago.

If a large metropolitan area was served by several railroads, it would not be unusual for them to get together to create a new terminal/transfer railroad that each of the area's railroads owned jointly, specifically to speed up the transfer of cars between the various railroads.

[zugmann]

wjstix

They explained that the CNW could drop off cars at the BN yard, but could not pick up any cars BN had that would go to the CNW. BN would have to have it's own crew and engine take those cars across to Superior, leave them at the CNW yard, and return light to Duluth. 

I worked at a yard with an adjacent railroad and we did just that.  Ran their cars to their yard, and came back lite.  Then they'd bring cars for us into our yard, and return lite.   

Other places you may run an adjacent railroad's cars further into their line a bit (or into a yard) - usually due to there being no great place to leave cars at the interchange itself (or no place to get the engines around said cars). 

 And there are times if we have a lot of cars, we may meet them to do a hot handoff.   

 

It's not a fact about it being complicated - but just what needs to be done to get cars from company A to company B. 

[NittanyLion]

Yes, here's an example.

This here is Norfolk Southern's Island Ave Yard. Those cars sitting there are waiting for either the Allegheny Valley to pick up or are drop offs from the AVR. To get there, an AVR train has to cross over at CP Bloom to get from their tracks to Island Ave.  It requires a 3.8 mile trip down the NS.  

The AVR and Buffalo and Pittsburgh meet at roughly this point near the village of Gibsonia. A mile south of there, there's a grade crossing marked as AVR and a mile north, one marked BPRR.  They interchange here in Evans City.  That's about a 12 mile trip over the B&P to get to that point

[Overmod]

It seems to me that the most useful way to 'explain' this action is with what zug called a 'hot handoff' -- with the cut being shoved on a track well concealed by scenery so the power in even a short interchange cut wouldn't actually be seen, and the ATSF engine coupling to the point of the shove and connecting air before the "MKT" hidden engine is cut off.

[BEAUSABRE]

zugmann

Ran their cars to their yard, and came back lite.  Then they'd bring cars for us into our yard, and return lite.   

Often known as a transfer run. Generally, agreements with the Brotherhoods required returning light after delivering the cars to the other railroad - that way, both railroad's men got work. Sometimes, railroads either bought or converted locomotives specfically for what was generally a heavy tonnage, low speed train. In days of steam, 0-8-2's , 0-10-0's, 0-10-2's.

cnoverted from 2-8-2

bought

bought

Diesels such as the SD-38 with intermediate (2000) horsepower, but lots of tractive effort from six traction motors. They were aso used by railroads like the B&LE with its heavy, but slow coal and ore trains

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BEAUSABRE]

 

dehusman

The problem is that once railroad A's engine and cars gets on railroad B, it's now a train, which means that railroad A has to have crews qualified on railroad B's rules and has to get orders/bulletins/warrants from railroad B and a copy of railroad B's timetable, general orders, etc.

Which was common. For several years after high school, my dad was a fireman out of the Louisiana & Arkansas' Greenville Roundhouse. The division was from Shreveport, LA to Dallas, TX. But, the L&A didn't run to Dallas on its own rails, the last dozen or so miles were via trackage rights with the Santa Fe and the train tied up in an ATSF yard. So dad, along with all other crewmen on the division, was qualified on and had the approprite rulebook, timetable, etc. for the Santa Fe

[BEAUSABRE]

Transfer cabeese, a shack on a flatcar

Which sometimes got pretty fancy

 

 

[mvlandsw]

NittanyLion

Yes, here's an example.

This here is Norfolk Southern's Island Ave Yard. Those cars sitting there are waiting for either the Allegheny Valley to pick up or are drop offs from the AVR. To get there, an AVR train has to cross over at CP Bloom to get from their tracks to Island Ave.  It requires a 3.8 mile trip down the NS.  

[quote user="NittanyLion"]

I used to make that same move over Conrail tracks for the Chessie System. 

Before the connection at Bloom was built to get Amtrak into the PRR/Conrail Pittsburgh station the interchamge was done at Pine Creek on two interchange tracks between the B&O Pittsburgh & Western subdivision and the PRR Conemaugh subdivision.

Mark

[dehusman]

BEAUSABRE

The division was from Shreveport, LA to Dallas, TX. But, the L&A didn't run to Dallas on its own rails, the last dozen or so miles were via trackage rights with the Santa Fe and the train tied up in an ATSF yard.

Slightly different situation.  In the case you described every train operating into Dallas, every through freight crew had to be qualified.  You are correct that was not uncommon.

An interchange move would be something maybe one crew per day would do.  If it's a yard to yard transfer in a terminal then every yard crew could be qualified.  If its a single local then that crew would be qualified.  

I probably overstated it as "problem", but it would have to be a "consideration".  It also matters how far the move is.  Just coming out on another road's make a runaround or a "poke" is one thing, running for 20 miles is another.

[AEP528]

There are two present-day examples near me, where a short line runs into a regional's yard for interchange, and where the same regional runs into a Class 1 yard for interchange. In the Class 1's case, the interchange tracks were removed entirely. Note the common theme - the lesser railroad has to absorb the cost of crew training, and the larger railroad doesn't spend money running to the interchange tracks.

Regarding transfer runs, I've seen a picture of Commercial Street in Portland, Maine where there are two transfer runs in the street trackage. One railroad returning light, and the other railroad right behind it with transfer cars. I can't remember where I saw that picture, and the Internet is failing me.

[cv_acr]

mam

Dear Folk,

Usually, one railroad leaves cars at an interchange for another railroad.

...

I have several SF engines, but want to model interchange with the MKT without having to buy an expensive, hard to find MKT 1950s engine.

 

I'm not seeing the problem. A basic interchange track where cars are left for the other railway to pick up is the BEST way to model a connection to another railroad without featuring engines and trains of the other railroad.

Your train just picks up the cars that are there and drops off the cars for the other railroad. The other railroad actually coming to pick up those cars is virtual/imaginary.