How is this possible?
Relics of Past Railroad Royalty by Craig Sanders, on Flickr
I read this as restricting, Rule 290. How can this signal exist in the face of opposing traffic? Am I missing something?
Regards, Ed
Signal malfunction?
I didn't work a lot of position light territory. In color light territory, some automatics on upgrades would have a "G" plate affixed to the mast, and freight trains could pass these at restricted speed if the signal was at "stop and proceed".
Could the train we see be heading downgrade? And could the "restricting" on the automatic in the pic be for such purpose, i.e., so that trains on the upgrade wouldn't have to stop first, but could instead pass at restricted speed?
OldEnginemanSignal malfunction?
Gotta be. Even a stop & proceed certainly shouldn't give opposing trains any kind of signal authority. Obviously there's something occupying the block!
PRR_PL by Edmund, on Flickr
OldEnginemanCould the train we see be heading downgrade?
The old PRR Fort Wayne district. Flat as, well, Indiana I don't have a picture but IIRC, the Pennsy used a triangle marker for a grade signal. I've seen the yellow (G) disk, too.
Interesting
Cheers, Ed
Is this a controlled signal or an intermediate signal?
And if it is a controlled signal, does this system allow the Dispatcher to set up a switching signal* at this location?
*A switching signal appears as a restricting signal, but stays up when the block is occupied. If there are opposing signals at a controlled location both will display "restricting" in this situation.
The purpose of a switching signal is to allow a train or engine to make multiple moves in and out of the applicable block(s) without having to contact the Dispatcher for permission to make each move or change direction.
While I am not familiar with the legacy PRR signal rules, in my area there are no intermediate signals left capable of displaying "stop and proceed". They all have "R" plates, which change the indication to "restricting", effectively a grade signal that applies to all trains. Perhaps this is the position light signal's version of a intermediate restricting signal?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The caption on Flickr states 'on a ferry move'. I'm not famailiar with USA R/R signalling at all (altho' I am very interested in learning) but my first thought was that the 'special' train was running in reverse for a short distance, with a pilot loco on the point, out of view, in order to complete a particular manoeuvre. Paul
"It's the South Shore Line, Jim - but not as we know it".
Hi, Lazers
You could substitute "deadhead" move in place of ferry. Perhaps "empty stock" in UK parlance? Where I live in Cleveland, the 765 steam locomotive will spend several weeks running on a portion of a former B&O line that ran from Cleveland to Akron, Ohio.
Thus, the "ferry" move would bring the locomotive, tool cars and usually a supply of coal in gondolas from the usual maintenance facility which is located near Fort Wayne, Indiana about 200 miles to the west.
Regardless of the direction of the locomotive and train in the photo the signal shown should be "protecting" the entrance of the particular "block" or segment of track which is occupied. It should be showing an absolute stop. So, as I understand basic signaling, the lower aspect, i.e. the two diaghonal lights, should not be illuminated, thus indicating to any following train do not enter ( or pass this point) until a more favorable signal is displayed.
In certain automatic block signal territories a dispatcher will set the normal direction of travel on a section of single track so that all signals in the opposing direction are displaying STOP.
Again, in my understanding, if a train is heading toward you as the one in the photo certainly seems to be, there shouldn't be any kind of signal displaying anything but STOP for a train approaching in the opposite direction.
This was photographed on the fromer main line of the Pennsylvania Railroad between Pittsburgh and Chicago. At one time one of the busiest and fastest stretches of track in the U.S. With reductions in traffic and some segments even completely removed I'm sure the signal system has been downsized. This still doesn't seem to "ring true" of the signal as displayed in the photo, though.
I 'read' the train as moving forward - note the two small flags and the position of the valve gear.
How are the relays arranged in this system? The signal has 'dropped' at this point, the train having passed it (hard for me to tell how far due to 'heavy telephoto'). On some systems, the color-light system on the ex-Erie Pascack Valley line's being one, passing the signal location causes the opposing indication to return to permissive since the indication behind the train has dropped to red, and the train is occupying the block the signal now controls. (I did not particularly like this as a teen railfan on a bike, as it would fool you into thinking a train was coming when, in fact, one had just passed the other way...)
If in fact the opposing 'permissive' were set up to be no higher than 'restricting' I would then expect to see just this aspect...
OvermodOn some systems, the color-light system on the ex-Erie Pascack Valley line's being one, passing the signal location causes the opposing indication to return to permissive since the indication behind the train has dropped to red, and the train is occupying the block the signal now controls.
If I'm understanding your description correctly I encountered the same thing leaving St. Louis over the McArthur Bridge on the former TRRA and Chicago & Alton, I believe.
Watch here at 3:20 and again at 4:00 as the tail-end of my train leaves the trailing block:
I wasn't used to seeing this type of signaling but, yep, there it is.
Still, It has to be an anomally to see both a permissive, though restrictive, indication AND a locomotive headlight in the same view!
I find to my horror that, with all the hours I spent railfanning the various ex-PRR lines under cat, often right at signal bridges, I cannot remember once observing what an absolute stop (which is how I interpreted three horizontal on top aspect, only middle light of lower aspect) turned to as the train passed. Perusal of historic photographs and video should give us enough, but I can't do that properly, especially from a phone.
Yes, it was fun to see those big U34CHs and occasional E unit combos (with solid 1937 ATSF stainless consists!) coming at full tilt with a green aspect to the rear.
gmpullmanIf I'm understanding your description correctly I encountered the same thing leaving St. Louis over the McArthur Bridge on the former TRRA and Chicago & Alton, I believe. Watch here at 3:20 and again at 4:00 as the tail-end of my train leaves the trailing block:
gmpullmanAgain, in my understanding, if a train is heading toward you as the one in the photo certainly seems to be, there shouldn't be any kind of signal displaying anything but STOP for a train approaching in the opposite direction.
That's an intermediate signal. It's not capable of displaying a STOP. Most restrictive aspect it can give, is well, a restricting. And assuming these are the former-CR set of rules, a restricting can be displayed as the three lights horizontal with a number plate, or the combination as shown above. Same rule - same rule number, same everything according to the rulebook. just different lights. It seems weird, but I've seen other oddities out there. Old signal systems and the like...
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
OvermodI cannot remember once observing what an absolute stop (which is how I interpreted three horizontal on top aspect, only middle light of lower aspect) turned to as the train passed.
Under Pennsy, that single, lower middle light would make it a "Stop and proceed".
Without that lower light (and without a number plate), then you'd have a Stop.
zugmannUnder Pennsy, that single, lower middle light would make it a "Stop and proceed". Without that lower light (and without a number plate), then you'd have a Stop.
It was my observation for a great many years (of the electrified Corridor and the lines to Harrisburg) that the 'stop and proceed' aspect (as described) nearly always heralded the advent of a train going the other way, usually at fairly high speed. Now it starts to seem peculiar that 'stop and proceed' would be used in such situations.
On the other hand, it does make perfect sense that on a high-speed, densely-trafficked main line, most 'stop' indications would be conditional, and that it would take a dispatching failure to actually put a train in sight of such a signal on controlled track ... in which case, presumably, the signal would indicate as zug indicates.
It's not a malfunction if the bottom head doesn't even allow for a horizontal (eqaul to "red")...
It's an intermediate signal, not a controlled signal, so Restricting is definitely a possible default indication.
A "home"/controlled signal at a controlled interlocking will show "Stop". Automatic intermediate signals will show "Stop and Proceed" or "Restricting", not "Stop".
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Chris is correct, it can't display "stop", restricting might be its most restrictive aspect. We also don't know what its a signal in advance to or whether its even in block signal territory, it could be an approach signal to an interlocking or something else.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanChris is correct, it can't display "stop", restricting might be its most restrictive aspect.
If the lower head is not illuminated it can display stop.
As I understand it anyway. Many of the absolute signals used two red roundels in the horizontal position in later years making them more like the B&O color position signals. This was also done on some, if not all, of the former position light signals on the Northeast Corridor by Amtrak.
PRR_Positional_Signal by Edmund, on Flickr
The signal in question has a number plate.
dehusmanThe signal in question has a number plate.
OK,
Thanks for explaining.
OldEngineman Signal malfunction? I didn't work a lot of position light territory. In color light territory, some automatics on upgrades would have a "G" plate affixed to the mast, and freight trains could pass these at restricted speed if the signal was at "stop and proceed".
First, I would agree that Restricting is the most restrictive indication this signal in question can display.
Regarding Old Engineman's Stop and Proceed with a G plate. On many railroads a red signal with a number plate and a G (for grade) or P (for permissive) plate was not a Stop and Proceed signal. That extra G/P plate made the signal a Restricting.
Jeff
jeffhergertRegarding Old Engineman's Stop and Proceed with a G plate. On many railroads a red signal with a number plate and a G (for grade) or P (for permissive) plate was not a Stop and Proceed signal. That extra G/P plate made the signal a Restricting.
Norac 11th edition rule 291 (Stop and Proceed) reads in part:
Where identified by special instruction, or where a letter G (grade marker) or a letter R (restricting marker) is displayed in addition to a number plate as part of these aspects, freight trains may observe the signal as though Restricting, Rule 290, were displayed.