Why would a railroad worry about a schedule or T-plan?
First, the yards need to know which train to put the cars on. Not every train goes to the same place, not every train works at the same location, not every train carries the same cars. The yards building the trains need to know the right trains to put the cars on and when to have the trains ready. The yard needs to build the trains right before they are going to depart. If the yard only has 4 departure tracks and build the trains that depart at 9pm, 10pm, 11pm and 1145pm at 6am in the morning, their yard will be full all day and they won't have room to build the trains that run before 9pm.
The crews and the dispatcher needs to know what the train is going to do. Having the trains do the same thing every day means the crews and the dispatcher have better chance of doing things right more often. The train will be on the right track to do its work, the dispatcher may be able to get non-workers around workers, the crew will know what they are picking up.
Second is that real railroads have to worry about resources (crews, engines, cabooses/EOT's). Through freight crews are based out of one terminal and run to another terminal, get their rest and come back. Typically that away from home terminal doesn't have an extra board, so the dispatch office and crew callers need to know how many trains they will have coming to make sure they have enough crews at the terminals, particularly the away from home terminal. It takes 8-12 hours for a train to run from the home terminal to the away terminal, then 8-10 hours to rest the crew, so the people planning crews are working 16-22 hours out at the earliest. On the flip side the crews get penalty payments if they aren't used within 16 hours of being rested at the away terminal, so the railroad can't afford to hold them away for too long. And there is a fixed number of crews. If you keep too many at the away terminal you won't have enough rested at home to protect those trains. Huge balancing act.
With power and cabooses/EOT's, there is a turn time too to fuel and service the engines. The locomotive group and mechanical department have to know how many engines and whern they are coming to figure out which power to use on which train.
Those are just some of the reasons the railroads have schedules and track what trains do and how long it takes to get over the road. At some point or another in my career I've had to be in charge of managing all of those aspects on a real railroad. Most of that is not done real time during an op session, but it all goes into how the layout owner sets up his operations. Deciding which train carries the set out for the junction isn't something the switch crew decides during an op session, but it is something the owner has to set up.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Dave,I have went dead on the law before reaching my away or home terminal due to heavy switching and waiting on track time. I recall one time we made good time over the Cincinnati Div only to go dead at Limeville after waiting 4 hours for a inbound track at Russell to be cleared.
I heard on my scanner where NS crews went DOL at Marion,Ohio or even here in Bucyrus.
Sounds like you was in the office instead of train service.. To much can go wrong on the road things like emergencies,long waits in sidings, delays at idustries while a trucker moves his truck or a forklift operator moves scrap pallets and other items that's to close to the track for safe movement.
I think today all that is moved by a schedule is UPS trains and that's only because UPS demands on time service. Let's face the truth those UPS trains has rights over Amtrak trains and any other train. A local or a sweeper has little or no priority.
Other then that terminal dwell time can take up to 40 hours before a car continues it joureny. All of todays railroads is struggling with terminal dwell time and there is no exceptions.
Now add the mandatory rest and there may not be any rested crews available for several hours.
As far as being at your away terminal I have waited up to 16 hours before being called--there is no money(not sure about today) in riding a crew cab back to your home terminal.
I was railroading for one reason..It was not because of my love for trains nope not at all,it was the paycheck.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Just because the CSXT is poorly executing the plan doesn't mean there isn't a plan. Over my career there have been times when certain corridors have had over 100% recrew rate and there have been times when over a 380 mile crew run over some of the densest trafficed lines, over 95% of the crews made it within their hours of service, and most of those that didn't had mechanical problems or were blocked by trains with mechanical problems.
Don't have any idea what they are doing now, but that wasn't the question, the question was about the 1940's and railroading was very different from now. Having a train die on the hours of service was a relatively rare event back then. Crew districts were shorter, trains were shorter and work took less time. Back then crew costs were one of the largest parts of operating costs (5 and 6 man crews) so the railroads minimized crew costs. Today fuel is more than crew costs on many runs.
dehusmancrew districts were shorter, trains were shorter and work took less time.
Dave,That is true but,you are overlooking the problems that faced the crews. Nothing has changed as far as over the road problems. Inferior trains waited on prioritory trains,water stops had to be made,in some areas helpers added and removed, road emergencies still happen.
Railroads still had to deal with terminal dwell times along with transfer times and choke points like Chicago,St.Louis,KC where it could take several days for cars to move around to their proper interchange.
Even in the 40s the railroads wasn't the fastest mode of transportation because it could take a car weeks to get from point A on the NKP to point B on the U.P.
John Kneiling The Professional Inconoclast covered the issues of railroads in his column in Trains Magazine.
BRAKIE Dave,I have went dead on the law before reaching my away or home terminal due to heavy switching and waiting on track time. I recall one time we made good time over the Cincinnati Div only to go dead at Limeville after waiting 4 hours for a inbound track at Russell to be cleared. I heard on my scanner where NS crews went DOL at Marion,Ohio or even here in Bucyrus. Sounds like you was in the office instead of train service.. To much can go wrong on the road things like emergencies,long waits in sidings, delays at idustries while a trucker moves his truck or a forklift operator moves scrap pallets and other items that's to close to the track for safe movement. I think today all that is moved by a schedule is UPS trains and that's only because UPS demands on time service. Let's face the truth those UPS trains has rights over Amtrak trains and any other train. A local or a sweeper has little or no priority. Other then that terminal dwell time can take up to 40 hours before a car continues it joureny. All of todays railroads is struggling with terminal dwell time and there is no exceptions. Now add the mandatory rest and there may not be any rested crews available for several hours. As far as being at your away terminal I have waited up to 16 hours before being called--there is no money(not sure about today) in riding a crew cab back to your home terminal. I was railroading for one reason..It was not because of my love for trains nope not at all,it was the paycheck.
The problem is thinking today's use of 'schedule' is the same as it was when there were time table schedules. Freight trains today have service schedules. Those that run daily or nearly so, will have planned times at the originating yard. For most trains, those aren't set in stone. If the train is ready earlier or later, the train may run earlier or later. Times downstream at locations where planned work will be done, estimates at best anyway, will be changed to reflect that day's train.
'Schedule' also refers to planned events. In today's world, that may be more relevant than the time element. Not every train will work every intermediate yard in it's journey. Train MAG1 (M for manifest) originates at A and may work B and D on it's way to G. Train MAG2 also originates at A and goes to G, but it works C and E. Train MAG3, also A to G but isn't scheduled to do intermediate work, it's a train of cars for connections at G. Those three manifests are the day to day plan. It lets everyone concerned in planning which cars need to make which trains.
It also is possible to vary from the plan when things might go wrong. There are more cars at E than MAG2 can pick up. MAG3 has available capacity and might be called to pick up the overflow at E. Once in a while variations happen. When variations from the plan become the norm, it's time for a new plan.
Jeff
dehusman Just because the CSXT is poorly executing the plan doesn't mean there isn't a plan. Over my career there have been times when certain corridors have had over 100% recrew rate and there have been times when over a 380 mile crew run over some of the densest trafficed lines, over 95% of the crews made it within their hours of service, and most of those that didn't had mechanical problems or were blocked by trains with mechanical problems. Don't have any idea what they are doing now, but that wasn't the question, the question was about the 1940's and railroading was very different from now. Having a train die on the hours of service was a relatively rare event back then. Crew districts were shorter, trains were shorter and work took less time. Back then crew costs were one of the largest parts of operating costs (5 and 6 man crews) so the railroads minimized crew costs. Today fuel is more than crew costs on many runs.
And they had 16 hours to work instead of 12 hours.
Jeff,First thanks for the explaining "service scheduling". My understanding was that applied to UPS and stack trains.
I still see hundreds of boxcars in use while watching rail cams..It good to see boxcars still have a place in today's railroads.
BRAKIEJeff,First thanks for the explaining "service scheduling". My understanding was that applied to UPS and stack trains.
As I said in a previous post, ALL UP trains have a schedule (service schedule), even extras and trains in the "unscheduled" network (bulk trains). NO trains on the UP have a timetable schedule (haven't existed on the UP after about 1985).
The BNSF is roughly the same.
dehusmanAs I said in a previous post, ALL UP trains have a schedule (service schedule), even extras and trains in the "unscheduled" network (bulk trains). NO trains on the UP have a timetable schedule (haven't existed on the UP after about 1985).
Maybe on the U.P but,I know without a doubt terminal dwell time speaks loudly on every train being schuedled.24- 40 hours is a long time for loaded freight cars to be standing still.
Jeff's explaination of "service scheduling" makes sense.
Still there's the Federal mandated crew rest laws that must be followed and I suspect the lack of rested crews might come into play even with "service scheduling". .
jeffhergertThe problem is thinking today's use of 'schedule' is the same as it was when there were time table schedules. Freight trains today have service schedules. Those that run daily or nearly so, will have planned times at the originating yard. For most trains, those aren't set in stone. If the train is ready earlier or later, the train may run earlier or later. Times downstream at locations where planned work will be done, estimates at best anyway, will be changed to reflect that day's train. 'Schedule' also refers to planned events.
Correct.
There are actually four "schedules" for every train. There is the base schedule, the t-plan, then every individual train gets a copy of that base schedule for itself, then there is the "working" schedule that reflects what the train is actually doing. Comparing the train's schedule to the working schedule indicates whether the train is ahead, on time or behind schedule. If the train is due out of Charlie at 315 pm and it departs at 250 pm its 25" AOT, if it departs at 315 pm its on time, if it departs at 345pm its 30" late. As delays and movements are reported, all the downline times in the working schedule are adjusted accordingly. If the train is delayed 20" at Charlie, then in the working schedule, all the downline arrivals and departures are adjusted by 30 minutes. If Jeff makes a good run and makes up 15" then all the times are advanced by 15".
Everytime Jeff gets paperwork for his train, there is a train summary (knicknamed a "BU") on his paperwork that shows the working schedule of the train, how far ahead or behind it is, plus all the scheduled set outs and pickups, loads, empties, tons, feet at each location along the trip.
For an "unscheduled" train (coal , grain, ore, rock, ethanol, oil, etc). There is a base schedule, but it generically starts at midnight. Then when an actual train is created, the computer starts the train's copy of the schedule at the time the train is going to run and then it works just like any other schedule. The train is ahead or late based on the schedule created for the train.
dehusmanThere are actually four "schedules" for every train. There is the base schedule, the t-plan, then every individual train gets a copy of that base schedule for itself, then there is the "working" schedule that reflects what the train is actually doing.
I'm sure the shippers/recievers is jumping for joy while wondering where their cars(s) are and when they will arrive.
That is one problem of "service scheduling" railroads is yet to overcome.
BRAKIEI'm sure the shippers/recievers is jumping for joy while wondering where their cars(s) are and when they will arrive.
Actually they do like it because that is exactly the question that all this answers.
If you just use the t-plan or the base plan, chances are any information on when the cars will get any place will be 100% wrong. For example if the plan is for a train to take 30 hours to run from Pittsburgh to Chicago. But because your railroad is screwed up its going to take an extra 24 hours of run time to get to Chicago. And because the yards are plugged its going to take and extra 24 hours to process through the yards. By having a working schedule and the ability to add those delays into the schedule, the actual train now shows taking 78 hours to run from Pittsburgh to Chicago. If the customer looked at when a car was going to get to Chicago based on the base schedule they would think it was going to get there in 30 hours (WRONG). If they look at a car and the working schedules are used they will see that the car will get there in 78 hours (more correct).
I don't see why you are fighting this so hard, the first computer scheduling systems have been around since the mid-late 1960's and car scheduling has been around since the early 1970's. Most railroads are on their 2nd-4th generation of software. The formative versions of this software was being written about the time the last steam engines were being removed from regular service.
Putting this in a model railroad perspective, its not really all that different from many model railroads.
When an owner sits down and figures out what trains he's is going to run, when and what they are going to carry, that making a T-Plan.
When an owner uses the plan he has made to make up job cards or line ups that he gives to a train that tells an operator when his train runs and what it is supposed to do, that's the base schedule.
When an operator compares his job card with the layout room clock or sequence list and says to himself, "Wow I'm running late, I'm not going to be able to get in before the next train is supposed to leave." he has essentially made a working schedule.
Its not as hard as you are making it.
dehusman Everytime Jeff gets paperwork for his train, there is a train summary (knicknamed a "BU") on his paperwork that shows the working schedule of the train, how far ahead or behind it is, plus all the scheduled set outs and pickups, loads, empties, tons, feet at each location along the trip.
You know it's not a good day when the 'BU' (It's part of the old computer command to get the train summary.) says you're figured to arrive at the other end of the run AFTER you're 12 hours working time are up. I've seen that a few times, but usually we make it in. And usually with plenty of time to spare.
dehusman And because the yards are plugged its going to take and extra 24 hours to process through the yards.
Dave,Try up to 40 hours at some choke point terminals.
We modelers don't have the issues real railroads have including track out of service due to a MOW work window,lack of rested crews,in some cases a shortage of locomotives. We don't classify then run 12,000' trains either.
We sure enough don't follow operation and safety rules that eats time,spend time in a siding,waiting outside a yard for a inbound track to open,hit vehicles at crossings,trespassers, track speed restrictions,speed restrictions through switches and curves or have a air hose to pop 4,990 feet from the headend.
Comparing model train operation to the real thing is like comparing a duck to a goose. No where close.