I bought 10 of the new Atlas N Scale 31000 gallon tank cars and they are quite detailed and run nicely. In wanting to run them as a train and as prototypical as possible, I want to know more about the hopper cars of sand that run on the rear and in between the locomotives and first tank car.
Do all crude oil trains run with the hopper cars? The ones I see on the BNSF have them. However, I have seen them without the hopper cars and wonder if it is a railroad preference? I doubt highly if it is a difference between loaded and empty as the empty tanks are as hazardous or more so than the loads.
Appreciate your feedback. Thank you.
Ted
theodorefiskDo all crude oil trains run with the hopper cars?
By Federal law loaded cars placarded flammable liquid have to have at least one car of cover if they are solid trains of hazmat. Doesn't have to be a hopper, it can be any type of car and it doesn't have to be a load, though for train handling, a load is better, and it doesn't have to be loaded with sand.
The ones I see on the BNSF have them. However, I have seen them without the hopper cars and wonder if it is a railroad preference?
Not all unit trains are flammable liquid, some are combustible liquid (requiring no cover) or may be empty or may have a tank car as cover. Whether or not cover is required is Federal law. Which car is used for cover is railroad/shipper preference.
I doubt highly if it is a difference between loaded and empty as the empty tanks are as hazardous or more so than the loads.
There is a difference between loads and empties, but with a unit train it still may boil down to one car of cover.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
In the US, unit trains of crude oil (and ethanol) will require a "buffer" car between the engine(s) and hazardous cars. Loaded cars require up to 5 buffer cars if available, but if 5 are not available, a minimum of one car is required. (The wording is usually along the lines of "must not be nearer than the 6th car to an engine, working or not, if train length permits. If train length doesn't permit, must be towards the middle of the train no closer than the 2nd car from an engine, working or not." It's the loop-hole of "train length permitting" that allows unit trains to run with only one buffer car between engine(s) and cars.) Empty hazardous cars require only one buffer car.
If you are seeing tank cars next to an engine, they are not cars (loaded or empty)assigned to carry hazmat. Or the hazmat the tank cars are assigned to does not have a placement restriction. There are a few classes of hazmat that have no restrictions.
Buffer cars for unit trains normally are loaded. That's why you see some cars, especially old covered hopper types marked for specific unit train service. In a pinch any car could be used, even an empty. I once saw an empty gondola being used as a buffer car between the end of an ethanol train and the rear DP unit.
Jeff
David,
Doesn't the Federal Law change? In other words, folks who have layouts in the 60s-80s might have to adhere to different requirements than moden modelers.
Per pg 8-9 of this useful guide, the requirement is actually five cars of distance between a placarded tank car and the loco (copy and paste if you can't get it to open):
http://www.mcor-nmra.org/Publications/Articles/Tank%20Cars%20101%20for%20Model%20Railroaders.pdf
Doesn't the hopper or boxcar function as a buffer car?
The quantity of buffer cars required was covered in the two posts before your post. If you have a unit train, train length does not permit 5 buffers, therefore they can use the minimum of one.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
The joys of railfaning has revealed.
I have notice the covered hoppers used as buffers has "Buffer car service only" on the sides.
Loaded trains need one buffer car behind the engines and loads and on the end of the train.I've seen a few with DPUs on the end.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Thank You
Would a buffer car be needed if all a railroad was doing is switching one or 2 cars?
Joe Staten Island West
kasskaboose Doesn't the Federal Law change? In other words, folks who have layouts in the 60s-80s might have to adhere to different requirements than moden modelers.
Federal laws can change, but not this one its been the same since the mid 70's.
Per pg 8-9 of this useful guide, the requirement is actually five cars of distance between a placarded tank car and the loco
What it says is that the hazmat car can be no closer than the 6th car form the engine, "train length permitting", but not closer than the 2nd car. What that means in English you have to have 5 cars of cover (to make the hazmat car the 6th car) but if there aren't enough cars to make cover (train length doesn't permit) then it has to have at least one car of cover. Since a unit train is ALL hazmat, train length does not permit 5 cars of cover, therefore the railroad has to provide at least 1 car of cover (hence the one buffer car on a hazmat unit train).
(copy and paste if you can't get it to open):
Thanks, but don't need to, I passed my first hazmat rules test in 1979 and have had to take and pass a hazmat test every year or two until 2017 when I retired.
joe323 Would a buffer car be needed if all a railroad was doing is switching one or 2 cars?
But in practical terms, it doesn't matter. You work with the buffer car. You have to have the buffer to leave with the loads, so you have to have it anyway. Its already coupled to the locomotive, so otherwise you'd arrive with your empties, cut them off, find somewhere to stash the buffer, recouple to the empties, pull the loads, spot the loads, spot the empties, go get your buffer, and then grab the loads. Or you can immediately pull the loads, spot them somewhere, cut them off, spot the empties, and pick up your loads. Way more efficient, in time, moves, and track space.
Thank you all for your thoughts on this matter. It is interesting that I specified the subject of my query as 'crude oil tank trains' and some of the replies had nothing to do with crude oil, but other types of hazmat. Even though I have only 10 tankcars, I will be running them with two buffer cars, as I see on the BNSF. Again, the replies were helpful.
theodorefisk Even though I have only 10 tankcars, I will be running them with two buffer cars, as I see on the BNSF.
Only do that if you have a DPU engine one rear end. If you have a buffer car on both ends and you only have engines on the head end you are violating Federal law.
The standard is the hazmat has to be the 6th car from the engine "train length permitting". If you have two buffer cars then train length would allow you to provide two cars of cover.
The reason we discuss other hazmat is that there aren't "oil train" rules there are "hazmat" rules. Crude oil is just another flammable or cumbustible liquid. Its not even a really bad hazmat. There is lots of stuff that is waaaaaaaaaaay worse.
dehusmanOnly do that if you have a DPU engine one rear end. If you have a buffer car on both ends and you only have engines on the head end you are violating Federal law.
The joys of railfaning has reveal buffer cars on the end of some tank trains while others did not have a buffer on the end.
I suspect the DPUs was removed enroute on those trains since they was no longer needed..
This man has two buffers on the front and a single buffer on the rear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBZcjjxooao
On the BNSF, the CBR trains have buffer cars on both ends, so maybe you want to advise BNSF they are violating some federal law. I would imagine it does it due to safety concerns. As far as my layout, federal laws do not apply. Further, I have been USDOT hazmat certified in the past and know full well the range of chemicals the rails and trucks move, many very nasty stuff that transportation companies do have the right to deny service for.
I've seen buffers on both ends on a railroad that doesn't use DPUs at all. My understanding is that is a plan ahead for running the power around a whole train without having to do the moves to get the buffer car to the other end of the train.
NittanyLionI've seen buffers on both ends on a railroad that doesn't use DPUs at all.
They may have gotten a waiver from the FRA to let them leave the buffer on the rear (from a practical standpoint, two cars is not significantly more protection than one). I do know that if you had a general freight train that had at least two cover cars, they had best be used as cover. That's the law.
I watch Railstream a lot, and the CN up close and personal,and I see buffer cars on each end, with out a DPU.
I don't know if they are crude or ethanol.
I always thought it was because the train could move in either direction, and the buffer car was in place.
Mike.
My You Tube
dehusmanThey may have gotten a waiver from the FRA to let them leave the buffer on the rear (from a practical standpoint, two cars is not significantly more protection than one). I do know that if you had a general freight train that had at least two cover cars, they had best be used as cover. That's the law.
As was stated earlier:
Our rules state that hazmat needs to be 6th car from engines (occupied or not), but if length does not permit, the hazmat must be in the middle. So yes, if you had (let's say) 4 LPG cars and 2 non-placarded cars, the 2 non -placarded cars would have to be before and after your LPG cars. So your hazmat would be in positions 2,3,4, and 5. That's in our rulebook, which must have had the FRA blessing. To put both cover cars on the head end would actually be a violation.
Again, rules vary between railroads.
Just about all out unit ethanol or oil trains around here (non-DP) have buffers on both ends Allows for pusher service.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
The federal law saws:
2. When train length does not permit, placarded car must be placed near the middle of the train, but not nearer than the second car from an engine or occupied caboose
That is a change made at least after 2013. Prior to that there was no mention of being near the middle of the train.
For modelers between about 1975 and about 2013 I would be correct. For modelers after about 2013 I would be incorrect.
Ironically the regulations prior to the 1970's also said that the hazmat should go near the middle of the train.
FWIW the joys of railfaning has reveal several things including ethanol and crude oil tanks having their ends painted white.
Ok all you pros out there, what were the rules in the 1930's, kinda like to know.
Early hazmat rules were regulated by the Bureau of Explosives and were much simpler. Placards were much simpler and broader (things like "Dangerous", "Flammable", "Explosive", "Corrosive"). Train placement rules were simpler, don't put dangerous cars next to occupied caboose or engine, don't put then next to a car with an open flame, don't put explosives in a train carrying passengers, keep dangerous cars near the middle of the train.
Someplace I have an old PRR BOE instruction book, but can't find it.