I have a vast collection of Railroad DVD's from the start of America railroads to present. I noticed in the modern era (1990's to present) alot of switching in the yards was done by fallen flag EMD GP's, SD's and GE u-boats. Is this common today and are the SW's still being used today?
willy6 I have a vast collection of Railroad DVD's from the start of America railroads to present. I noticed in the modern era (1990's to present) alot of switching in the yards was done by fallen flag EMD GP's, SD's and GE u-boats. Is this common today and are the SW's still being used today?
Yes, it is common.
Yes, SW's are still being used. BNSF had 11 SW1500's, 1 SW1200, 1 SW1000N, and 5 MP15's in 2016.
Driving on Highway 99 last weekend from Manteca to Clovis (CA), I saw a GP and an SW in use by private owners at large grain terminals. I was traveling a wee bit over the speed limit, so I couldn't take proper notes.
Railroads today, aside from using things like existing GP38-2's and such for switching, are buying gen-set switchers new.
Ed
as 7j43k says there there still are a lot of switchers.
The railroads are frugal. Why buy a new switcher when a down graded road switcher still has life in it and can do the work. However because of stricter air pollution requirements replacement of existing locomotives in yard service will be required in many places.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
My recollection is that a BNSF engineer said that he vastly prefers switching with an SD40-2 than a gen-set. I don't know if that's yard, industrial, or way freight.
7j43k My recollection is that a BNSF engineer said that he vastly prefers switching with an SD40-2 than a gen-set. I don't know if that's yard, industrial, or way freight. Ed
An UP Engineer who worked the yard in Roseville CA was overheard saying that a gen-set and a diesel working together could easily do the work of the diesel alone.
willy6Is this common today and are the SW's still being used today?
NS retired the SW1500s but,the exSouthern MP15DCs is still in service.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It seems railroads haven't been buying new switchers in any quantity for a long time. Those SW-1200 / 1500 EMD switchers that are still around go back to the 1960's, and the MP-15 (technically a road switcher - switcher body on road-engine trucks) dates from the 1970's.
Part of it I'm sure is frugality - using what you already have. Why buy new switchers when an old GP-35 or whatever you have will do just as well? Interestingly, railroads are kinda going full circle...100+ years back, railroads were taking the leading wheels off of old 2-6-0 or 2-8-0 engines to convert them to six or eight wheel switchers.
I wonder too if power needs factor into it? Cars are a lot bigger than 50 years ago, more weight. If one 1000-1200 HP switcher can't do the job, why use two 1000 HP switchers, when one 2000 HP road switcher can do the job?
wjstix It seems railroads haven't been buying new switchers in any quantity for a long time. Those SW-1200 / 1500 EMD switchers that are still around go back to the 1960's, and the MP-15 (technically a road switcher - switcher body on road-engine trucks) dates from the 1970's. Part of it I'm sure is frugality - using what you already have. Why buy new switchers when an old GP-35 or whatever you have will do just as well? Interestingly, railroads are kinda going full circle...100+ years back, railroads were taking the leading wheels off of old 2-6-0 or 2-8-0 engines to convert them to six or eight wheel switchers. I wonder too if power needs factor into it? Cars are a lot bigger than 50 years ago, more weight. If one 1000-1200 HP switcher can't do the job, why use two 1000 HP switchers, when one 2000 HP road switcher can do the job?
I'm sure frugality plays a part. Railroads have always been "frugal", to greater or lesser extents. Back in the day, GN de-trucked a buncha old road engines (2-8-0's) and made switchers out of them. Of course, they would have worked fine keeping the lead truck, but tractive effort went up. For "free".
As far as the need for more power: I doubt it. Switchers can pull about as much as a road engine. Just not at road speeds. At low speeds, it's pretty much weight on drivers. BN SW1500's had about 260,000 pounds on the drivers; their GP38-2's had about 263,000 on drivers. Now, we can move the conversation over to SD40-2's (of which there are/were MANY). There you're hovering around 400,000 pounds. ZOWIE!
What GP38-2's and SD40-2's DO have is a toilet. That may even work. Which makes it a road engine. Which means it can also do road switching. If necessary. It's also got road trucks (which SOME SW1500's had). So they're better on trackage at high speeds. So Geep's are far more flexible than basic switchers. Which can be handy at crunch-time.
I will "bet" that BNSF's remaining switchers without road trucks spend all their time in a yard. Which means if you don't have a yard big enough to use a switcher full time, you shouldn't have an old-style switcher. And these days, there's a lot less switching, I think.
Also, be reminded that railroads ARE buying gen-set switchers. Apparently they're kinda, uh, yucky (a technical railroad term). But there's not much in the concept that means that succeeding ones will be. If they can get past "the glory that is GREEN" and just be stunningly efficient and a pleasure to use, they're in. If you can afford them.
7j43kAnd these days, there's a lot less switching, I think.
Indeed..Seamless railroading has arrived so it seems now they transfer complete trains with locomotives that is why a lot of yards have become obsolete and closed or downsized.
OTOH NS enlarged Moorman yard at Belleview,Oh but,this is a major yard.
BRAKIESeamless railroading has arrived so it seems now they transfer complete trains with locomotives that is why a lot of yards have become obsolete and closed or downsized.
I listened to the conference call of the new CEO of CSX who came from CP via CNI. He mentioned that Atlanta (I think it was Atlanta) has 3 rail yards that they inherited from various mergers. He's going to close some of those down to reduce unneccessary switching and dwell (time in the yard) time.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Someone at Arnies said BNSF used SW1500's down in Texas and Gensets out here in California.
It depends on where you live.
Someone at Arnies appears to be wrong.
I just went over to LocoPhotos.
All of the NRE 3GS21C photos were taken in California.
Almost all of the NRE 3GS21B photos were taken in Texas.
The SW1500's look to be all over. Including California.
If anyone cares more than I do, they can continue the research.
Opinion: The gen-sets are in California because the Railroads are being forced to use them instead of efficient locomotives.
While not in California - This report documents problems with gen-sets.
Norfolk Southern Locomotive Fleet Overview May 7, 2014
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-08/documents/smith.pdf
From the report:
Challenges in the Yard and Local Locomotive Fleet
• No true switcher or reliable low horsepower locomotives are built today – Last switcher built in 1984 – Last 4 axle locomotive was built in 1991 • No longer can older road locomotives be cascaded down to yard and local service – Current road locos too heavy and long for local service • Weight and curve restrictions at local industries • The genset locomotives from all builders have not lived up to performance and reliability expectations.
Too long????? Too long?
I am so waiting to hear about that.
Wait a minute. Where's my credibility? It was here a minute ago.
DSchmitt Opinion: The gen-sets are in California because the Railroads are being forced to use them instead of efficient locomotives. While not in California - This report documents problems with gen-sets. Norfolk Southern Locomotive Fleet Overview May 7, 2014 https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-08/documents/smith.pdf From the report: Challenges in the Yard and Local Locomotive Fleet • No true switcher or reliable low horsepower locomotives are built today – Last switcher built in 1984 – Last 4 axle locomotive was built in 1991 • No longer can older road locomotives be cascaded down to yard and local service – Current road locos too heavy and long for local service • Weight and curve restrictions at local industries • The genset locomotives from all builders have not lived up to performance and reliability expectations.
Wonder why the report didn't mention NS MP15DCs?
Thanks everyone, these were some great answers. I have been using fallen flag GP's abd SD's for switching on my layout.
willy6 I have been using...SD's for switching on my layout.
I have been using...SD's for switching on my layout.
I have a feeling that old SD7's and 9's are very popular for switching. Just won't take no for an answer.
The gen-set locos are quite efficient, when used as intended. When you don;t need 1500HP, why run a 1500HP diesel? Yet it's there if needed by firing them all up. Only need 500HP to move a cut? Then only 500HP is running, the other 1000HP is shut off.
Now, anyone on here actually run one? My guess is that because of the stop/start of the individual prime movers, they are probably rather slow too load and that lag probably makes train handling even harder than usual. Also I'm sure the first ones had serious issues with the control software for starting and stopping the engines, and once something or someone gets a bad rap in railroading, it's hard to shake.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Now, anyone on here actually run one?
Now, anyone on here actually run one?
Fr8kar on the Atlas Rescue Forum has run them. He's the one that informed my opinions and statements on the matter.
BigDaddyI listened to the conference call of the new CEO of CSX who came from CP via CNI. He mentioned that Atlanta (I think it was Atlanta) has 3 rail yards that they inherited from various mergers. He's going to close some of those down to reduce unneccessary switching and dwell (time in the yard) time.
We can add Avon yard to that list since CSX decided they no linger need it..Hundreds of jobs will be lost.
On the EPA website I found the following Norfolk Southern fleet overview of 2014:https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-08/documents/smith.pdf
From page 16 on they judge the "Genset Experiment".
Performance issues are:Slow to load, must get all engines running to kick cars, too light resulting in low pulling power on wet rails.
Reliability issues:Engine durability issues, parts availability issues, high power electronics failures, engines don't meet certified emissions reliably.
They add that 40 years old locomotives are more reliable and just one class 1 still buys genset switchers.
Remember I'm just the messenger.Regards, Volker
On the flip side, I grew up next to high line of the Minneapolis, Northfield & Southern Ry., which except for one engine (Baldwin DRS 6-6-15) used switchers on road trains. Baldwin VO-660 and VO-1000s and FM H-10-44 and H-12-44 early on, later EMD SW-1200 / SW-1500s. Trundling along at 10 MPH or so, they seemed to work fine.
Oops, I was wrong sorry, I guess both locomotives are being used in California.
My bad
There is nothing new about using older road engines for switching. Even in steam days, it was not unusual for railroads to assign road engines to switching service. In the 1950's, the B&O used 2-10-2's on the hump at Willard, Ohio, and they used Q-4 2-8-2's to switch coal and ore cars at such major Lake Erie ports as Fairport Harbor. Union Pacific almost completely ignored the 0-8-0 type, preferring 0-6-0's for light switching and 2-8-0's and 2-8-2's for the heavy work. PRR used 2-8-2's and 2-10-0's as hump engines at numerous locations. Indeed, the PRR only had 90 C1 0-8-0's on its roster. This would be a lot on many other roads, but it was a very small portion of the massive PRR's roster, and it is a tiny contingent in comparison with the PRR's 666 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's in classes A5s, B6, B6sa, B6sb, B8, and B28s. Those 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's were intended for lighter switching. PRR's total of 90 0-8-0's pales in comparison with B&O's 225 0-8-0's, or NYC's total of over 500 of the type. In fact, the PRR had so many H6, H8, H9, and H10 2-8-0's that it would have been wasteful to retire them as they were displaced by larger mainline engines. They were easily reassigned to branches, secondary runs, transfers, and of course heavy switching.
Even when brand new, the ubiquitous GP was always considered a General Purpose locomotive, available for mainline service in multiples, or as single units for branch, local, and switching service.
The idea of using an older mainline engine for heavy switching is definitely not new. There were even times when "road engines" were purchased brand new, specifically for heavy switching, such as the CNW's purchase of SD38's for hump service.
N&W took old F-M Trainmasters and cut them down to be yard slugs.
Bottom line: Use what works.
Tom
Tom,N&W used Alco C-628s as yard switchers in Portsmouth(Oh) for six months then GP35s replaced those big Alcos. Later the Geep 35s was replaced with SD35s.
BNSF still has a couple of Geeps on thier roster, I used to see them around Commerce near the BNSF Yard next to the freeway.
BNSF is awash with Geeps. If you're talking about models that start with "GP". About 800.
But.
Their last GP9 was 1625, apparently retired about 2010. The ex-BN GP10's lasted about another year, I think.
And their oldest GP (May 1965) appears to be GP35 GN2572 (a former ATSF GP35). It was still alive about a year ago. Somewhere.
Here's a shot of it early last year in Nebraska:
I meant GP38-2's and GP40's but yes, that's exactly what I remember seeing around Commerce.
Those are used in locals and short runs, correct?
ATSFGuy I meant GP38-2's and GP40's but yes, that's exactly what I remember seeing around Commerce. Those are used in locals and short runs, correct?
Lately, I would say yes. In my last extensive bit of trainwatching on BNSF in 2015, I saw NO through trains with GP's. The way-switcher, however, was a GP38-2 and a former GP50.
Should a loco shortage occur, then the GP's get put where they're needed.
For several years the UP has been storing surplus power in the Grand Junction yard, south of the Amtrak station. Initailly there were quite a few switchers, but they are gone. Most of the engines are GP15s that had been used as switchers, some radio controlled. I haven't counted them but there are at least a hundred, plus a hand full of leased units. As I understand, the leasing companies had no current use for them and told the UP to hold on to them.