I read a long time ago, I'm guessing about 30 years, that the N&W chose to run their road switchers with the long hood forward on the lead unit, even after low front hoods became the norm. Their feeling was it gave the engineer greater protection in the event of a grade crossing collision with the trade off of reduced visibility. From what I remembered, it sounded as if they were the exception but since then I've seen pictures of a number of roads, most notably the NYC, run their Geeps and RS3s with the long hood forward so now I wonder if the practice was more common than what I understood from the article. Does anyone know the breakdown of roads choosing long hood forward vs. short hood forward and which Class 1s chose to run long hood forward.
The practice varied a lot, especially with early road switchers. It was something of a holdover from the steam era, and from the first diesel hood units which were mostly switchers with the cab at extreme rear of the frame.
Many (most?) early Alco units were set up as long hood forward.
Here's an RSD-4 from http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-u/utah300an.jpg . Note the letter F denoting the front of the loco.
The F on this RS-1 http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-t/ts747dsa.jpg also indicates long hood forward.
Some EMD units were long hood forward when built as well. There were other cases of dual controls, such as the high nose Western Pacific Geeps. WP liked running them long hood forward when switching in urban areas, to protect the crew in the case of a crossing mishap.
Eventually (circa mid-late 1950s) most roads moved toward the short hood being forward on new power, with the major Class 1 exceptions in the US being Norfolk & Western and Southern. Older locos could retain their original control placement, so a GP7 could stay long hood forward on a road where later units went with the short hood at front.
Rob Spangler
While all locomotives do have a designated "front" (long hood or short hood depending on the railroad) some locomotives were built with dual control stands so the locomotive could truly run in either direction. The engineer would always be on the proper side of the locomotive and be able to sit facing the controls without having to sit twisted around. It made the cab more crowded and the locomotive more expensive to buy and maintain, of course, but it made operating easier.
Notice the F on the long hood along with the bell and horn. Grand Trunk ran it's GP9s long hood forward.
The railroad buying the engine could have the manufacturer build it as either long hood forward, short hood forward, or (rarely) dual controls. It wasn't always consistent, for example many railroads ordered their GP-7s to be short hood forward, but ran their RS-3s long hood forward.
Great Northern GPs, SDs, and RS engines were all long-hood forward up until they started buying low-nose GP-30s in the early sixties. Interstingly, neighbor Northern Pacific ran their GPs and their RS units all short hood forward.
The "F" designation was important for other reasons besides indicating which way the unit was set up to operate. Shop crews and others needed to know which end was the F end when interpreting write ups. If someone wrote "headlight out" you'd know which end they were talking about without needing to climb aboard and trying to turn it on. Same thing with hostlers bringing in units for repair, as orientation inside the shop can matter in facilitating repair. Etc, etc.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Your pretty on spot. At the time N&W was doing it, so was Class I Southern (before they merged into NS and the SR was fun to railfan!). By this time in history they were the only ones.
Most (not all) roads were short/low hood forward. However do know that on roads with branchlines that had no turn around at the point end, the loco would on one trip atleast, be running long hood forward.
In the begining of the hi-hood era (50's), alot of roads ran long hood forward. You can find the litlle "F" designator on either end in those days. It depends on when in the diesel era you look, as to what practice you see being prominant of the day.
And the reason you heard is correct. SR felt having a large chunk of engine and a strong frame between collision and crew would help save lives. This was before anti-climbers.
PM Railfan
As for the Southern, if I am reading and seeing the pictures in Paul Withers' Southern diesel book correctly, their SD35s had the F on the (high) short hood, but the SD40s, 45s, and 40-2s had the F on the long hood -- nonetheless there are plenty of photos showing those engines being run (high) short hood forward.
I think on the C&NW their ALCO RS1s were set up to run long hood forward, but the later hood units were set up short hood forward. A well remembered wreck on my hometown between a CNW freight and the industrial railroad of the Bucyrus Erie company in 1962 would likely have killed one or both crewmen in the CNW train's cab had it not been for some reason they assigned an RS1 to be lead unit that day.
Dave Nelson
B&LE runs one of its locals with the long nose first, but because of oddities with the customer. It departs the yard, heading south, pushing its train (with a caboose on the lead), to the AK Steel plant in Butler PA. When its working at AK, the short nose affords the crew better visibility. But there's nowhere to turn the locomotive, so it heads north with the long hood in front. Back when they used a pair of SWs for it, the cab ends faced north and south.
Hello All,
I've also seen some high-hood consists running cabs to the middle, long hood out, with both "F" or Forward designations opposed or towards the train.
This way when operating there were always controls "facing" forward, negating the necessity of a turntable, and the crew didn't need to run the length of the walkways to reach the opposite cab when switching direction. Unlike GP or SD consists running cab towards the ends or elephant; nose to tail, configuration.
As has been mentioned, the "F" or Forward designation was specified by each railroad for their particular use; some ran long-hood forward and some short-hood forward.
On my pike the GP's run short-hood forward in single operations. If consisted they run short-hood out; or opposed on double consists and on my triple consist it's short-hood forward, short-hood backward and the third runs short-hood forward.
I have an RS-11 on my snowplow consist that runs long-hood forward. The 70-ton switcher runs loong-hood forward too, just to obfuscate things.
The 44-ton switcher has a "F" or Forward designation for reasons of maintenance and direction control as has been mentioned in other replies.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jecorbettI read a long time ago, I'm guessing about 30 years, that the N&W chose to run their road switchers with the long hood forward on the lead unit, even after low front hoods became the norm.
That is true and also a myth..N&W ran their engines in either direction and then add the ex VGN Wabash,NKP,AC&Y and other merger roads and you can see why.Also a study of N&W photos will prove N&W ran 'em in both direction.The reason is simple N&W locomotives had duel controls that allowed this operation..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE jecorbett I read a long time ago, I'm guessing about 30 years, that the N&W chose to run their road switchers with the long hood forward on the lead unit, even after low front hoods became the norm. That is true and also a myth..N&W ran their engines in either direction and then add the ex VGN Wabash,NKP,AC&Y and other merger roads and you can see why.Also a study of N&W photos will prove N&W ran 'em in both direction.The reason is simple N&W locomotives had duel controls that allowed this operation..
jecorbett I read a long time ago, I'm guessing about 30 years, that the N&W chose to run their road switchers with the long hood forward on the lead unit, even after low front hoods became the norm.
Maybe it would be better to say the N&W specified the long hood as being the front end, even after short hood being the front became the norm for most other railroads.
Jeff
jeffhergertMaybe it would be better to say the N&W specified the long hood as being the front end, even after short hood being the front became the norm for most other railroads. Jeff
Interesting thought to concider...
I forgot to mention some N&W locomotives had bells mounted on the short hood while others had their bells mounted on the long hood..Why N&W did this I do not know.
I do recall N&W's SD45s and Alco 630s looked massive running long hood forward.
Just to add one small detail to lots of good info here, the default standard at EMD for GP and SD units was short hood forward unless otherwise specified by the customer.
At ALCO however, originally the reverse was true - early RS and RSC units were by default long hood forward unless otherwise specified by the customer.
So some roads that had both EMD and ALCO road switchers simply took them as designed because it was the cheapest version - and, the low hood design of the ALCO made the long hood forward less of a visablity issue.
So on many roads ALCO's would be long hood forward, and EMD's short hood forward.
ALCO later changed to short hood forward as standard with the introduction of the RS-11 and the C and RSD series.
Sheldon
BTW of course diesels can operate in either direction, though when possible railroads prefer to have the engine running forward, or the lead engine in a consist facing forward. But many railroads bought their first diesels to work on branchlines where they were able to eliminate a turntable at the end of the line by using a road switcher that didn't need to be turned at the end of the line. Yes, steam engines sometimes worked backwards, but railroads didn't do it any more than they had to. Diesels eliminated the problem.
wjstixBTW of course diesels can operate in either direction, though when possible railroads prefer to have the engine running forward, or the lead engine in a consist facing forward.
True and let us look closer.
N&W and Southern ran 'em both ways as lead even though the long hood was considered the "front".
I've often wondered if that was to save labor cost by not having to turn the engines so the lead unit would have the long hood forward on the "F" was just to please the FRA and BLE?
We know though photos or first hand observation C&O in their locomotive consist there was always a short hood leader on both ends of the consist.I'm sure other railroads had their locomotives facing in the direction of their front.
My point? Seems both N&W and Southern danced to their own tune while other roads was more interested(?) in having their engines running in proper order with the lead unit using the road's appointed front.
BRAKIE wjstix BTW of course diesels can operate in either direction, though when possible railroads prefer to have the engine running forward, or the lead engine in a consist facing forward. True and let us look closer. N&W and Southern ran 'em both ways as lead even though the long hood was considered the "front". I've often wondered if that was to save labor cost by not having to turn the engines so the lead unit would have the long hood forward on the "F" was just to please the FRA and BLE? We know though photos or first hand observation C&O in their locomotive consist there was always a short hood leader on both ends of the consist.I'm sure other railroads had their locomotives facing in the direction of their front. My point? Seems both N&W and Southern danced to their own tune while other roads was more interested(?) in having their engines running in proper order with the lead unit using the road's appointed front.
wjstix BTW of course diesels can operate in either direction, though when possible railroads prefer to have the engine running forward, or the lead engine in a consist facing forward.
Railroads had to keep an A unit on the lead of F-unit lashups so it would be no more difficult to do that than making sure there was a short hood forward unit on a lashup of road switchers.
GN designated long hood forward on their SD7's and 9's. Adjacent DMIR designated short hood dorward on their SD 9's and 18's.
I think I read somewhere the reason for for the F on the locomotive was to designate which way it would go when the reverser lever was in F.
I've talked with an old-head SOU engineer. At least where he worked, they much preferred to go LHF. If they were sent out short hood lead, they thought the company was trying to eliminate them. But in the part of the country he ran, they had a LOT of crossing wrecks. I guess a lot of the crossings were passive, curvy and hilly. Many guys there had dozens (or more) of collissions under their belts.
I've never seen a reverser marked with a front or back. You just throw it in the direction you want to go.
Next you can get into a discussion on which way you should give hand signals: Relative to the person giving them, or relative to the way the engine is facing? (around here, we use which way the engine is facing). Makes it fun when you do get a LHF engine.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Relative to the person giving them, or relative to the way the engine is facing? (around here, we use which way the engine is facing). Makes it fun when you do get a LHF engine.
That wasn't so bad when there was a fireman sitting in the left hand seat especially in a reverse yard when the engine was LHF.The switch stands was on the fireman's side and the engineer could not see the brakeman's signal.The fireman would relay the signals to the engineer.
Some times a brakeman would need to ride the roof walk in order to relay the signals to the engineer..I hated doing that job on the PRR but,it was a necessary evil.
Most railroad's first road diesels were F-units, which they ran as A-A, A-B-A, or A-B-B-A sets. The railroads realized pretty quickly that there was an advantage to having the A units facing away from each other, so the set wouldn't have to be turned. When GPs and SDs came along, they began to do the same thing, run engines together in 2-3-4 engine sets with the 'outside' engines facing away from each other so the whole consist could run either direction without needing to be shuffled around. If you see 10 mainline trains today with multi-unit lash-ups, probably 9 of the 10 (or all 10) will have the lead and trailing engines facing away from each other.
wjstix Most railroad's first road diesels were F-units, which they ran as A-A, A-B-A, or A-B-B-A sets. The railroads realized pretty quickly that there was an advantage to having the A units facing away from each other, so the set wouldn't have to be turned. When GPs and SDs came along, they began to do the same thing, run engines together in 2-3-4 engine sets with the 'outside' engines facing away from each other so the whole consist could run either direction without needing to be shuffled around. If you see 10 mainline trains today with multi-unit lash-ups, probably 9 of the 10 (or all 10) will have the lead and trailing engines facing away from each other.
And still some ran A-B-B consist or NYC was known to run A-A-A-A-A-A units in consist..I even seen the A units running in the same direction or funnier looking was 3 nose to nose A-A consist in that same A-A-A-A-A-A consist.
I have seen wide cabs running "elephant" style but,like you said there is usually a trailing unit facing the lead direction.
Again never bet the farm since one is guaranteed to lose..
I seen C&O Geep consist where all the units was facing the same direction same for N&W,PRR and NYC.I'm sure there are thousands of examples on every railroad today's or yesteryears.
BRAKIE wjstix Most railroad's first road diesels were F-units, which they ran as A-A, A-B-A, or A-B-B-A sets. The railroads realized pretty quickly that there was an advantage to having the A units facing away from each other, so the set wouldn't have to be turned. When GPs and SDs came along, they began to do the same thing, run engines together in 2-3-4 engine sets with the 'outside' engines facing away from each other so the whole consist could run either direction without needing to be shuffled around. If you see 10 mainline trains today with multi-unit lash-ups, probably 9 of the 10 (or all 10) will have the lead and trailing engines facing away from each other. And still some ran A-B-B consist or NYC was known to run A-A-A-A-A-A units in consist..I even seen the A units running in the same direction or funnier looking was 3 nose to nose A-A consist in that same A-A-A-A-A-A consist. I have seen wide cabs running "elephant" style but,like you said there is usually a trailing unit facing the lead direction. Again never bet the farm since one is guaranteed to lose.. I seen C&O Geep consist where all the units was facing the same direction same for N&W,PRR and NYC.I'm sure there are thousands of examples on every railroad today's or yesteryears.
The MP ran a lot of Fs through Omaha and I can remember being stopped on California St. many times and there would be As pointed in either direction with a few Bs mixed in. I imagine the last unit in the consist would be a rear facing A unit but I really didn't pay attention to it. I just remember that there seamed to be no rhyme or reason for how the A-units were facing other than the lead unit of course. For example, you might see ABAA with the middle A facing in either direction.
As I can see from books I have, the Canadian National ran its first generation road switchers (Geeps, RS3, FB) long hood forward even up to the 70's. Running the short hood forward began with the introduction of the second generation diesels.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's