What was a 6-8 wheeler, as in the Casey Jones song?

[wjstix]

The Edmund Fitzgerald was loaded at the BN ore docks in Superior WI. The problem is the line that said it had a load of iron ore that came "from a mill in Wisconsin".

It was loaded with taconite pellets, not raw ore. The taconite pellets came from a taconite processing plant, not a "mill". The taconite plant was located on the Mesabi Range in NE Minnesota, not in Wisconsin.

[NP2626]

To me, Gordon Lightfoot’s song; “The Wreak of the Edmond Fitzgerald” is one of the most hauntingly beautiful songs ever written.  So, I'm not about to let an inaccuracy such as you mention, bother me!  The song pays tribute to all seafarers everywhere and homage to the 29 soles lost that night!  You want to get hung-up over this, then be my guest.

[ACY Tom]

If you're looking for documentable fact, don't look to folk songs.  A good folk singer or a good teller of tall tales never lets the facts get in the way of a good story, expressed well.  Does anybody really think Harry McClintock's "Big Rock Candy Mountain" was a documentary or a reliable travelogue?

Tom

[NP2626]

Tom, Totally agree with you!  Lightfoot is a great seafarer's story teller as well as stories about other of life's lessons and hardships.  He loses zero points from my perspective as far as inaccuracies in the stories he tells, as I have never looked a song lyrics as needing to be absolutely factual.  The Ballad of Casey Jones, is another that really doesn’t lose anything for the inclusion of the words; 6-8 wheeler in the lyrics.  Although I am foolish enough to think I might know a few things about railroads. I also wondered if “6-8 wheeler” was a legitimate description of a locomotive, hence this thread.  I’m also fascinated by the fact that people have thought enough about these words in that song to feel they need to explain what they mean!      

[RainingStars]

 

Hi!  Yes, Wallace Saunders was the original writer, of the song "Ballad of Casey Jones."  He had only written it, as a memorial, to Casey, since Wallace had admired him so much.  Apparently Wallace never intended for the song to be published, so he never got it Copyrighted. He was heard singing "his version" at the Station, when William Leighton heard him singing it.  William took it, and gave it to his 2 brothers, who were in a Vaudeville Act.  They, then, went around the country, singing it.  They never got the song Copyrighted, either.  It finally wound up, in the hands of T. Lawrence Siebert, (he was credited with writing the song,) and Eddie Newton, (who was credited with the Music.). Of course, Siebert changed the Lyrics and added the ending where it claims that Janie Jones (Casey's Wife) had been cheating on him, which wasn't true.  It's said that all Wallace got, for his song, was a bottle of Whiskey.  How sad.

Also, here is the original song, as it was written by Wallace Saunders: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/genius.com/amp/Wallace-saunders-the-ballad-of-casey-jones-lyrics

Sent from my iPhone

[wjstix]

NP2626

Tom, Totally agree with you!  Lightfoot is a great seafarer's story teller as well as stories about other of life's lessons and hardships.  He loses zero points from my perspective as far as inaccuracies in the stories he tells, as I have never looked a song lyrics as needing to be absolutely factual.  The Ballad of Casey Jones, is another that really doesn’t lose anything for the inclusion of the words; 6-8 wheeler in the lyrics.  Although I am foolish enough to think I might know a few things about railroads. I also wondered if “6-8 wheeler” was a legitimate description of a locomotive, hence this thread.  I’m also fascinated by the fact that people have thought enough about these words in that song to feel they need to explain what they mean!      

 

That's right, and I wasn't knocking the song Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, just pointing out popular songs (and movies) aren't necessarily 100% historically accurate.

 

I read a long time ago that in Canada - at least at one time - an engine with six drivers and an eight-wheel tender would have been called a "6-8" engine. Since the song most likely existed for many years being passed from singer to singer until it was published, could be someone misheard a few words or just substituted the "6-8 wheeler".

 

p.s. Never heard "big eight wheeler" being used as a generic term for a passenger engine. I still go with my earlier assumption, that Hank Snow wrote "I'm Movin' On" at a time when many top passenger trains were hauled by 4-8-4 engines, and heard the term "eight wheeler" and thought it referred to eight-drivered engines...or just liked the term and it fit the meter of the song so used it.

[BigDaddy]

Taconite pellet plant is not euphonic.

[gmpullman]

BigDaddy

Taconite pellet plant is not euphonic.

 

wjstix

The Edmund Fitzgerald was loaded at the BN ore docks in Superior WI. The problem is the line that said it had a load of iron ore that came "from a mill in Wisconsin".

A fellow I worked with had worked previously in a taconite processing plant. There were dozens of "ball mills" in there to hammer the ore. Hence I suppose it could be called a taconite mill?

https://digital.hagley.org/1986268_1_0022

 

Regards, Ed

[BigDaddy]

Did I just get sucked into a 3 year old thread? 

[gmpullman]

BigDaddy

Did I just get sucked into a 3 year old thread?   

Any harm in that? 

PS  RainingStars, nice cat!

Ed

[NWP SWP]

"The church bell chimed till it rang twenty nine times for each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald"

"Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?"

Two of the most moving stanzas of lyric I have ever heard.

 

[Track fiddler]

I have no idea for the life of me how a thread of the Casey Jones song got to taconite pellets and the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.... Have I been missing something here.

I watched Casey Jones as a kid... Song what song there was many. Just as many as on Captain Kangaroo with dancing bear. (How ya doing Bear)?

I remember Casey Jones and Roundhouse. Now looking back Casey was a little bit of a crazy old guy. 

I remember a little skit he used to do around Christmas time when it was cold...... Walking in my Winter Underwear.

Casey would come out nancing around walking in his long johns while the Christmas music walking in a winter wonderland was playing but they dubbed in walking in my winter underwear.

Don't you guys remember that stuff.... oh well maybe some of you do

PS.....What's even funnier we used to watch crap like that when we were little, and liked it.

PS again.... Ulrich is a master as far as I'm concerned at finding any video that possibly exists.

I sure hope he doesn't find the video out of the sixties of Casey Jones Walking in my Winter Underwear and posts it..... It could be a little asinine watching it as an adult.

[garya]

Track fiddler

I have no idea for the life of me how a thread of the Casey Jones song got to taconite pellets and the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.... Have I been missing something here.

I watched Casey Jones as a kid... Song what song there was many. Just as many as on Captain Kangaroo with dancing bear. (How ya doing Bear)?

I remember Casey Jones and Roundhouse. Now looking back Casey was a little bit of a crazy old guy. 

I remember a little skit he used to do around Christmas time when it was cold...... Walking in my Winter Underwear.

Casey would come out nancing around walking in his long johns while the Christmas music walking in a winter wonderland was playing but they dubbed in walking in my winter underwear.

Don't you guys remember that stuff.... oh well maybe some of you do

PS.....What's even funnier we used to watch crap like that when we were little, and liked it.

PS again.... Ulrich is a master as far as I'm concerned at finding any video that possibly exists.

I sure hope he doesn't find the video out of the sixties of Casey Jones Walking in my Winter Underwear and posts it..... It could be a little asinine watching it as an adult.

 

You must be in the Twin Cities...

That was a local program on the old channel 11.

[wjstix]

CASEY JONES

EXPRESS

NOW ARRIVING

ON TRACK

EEEE-LEVEN

Yup that was a local Twin Cities TV show 1954-73 starring Roger Awsumb as Casey Jones. Casey stopped at the roundhouse at noon for lunch, originally served by "Joe the cook" played by Chris Wedes, who later moved to Seattle to become J.P. Patches on a similar kid's show. Lynn Dwyer, a 5' former Ice Capades performer, became the new sidekick "Roundhouse Rodney".

FWIW all three of them had gone to Macalester College in St.Paul; Awsumb, Wedes and John Gallos (who starred in his own morning kid's show as Clancy the Cop) all played college football at Macalester with future Senator / Vice-President Walter Mondale.

Oh, almost forgot....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBLxfvACQhE

 

[wjstix]

Track fiddler

I have no idea for the life of me how a thread of the Casey Jones song got to taconite pellets and the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.... Have I been missing something here.

 

I was pointing out that popular songs, movies, etc. about real people and events are often very far from accurate in the details (see "The Buddy Holly Story" movie for example). Although a great song, Lightfoot's song has a few inaccuracies in it, just as many versions of the Casey Jones song do.

 

BTW Wallace Saunders - who as I understand it, was illiterate, so couldn't write down the song let alone get it published - based his song on an earlier song called (IIRC) "Been on the Cholly Too Long" ("On the Cholly" or "On the Charlie" being a 1800's term for being on a drunk or a bender) that mentions an engineer named Johnny Jones dying in a wreck. (Of course Casey's real name was John Luther Jones.)

[Track fiddler]

garya

Track fiddler You must be in the Twin Cities...

That was a local program on the old channel 11.

 

Yep  and I remember it was broadcasted from a tall building next to Lake Calhoun South Minneapolis.  At least that's what my mother told me when I was slightly older than a toddler... my short-term memory is somewhat spotty lately but my long-term memory, incredible. I am like an elephant.

[garya]

Track fiddler

 

 

garya

Track fiddler You must be in the Twin Cities...

That was a local program on the old channel 11.

 

 

 

 

Yep  and I remember it was broadcasted from a tall building next to Lake Calhoun South Minneapolis.  At least that's what my mother told me when I was slightly older than a toddler... my short-term memory is somewhat spotty lately but my long-term memory, incredible. I am like an elephant.

 

They broadcast from the Calhoun Beach Hotel until 1973, when they moved to Golden Valley.

 

Sorry to go so far off topic...

[steemtrayn]

The driver diameter comments got me wondering... Does the measurement refer to the wheel's diameter before the tire is installed, or at the tread? After all, the size changes with wear and truing, but the wheel minus tire remains constant.

[NittanyLion]

NP2626

I never had a problem with the Edmond Fitzgerald song as I thought the vessel had loaded at Superior Wisconsin.  I'm not going to dig out my book on the E.Fitz and prove that point, as we're moving in yet another unrelated direction to the thrust of this thread.

That's not what the song says.  The line is "coming back from some mill in Wisconsin," which is a few lines before the departure.  If you're "coming back" from Wisconsin, you can't be departing from Wisconsin. Remember, the reference point for coming and going in the song is the docks at Superior.  That line is referring to their last up-bound trip, to inform the listener about how ore traffic moves on the lakes: running back and forth from places like Wisconsin across Lake Superior.

The actual fault in the song is "left fully loaded for Cleveland."  They were down-bound for Zug Island in Detroit.

[wjstix]

The ship was the pride of the American side / Coming back from some mill in Wisconsin.

As the big freighters go, it was bigger than most / With a crew and good captain well seasoned.

Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms / When they left fully loaded for Cleveland.

The Fitz IIRC was based in Cleveland. According to the song, they were coming back from Wisconsin to their home port in Cleveland, with a full load of iron ore. The boat actually had been loaded at the BN docks in Superior, so it was coming back towards it's home port (east towards the Sault Ste. Marie locks) from Wisconsin when it went down.

[yankee flyer]

As an aside if I remember correctly the Fitz has been dived on an the bell was brought up.

The ship was in a bad storm and it's believed bottomed out on the lake bed, which split it in two at midship.

I have some history in the area.

Cheers

Lee

[BRAKIE]

yankee flyer

The ship was in a bad storm and it's believed bottomed out on the lake bed, which split it in two at midship.

That would be six phantom shoal near Caribou Island.

 

 

 

[BigDaddy]

BRAKIE

six phantom shoal near Caribou Island

While the wreck may have it's share of phantoms, the lake has fathoms.

[BigJim]

So...now that we are terminally at the bottom of the lake, would someone kindly ask Davy Jones what a "6-8 wheeler" is?

[wjstix]

gmpullman

 

BigDaddy

Taconite pellet plant is not euphonic.

 

 

 

 

 

wjstix

The Edmund Fitzgerald was loaded at the BN ore docks in Superior WI. The problem is the line that said it had a load of iron ore that came "from a mill in Wisconsin".

 

 

A fellow I worked with had worked previously in a taconite processing plant. There were dozens of "ball mills" in there to hammer the ore. Hence I suppose it could be called a taconite mill?

https://digital.hagley.org/1986268_1_0022

 

I can see that, but there aren't any taconite plants (or mills) in Wisconsin I believe. The iron ore pellets the Fitz went down with were from taconite plants on the Mesabi Range in NE Minnesota. It was loaded at the BN docks in Superior WI, but the pellets weren't from "a mill in Wisconsin".

[BRAKIE]

BigDaddy

 

BRAKIE

six phantom shoal near Caribou Island

 

 

While the wreck may have it's share of phantoms, the lake has fathoms.

 

You're correct its fathoms and not phantoms even though the Great Lakes has it stories of ghost ships and  fiery phantoms.

[BigDaddy]

Larry I love your real railroad experience that you bring to this forum

[steemtrayn]

BigJim

So...now that we are terminally at the bottom of the lake, would someone kindly ask Davy Jones what a "6-8 wheeler" is?

 

It's an engine that has somewhere between six and eight wheels.

[Randy Knowles]

I visited the Home of Mr. and Mrs. Casey Jones in Jackson TN in early April of 1956. At that time Mrs. Jones was still alive and greeted groups touring the house and museum in the house. Also at that time Casey Jones' special custom whistle was on prominent display there. The version of the Ballad that I was familiar with at that time was the 1910 version referenced in an earlier reply. That version contains the phrase "six eight wheeler" and the sheet music with these words in on display today in the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson. That 1910 version contains other inaccuracies, e.g. "two locomotives that are going to bump". It is well known that Casey's locomotive collided with the caboose of a train that was attempting to pull onto a siding but suffered a broken air hose. All pictures I have seen of the engine appear to show a 2-8-0 configuration and the locomotive now displayed at the museum matches that. Also when I first visited in 1956 an elderly black man who seemed to be connected with the museum strongly advised me that "we don't sing the last verse around here!" This may well have been Simm Webb (Casey's fireman) , who did not pass away until 1957. I revisited the Casey Jones Museum last Sunday (8/15/21) and asked the staff there about the six eight wheeler phrase. They surmised the six may have referred to the number of cars that were being pulled in the train, a number that is apparently well established and known.