I went ahead and did some ballasting over the weekend where a tunnel is going on the layout. I took the time to paint the track and when I applied the ballast, now my ties are all the light gray instead of the brown that they were painted. The procedure I used is noted below.
pour and shape the ballast on the shoulders and between the track.
brush ballast off ties and rails.
soak with 91% alcohol
glue with 50% water, 50% white glue and couple of drops of dishwshing liquid.
Luckily this is a small area and if I need to hand paint the ties then that is ok, I just do not want to hand paint the entire layout.
any hints or tips welcome.
Thank you,
Jeff
BTW, I grew up in Oxnard and taught a Moorpark College back in the late 80's.
Sounds like you are doing it right, your dismay is that you will have to touch up your ties. Typically there would be an oil stain that ran through the center of your track so that will take care of most of the problem. I like to touch up the ties anyway and make them slightly different colors so a few gray ones are not bad.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I suspect that the alcohol interacted with the paint. Some people use it to weather buildings for just that reason.
Instead of alcohol, soak it with "wet water," a few drops of dishwashing liquid in a container of tap water. Some people spray this on, but I prefer to apply it with an eyedropper. For one thing, it doesn't get all over the place, and for another, it doesn't blast the ballast with a jet of air and move it all over the place.
Oh, and good move for starting your ballasting efforts in a tunnel. Doctors bury their mistakes - model railroaders scenic over them!
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hmmm..
I used the cheapo acrylic artist's paint that you get at Walmart. I painted the ties as the first step after laying the track and proving it. Then I placed beach sand for the ballast, and I also used a 50/50 isopropyl alcohol and water mix to wet the ballast. I dribbled it on, including between the rails. I did not "soak" my ballast, just got the top layer wet to allow the glue to penetrate and to not wash the ballast away.
Once I had glued and allowed the mixture to dry, I found no appreciable or discernible difference in my ties. So, it must be an interaction between the paint substrate and the alcohol or the glue....something about that combination.
If you don't mind a suggestion, try Joe Fugate's weathering powder between the rails and you will find the effect you have derived much less bothersome.
I am thinking what was mentioned above, that the alcohol is interacting with the WS ballast. I will try using the wet water instead of alcohol.
Also has anyone tried brushing a thin layer of glue on the cork to hold the ballast on the sides? I am thinking of trying this and then when I pour the ballast it will have something to hold onto.
I'm not 100% sure what you are saying the problem is...
everyone's assuming the colour of the ties... probably rightly...
1st thing I would do is wait several days to see if any reaction between different elements settles down ... and maybe ends up with a different colour.
Grey ties aren't such a bad thing. Someone on the forum was recently asking how to achieve them for desert scenery/washed out wood colour.
It isn't just sun that turns ties grey. Depending on your era some ties were never treated and naturally reached a grey colour quite quickly. Similarly other preservatives than creosote were tried in different places at different times.
Again the particular conditions in tunnels quite often do strange things to ties and you can get some very weird effects. Can't think of a specific example off hand. most tunnels have issues with damp to wet. A few somehow manage to desicate everything. They are horrible to work in.
Where is your RR? Which RR and when?
If the combination is right you might get away with saying that they are concrete ties. These were often tried where very soggy tunnels rotted timber out too quickly... but early ones especially suffered from water penetrating the concrete... if water didn't freeze and bust them the re-bar cores rusted and did the same thing more slowly.
Chalk can make things white/grey outside as well as in tunnels... and set the whole track as a solid lump if it isn't managed correctly / drains get blocked. This tends to affect the whole track including the rail feet and webs.
Other things have a visually similar affect. Very fine white sand, talc...
When track is bad with a mix of water and dust the track can pump vertically as trains move over it. This can squirt up a slurry of grey (or other colour) goo onto the ties. This may show up more when wet or when dry.... The ballast isn't always entirely the same colour... water may wash the ballast but not the ties... epsecially in tunnels... also the wood grain may hold fine granules/dust from the slurry while it washes off the ballast.
If you end up with just a short patch of grey ties and want to figure out a reason it might be that a car load of sand or whatever derailed and has left the ties stained but not damaged... You might add scrape marks (fresh or faded) on the tunnel walls.
You can have new concrete ties in old ballast or old (faded) ties in new ballast... whatever it is can have those stains mentioned before superimposed on them.
Have you thought about how the tunnel is drained? Water often flows from tunnels long after rain has stopped outside and even all the time.
Simple drainage is a porous pipe where the ballast meets the tunnel wall... this only shows where the pipe emerges at the tunnel mouth and outflows to a ditch or whatever arrangement ... check out pics.
loathar wrote:It's the alcohol. I learned this the hard way too. I painted my track first and the alcohol stripped all the paint off my rails. I switched to the soapy wet water and it did the trick.
I usually use some alcohol when I ballast, but I try not to get any on the layout.
Dave,
I am pretty much doing the transition era. Locale is more of a Southern California area. I just see a lot of excellent track work on these forums where the ties are multi shades of brown and they oil stains going down the middle of the gray ballast. I figured I was doing everything correct and it was looking good until I ballasted and now my ties are gray like the ballast. It just seems that painting the track before hand was a waist of time and paint.
Dave-the-Train wrote: I'm not 100% sure what you are saying the problem is...everyone's assuming the colour of the ties... probably rightly...1st thing I would do is wait several days to see if any reaction between different elements settles down ... and maybe ends up with a different colour.Grey ties aren't such a bad thing. Someone on the forum was recently asking how to achieve them for desert scenery/washed out wood colour.It isn't just sun that turns ties grey. Depending on your era some ties were never treated and naturally reached a grey colour quite quickly. Similarly other preservatives than creosote were tried in different places at different times.Again the particular conditions in tunnels quite often do strange things to ties and you can get some very weird effects. Can't think of a specific example off hand. most tunnels have issues with damp to wet. A few somehow manage to desicate everything. They are horrible to work in.Where is your RR? Which RR and when?If the combination is right you might get away with saying that they are concrete ties. These were often tried where very soggy tunnels rotted timber out too quickly... but early ones especially suffered from water penetrating the concrete... if water didn't freeze and bust them the re-bar cores rusted and did the same thing more slowly.Chalk can make things white/grey outside as well as in tunnels... and set the whole track as a solid lump if it isn't managed correctly / drains get blocked. This tends to affect the whole track including the rail feet and webs.Other things have a visually similar affect. Very fine white sand, talc...When track is bad with a mix of water and dust the track can pump vertically as trains move over it. This can squirt up a slurry of grey (or other colour) goo onto the ties. This may show up more when wet or when dry.... The ballast isn't always entirely the same colour... water may wash the ballast but not the ties... epsecially in tunnels... also the wood grain may hold fine granules/dust from the slurry while it washes off the ballast.If you end up with just a short patch of grey ties and want to figure out a reason it might be that a car load of sand or whatever derailed and has left the ties stained but not damaged... You might add scrape marks (fresh or faded) on the tunnel walls.You can have new concrete ties in old ballast or old (faded) ties in new ballast... whatever it is can have those stains mentioned before superimposed on them. Have you thought about how the tunnel is drained? Water often flows from tunnels long after rain has stopped outside and even all the time. Simple drainage is a porous pipe where the ballast meets the tunnel wall... this only shows where the pipe emerges at the tunnel mouth and outflows to a ditch or whatever arrangement ... check out pics.
Loather,
Thanks for the heads up, I will try it without the alcohol and use the wet water. I used teh alcohol because I had seen someone else post about using it here before. Now I know and it hopefully will be a good lesson learned. I will let you all know how it turns out tonight.
you didn't mention if you dullcoated the track after painting it . if you spray dullcoat on something then go over it with alcohol it will give a grey/white finish . it's a very nice weathering technique for the corugated steel panels often used on industrial buildings but it can really make a mess of an ordinary paint job . however the solution is easy , just spray with dullcoat again and it goes away .
No dullcote used, nice tip though.
ereimer wrote: you didn't mention if you dullcoated the track after painting it . if you spray dullcoat on something then go over it with alcohol it will give a grey/white finish . it's a very nice weathering technique for the corugated steel panels often used on industrial buildings but it can really make a mess of an ordinary paint job . however the solution is easy , just spray with dullcoat again and it goes away .
I am using pollyscale acrylic paint to paint the ties. The paint is not coming off, it is the gray from the ballast that is coating the ties now. I think the best option is to avoid the alcohol and just try the water and dish soap.
dieselfan04 wrote:The alcohol is used break the surface tension of the water. Only a few drops are required to accomplish this. Also, the 91% is too strong for this. Use the 70%. The 91% is used for paint stripping so if you used a 50-50 mix you actually were stripping your paint. If you are painting plastic ties your paint may not be adhering.
Idaho Trains wrote: I am using pollyscale acrylic paint to paint the ties. The paint is not coming off, it is the gray from the ballast that is coating the ties now. I think the best option is to avoid the alcohol and just try the water and dish soap. dieselfan04 wrote:The alcohol is used break the surface tension of the water. Only a few drops are required to accomplish this. Also, the 91% is too strong for this. Use the 70%. The 91% is used for paint stripping so if you used a 50-50 mix you actually were stripping your paint. If you are painting plastic ties your paint may not be adhering.
This is one of the reasons I chose Arizona Rock & Mineral for the source of my ballast. I've never had the color come off of real stone <VBG>
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
jbinkley60 wrote: ...This is one of the reasons I chose Arizona Rock & Mineral for the source of my ballast. I've never had the color come off of real stone <VBG>
...
I have only ever used one colour of WS ballast, and that was their brown. I believe it comprises walnut shell pieces finely ground. I never did notice that the colours ran when I wetted and then glued the stuff. The black/grey/white/other coloured WS ballast must be dyed, so I wonder if it is a bad batch. You'd think it would hold when wet since most of us glue the ballast....
Idaho Trains wrote: I am thinking what was mentioned above, that the alcohol is interacting with the WS ballast. I will try using the wet water instead of alcohol. Also has anyone tried brushing a thin layer of glue on the cork to hold the ballast on the sides? I am thinking of trying this and then when I pour the ballast it will have something to hold onto.
I have done ballast with brushing glue onto the sides of the cork first. It does help.
I don't think you're having an interaction with the alcohol and ballast, but it is a possibility. As I recall, WS ballast is made from crushed walnut shells. Try using 50% isopropyl instead on 91%. The 91% is some pretty strong stuff. I use it to strip paint. The other possibility is ballast dust. Try sifting it through a fine strainer or a tea strainer to remove the dust. Test the sifted ballast on a section, first with 91% iso and then 50% iso and see what the results are.
jktrains
jambam wrote:...So I was thinking. . . . is it feasible to take a very fine spray airbrush (and a steady hand), and spray the rust color along the outsides of the rails AFTER ballasting? Similarly spray a black strip down the middle?
I am not familiar with airguns, so that possibility is unkown to me. I suppose a fine enough spray would be okay? You might have to mask what is closest to the far side of the tracks, including the ballast to prevent oopses. Perhaps practise on a mockup section of track to see how well you can control the arm's tendency to wander trying to keep on a fine line.
However, I use a an artist's brush with the bristles cut somewhat to stiffen them a bit...a fine one. Then, I use Floquil's version of "Rust" on the rails, but some of it always bleeds down onto the ties and tie plates. This is what I notice on the prototype, so I like the effect when it works.
This is the only image I have that shows my results reasonably well. Is this some of the effect that you mean?
Selector,
Your track looks good. I worked on the ballast some more tonight and think that the coloring is ballast dust. When I applied the ballast to do tough up and brushing it while it was dry. The gray was getting all over the ties. I then tried to remove the dust with a towel wetted with windex and it was coming up.
I did take and wet the ballast with wet water and that worked pretty well until I knocked over the cup of wet water and washed out all my hard work of getting the ballast set correctly. This has been a fun adventure, at least this will be partially covered in a tunnel.
I also noticed a big noise level difference when the trains ran over the ballasted track then just when the track was on cork only. Now I know what people are talking about when they say it is loud. For me it is not going to matter and well just have to deal with it.
I have some more packages of the same ballast and will try them when I am ready to ballast more track. For now I will touch up the ties with a paint brush and air brush the center oil stains. I will post images soon.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
jambam wrote:I'm several months away from ballasting, but I've been reading these forums w/ great interest. One question though regarding the painting: I've noticed on the prototype tracks around here, there's certainly the distinct oil track down the center, but on the outside of the rails, the rust has bled down the sides and onto the ends of the ties and the ballast. It looks like someone took a large spray can and sprayed rust along the sides of the rails, ties and ballast. So I was thinking. . . . is it feasible to take a very fine spray airbrush (and a steady hand), and spray the rust color along the outsides of the rails AFTER ballasting? Similarly spray a black strip down the middle?
You could do that. You would need an airbrush with a REAL fine tip on it. Another thing that works is to use rust colored chalks or weathering powders. You can use black chalk for the oil stripe down the middle.
Here is some images of the track after ballasting and painting. I think it turned out good. Let me know what you think? I did have to hand paint the ties and rails, plus I airbrushed the center oil stain.
Here are a few more update images - I have the tunnel constructed now. I have more work to go, but any useful comments are welcome?
Image 1 - framework covered by tape
Image 2 - Covering the tunnel with Joe Fugates method of ground goop.
Image 3 - shows a wider view and also the transformers for the turntable hidding in the hillside.
Thank you for looking,
Jeff, it looks fine to me. Good work.
Off topic for this thread, but your backdrop looks very dark, to me. Before you go too far, I suggest that you lighten it by about three shades. Try going over it a couple of times with a white wash. If you have an interest in photographing some modeled scenes in the future, your backdrop blue, as it is, will not look right. I hope you don't mind that observation.
selector wrote: Jeff, it looks fine to me. Good work.Off topic for this thread, but your backdrop looks very dark, to me. Before you go too far, I suggest that you lighten it by about three shades. Try going over it a couple of times with a white wash. If you have an interest in photographing some modeled scenes in the future, your backdrop blue, as it is, will not look right. I hope you don't mind that observation.
Thank you for the compliment, as far as the backdrop I will be ligtening it up more. I did use some white already but it needs more. I appreciate any and all comments and glad to see that others think or see the same things I do.
I find that as any of the "Real crushed stone" ballast is spread the gray dust will create the coating effect on the ties. As already stated, the weathered graying usually will only appear if alcohol is used over Dullcoat. I use a mix of WS fine gray and Scenic Express. The dusting will happen and shows when the ballast is spread, but only a slight haze is left after wetting and gluing in place. I do use some portion of alcohol in the wet water, put it is no more than 25-30%.
Jeff,
The ballasting below looks good only the oil staining seems a bit too dark and uniform. Heavily stained ties/ ballast would be seen more in yards and yard leads. The ballast job is fresh and represents well maintained main line, it would be rare to see such heavy stains on new clean ballast. Joe Fugate has an excellent method to accomplish this. He uses powdered tempra paint dusted on and then wets to allow the staining. Check out his website he shows how it's done somewhere there. I have tried it on a few small sections, go light at first, you can add more to get the affect you desire.
An added tip is don't do too much ballasting or complete the edges of the ballast shoulders until you have at least set your some scenery base up to or between the tracks. Many times I will use cheap play sand over the plaster or scultamold to initiate any scenery contours then work to bring the ballast edges out on to the scenery. It is a bit more difficult the other way around. Touching up ballast later can be a pain and the exact mix and weathering may be off.
Selector, Very nice job, really like the ballasting job and the weathered rail. I find that the Floequil rust works to simulate newly laid/ rusty rail. Older rail tends to darken and a combination of the Floequil roof brown/ rust acheives this look. I notice you have this look of varied weathering between the tracks. Most of my wheelsets are painted w/ roof brown for this look.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Bob, Thank you for the tips. I thought my track might have looked a little dark where the oil stain is. I can try and lighten it in areas and leave some dark. I know about Joe Fugates sight and have been getting a lot of information from there. I printed off his scenery tips that has on there. It has been really helpfull.
As far as ballasting the area, I was just ballasting where the tunnel was going and the rest of the scenery base will be put down before I add more ballast.
Your pictures look good.
bogp40 wrote:
I would explain that right hand track by saying that a ballast cleaner has been through followed by a heavy top-up of new ballast from a mostly side-disharging ballast train... followed by a light run by a tamper just to level things out. Might have a slow order still on it.
If you do a little darkening of the new ballast it would show a heavier tamp and line which has brought somme more of the older ballast through to the surface.
I suspect that would be easier than trying to lighten the existing darkening.