Hello, I am just getting back into this since I was a kid. My wife actually is giving me a whole spare bedroom to build in. Here is my dilema; I want a layout that can have a high tresell bridge and yet still have a valley area for a small town. My room is approx. 10' x 11'. Keeping in mind that I need to reach everything, does anyone have any ideas for me? I already have a 4x8 base constructed with 2" foam on top. I would like to incorporate this into some additional framing to accomplish my goal. I like the look of trains going into and out of the mountains. Thanks for your help! Jeff
P.S. I forgot to mention that I was starting on the "Great Eastern Trunk" by Atlas. I was going to modify it into a mountainous layout and add an "L" section of framework. Now I'm stuck. :(
Jeff, I'm afraid the answer may not be to your liking, but it comes down to basic math.
In the space you have, unless you are willing to live with a layout comprising many "wormholes" due to its complexity (definitely not encouraging you in that regard...no way!), you only have so many feet of travel to rise up on a sensible grade until you have to begin a descent again to your village or main level. Best case scenario for the dimensions you list is a gain of elevation near 8" if you can live with a grade between about 2.8 and 3.3%. If you rise over less distance, and/or rise further in elevation, you will probably regret it because you will have unrealistic grades. Personally, I think layouts suffer badly in believability when they have what amount to toy-like or caricatured grades. It also means short trains or trains double-headed all the time...at least, on the climbs.
So, what does that mean for you in terms of your "high" trestle? You can buy another 2" on that trestle if you cut the foam down to the board beneath it and have the trestle supporting your tracks at the apex of your climb, or nearly so.
nhrasg wrote: Hello, I am just getting back into this since I was a kid. My wife actually is giving me a whole spare bedroom to build in. Here is my dilema; I want a layout that can have a high tresell bridge and yet still have a valley area for a small town. My room is approx. 10' x 11'. Keeping in mind that I need to reach everything, does anyone have any ideas for me? I already have a 4x8 base constructed with 2" foam on top. I would like to incorporate this into some additional framing to accomplish my goal. I like the look of trains going into and out of the mountains. Thanks for your help! Jeff P.S. I forgot to mention that I was starting on the "Great Eastern Trunk" by Atlas. I was going to modify it into a mountainous layout and add an "L" section of framework. Now I'm stuck. :(
Jeff:
I built an enlarged version of the "Great Eastern Trunk" as a teenager with my father. I'm sorry, I can't recommend the layout. Other than seeing 2 trains circle in opposite directions on separate tracks, it has no lasting or redeeming value. Even expanded, there is little room for any real "scenery".
The next situation is that you really don't have room for more than a 4x8 with a 2x8 leg in a U shape. That leaves room for a 1ft wide shelf across the bottom of the U to link the 2 legs, and 24" aisles everywhere (pretty tight) except the bottom of the U which is against the wall.
Although it would be a complete change of plans, I suggest serious consideration be given to building a derivative of the "Heart of Georgia" layout. See http://www.layoutdesignservice.com/lds/samples/betterbeginnerlayout.htm
It would be fairly easy with a plan like the HOG to use one side for a trestle scene, and another with a mountain and tunnel, if that's what you wanted. Keep the track level, and vary the level of the surrounding terrain instead (what the prototype tried to do when they could).
With the HOG, you can expand the width of the shelves to 2ft, which would push the outside out to your wall dimensions, and give you a lot more track and scenic options. By pushing the outside against the wall, possibly wall mounting as a shelf, and making the layout high, you create significant usable space under the layout for desks, workbench, storage, etc. Backdrops are easily mounted and installed.
The big drawback to the HOG is the duck under/lift out/swinging gate needed to access the center "pit".
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
nhrasg wrote:I understand what you are saying. I had another thought. Does anyone ever run trains on two different levels that aren't connecting lines? Maybe like a working coal train up in the mountain and the rest on the lower level? Thanks again Jeff
There are a lot of examples in real life of that. BNSF through New Mexico has a lot of places where the tracks are separated and on different levels. Look up Tehachapi in California and you have BNSF trains running parallel to UP trains on different levels. I'm sure there are examples in the eastern part of the US as well.
I'd vote with the folks who advocate an around the walls layout instead of a 4X8 or whatever though and the HOG or a variant *is* a very spiffy layout...
Not familiar with the Great Eastern Trunk, so I don't know if this will work or not.
If you put the four foot edge of your current bench against the center of one ten foot wall, you can make an "E" shaped layout pretty easily. Ten minus four leaves six feet, divided by two different wings (the top and bottom of the "E"), each minus two feet for a passageway leaves you a one foot shelf along two opposite sides of the room, with your 4x8 in the middle, and small connectors, up to 3 feet wide, at the ends of each aisleway, as shown below.
Since you don't mention door, closet, or window placement, these are omitted.
Starting from lower left, you have a straight run of 8 feet, half a circle of 22 inch radius, (22 inches times Pi, divided by 12 inches per foot) call it 5.5 feet, three feet of straight run down the left side of the 4x8, a quarter of a 22" curve, call it 2.5 feet, for a halfway run of 21 linear feet, times two, a maximum run of 42 linear feet.
At a three percent grade, then, your theoretical maximum grade elevation increase comes to about 15 vertical inches. Three feet per 100 feet, a 3% grade times 42/100 or .42, equals 1.26 feet, times 12 inches per foot gives 15 inches and change.
But wait....because another track can begin at the same point, and DESCEND from there, giving you a maximum vertical relief of 30 inches.
Of course, we're pushing the edge here, putting your bridge and village all the way in the corner of the room and using every bit of trickery we can to get max vertical relief, but it gives us the limiting factor for this type of layout.
By chopping the corners off the peninsula end of the 4x8, you can add angled ends to the wings, and gain a total of half another 22" curve, or 5.5 feet, at which point you gain another 2.5 inchs of grade change, times two for an ascending and descending track as shown earlier, for a total of 34" between the top of the bridge and the lowest part of the valley on track grade.
If you cut a foot of length off your 4x8 and nip the peninusula corners, you can run clear around the room, doors and windows permitting. With the layout shown below, you have 56 feet of descending track (clockwise) from the top of the bridge, giving you 20 inches of vertical seperation between the top of the bridge and bottom of the valley, along with CONTINUOUS RUNNING.
(The blue, ascending track should actually cross OVER the red one, instead of as shown in the drawing, please forgive the error, sorry for any confusion)
If instead of a double loop, you ran four loops, two descending and two ascending, you could have 40 vertical inches of seperation between the highest and lowest points on your grade, and again, continuous running.
These are approximations, to introduce you to some of the calculations and some of the space saving techniques available to you, not suggestions for your actual layout.
Once you understand the constraints and how the math all fits together, you can apply them to your room and decide what you want, versus what you can fit in.
Hope this helps.
nhrasg wrote:Thank you for all your replies. I have had a sick computer (viruses and spyware). Just got it back from Best Buy to the tune of about $400.00. I will be here more often again. Thank you very much for all the advice! Jeff
Buy and use Norton 360 Security, download Adaware personal edition (Free), spywareblaster (Free) and get behind a router like a 2wire that disallows un-asked for traffic to your machine. Especially if you are using broadband.
You dont want to be lugging that machine to Best Buy everytime it catches a infection.
Regarding your room, it is similar to what I am using and I gotta tell you that you will not have too much room to work with on your different levels.
You could attempt floor to ground scenery to give a illusion of being in the high country.
You don't need to raise your track up in order to cross a tressle. There is no rule saying the ground can't "fall" away from track level. In other words, your track can remain level while the ground raises (to give you cuts and tunnels) and lowers (giving you bridges).
Considering the small space you have, N-scale might be a good option (if you haven't already invested heavily in HO). You can fit N-scale in your space more easily than HO.
Keep us posted with your progress. We're looking forward to seeing what your plans will look like.
In a room that size, you wouldn't be able to use a helix to connect the two levels. (Well unless you do go to N or Z scale.)
But, there's nothing wrong with having two completely separate lines at different elevations. I would try making it two separate railroads running parallel - the first to arrive took the easy "water level" route thru the valley, the second one had to make the more difficult route thru the hills/mountains. I'd pick two railroads that had very different styles and colors of depots, signals (one could semaphores, the other color-light signals). Maybe even decorate the track with slightly different colored ties and ballast (dark ties and light ballast on the lower line, light colored ties with black cinder ballast on the upper.)
Another thought: the lower could be a mainline RR, the upper line a logging railroad - and/or (depending on your layout setting and time) a narrow gauge line.