It's getting closer. Still you are wasting a lot of space. When you get up and running with XtrkCAD, I think you'll find you can do even more still.
The caution I would give is about all the switchbacks. You are creating moves, but it is way too complex. Simplify. The back and forth will get old.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Hey Nucat,
Thanks for the interest!
The backdrop is really more of a small scene splitter. It's not going to be too high, just a little higher than the buildings since I have to store this layout in some confined spaces. Also the backdrop may not go end to end on the layout but may stop just inside of the tracks. Just have it lined up that way on the design. But if it stays I'll probably come up with an electrical solution to the switches.
Rob
It's been interesting following the evolution of your plan(s) here. I like the latest one.
I do have one comment / question. Long leads = good thing, but the latest version has turnouts on the opposite side of the backdrop from where you will be working your train in the yard. Is that going to cause problems if you can't see where the head / tail end is at?
I'd also worry about the points not being thrown properly if you can't see them, but you could use indicators if they're going to be remote turnouts. I'd try to slide that backdrop "up" a little so the switches are in plain view.
OTOH, if somebody wanted to remove the yard and have hidden staging, that would be a great place for the switches. Hmmmm. Tempting as I have a 6'11" X 3' "nook" in my den...
Hey guys,
I'm back. Work got in the way but I've been able to work on my plan a bit more taking all things into consideration. Chip, I'm hearing you on all the suggestions and I am starting to learn the XtrakCad since I have it.
Reworked my last plan. I had 3 that I was fooling around with, one of which seemed the most workable plan. Changed the yard and brought it inside the loop. Think I'm going to add a wing on the bottom below the green track for a passenger station and depot (not sure yet). I have some of the loco service buildings on there but will need to spread them out onto the track that leads to the building/industry on the right. I think I have the room for the service facilties.
The top side of the divide has my town and industrial area. The runaround in the industrial area should be large enough for switching I think. This is opened up some and I think I have some decent room for a few mid sized industries. I may shorten the lead to the closest track parallel to the backdrop a little bit so I can add a false front industry there. The backdrop also allows me to add the river back in and going from the backdrop off the layout with my trestle bridge as well (my druthers) for a nice scenic element. My town will be near alongside the river on a small hill.
Overall I like the plan for a small layout I think it has some nice scenic and operational possibilties. Could be a great learning layout until I have the room for my dream layout.
All comments appreciated as always!
rpbns wrote: Hey,Came back with 3 different designs with different features. They are still based off the original idea, or at least in the spirit of the original. Size remains the same, 42x84 and able to split down the middle. They all with have a backdrop to split length wise down the middle (thanks Chip). One is with a through yard (at least my attempt at one) then more typical loop with the staging curved at the end for more space. Last is a layout with a roundhouse. Not sure if I've given it enough room. Tell me what you think. I have some tracks color coordinated just for my own separation as to what their purpose is.
Hey,
Came back with 3 different designs with different features. They are still based off the original idea, or at least in the spirit of the original. Size remains the same, 42x84 and able to split down the middle. They all with have a backdrop to split length wise down the middle (thanks Chip).
One is with a through yard (at least my attempt at one) then more typical loop with the staging curved at the end for more space. Last is a layout with a roundhouse. Not sure if I've given it enough room. Tell me what you think. I have some tracks color coordinated just for my own separation as to what their purpose is.
The Good: The areas are pretty well thought out. The yard works in the area you have placed it and coming off the section in the turn works. you've left yourself two distinct areas, the yard and the industrial area.
The Bad: Nothing horrible that further refinement won't fix. The industrial area look contrived, but that will smooth out when you start shopping for structures and layout out the area. You have a lot more room than you think you so there and when you start scoping out industries, I thin you'll see how much will fit. Start thinking in terms of a couple major industries and some smaller auxiliary industries. It's conceivable that you could have 8-10 places to switch in that area.
You can also develop the area above the yard giving more switching opportunities.
The yard lead is too short. It needs to be as long as the longest yard track. You can solve this by extending the first yard track like you did the lowest one and then take it around the corner if need be. You don't have to connect back to the main. In order to make this work, you need to move the first yard turnout one section to the left. It will make a bit of an S-turn, but not for the road engine, and you switcher can keep the speeds as low as needed.
This will also give you a little more length in the yard tracks. Speaking of the yard tracks, although the curve in the yard gives you a hair more length, the cost is high as it is tough to couple and uncouple on turns. Better to keep it straight and working.
You have room for a turntable in the lower right.
The ugly: There's no room for the creek and bridge you stated you wanted. Don't give up on that too quickly.
The Good: This layout has the best switching in terms of variation and working things through.
The Bad: The yard is pretty pointless. The curves are tight and you have given yourself very little room to expand on the idea.
A good exercise in possibilities.
Let me know what you think if you have a chance. Would explain more about them but i'm tired and it's too close to 1a.ThanksRob
Let me know what you think if you have a chance. Would explain more about them but i'm tired and it's too close to 1a.
Thanks
The Good: When I first looked at this plan I thought I saw a dual main, but alas, I was mistaken. I like the double main on N-scale for rail-fanning because you can set up vistas and run two trains in opposite directions.
I like the yard in the center because it opens up the turns and makes them a little more sweeping.
The bad: This layout has the least switching opportunities. The yard has nothing to use as an A/D track and the yard lead continues to the other side of the layout and creates a blind spot while working the yard. You are right, the TT is a little tight.
********************************************************************
General comments.
1. Now is a good time to go back to your original givens and druthers and see if you included the things that are important to you. Granted your ideas have probably expanded since you started, but when you close your eyes and see your pike, what features stick out. The bridge and creek come to mind. It may be that you need to rethink where the layout is heading and steer it back toward your original vision. It may be that you need to take some time and dream a little and expand your vision.
2. The software is still limiting your thinking. The flex track can do so much more and give you flexibility in design. I feel you are at the point where you have reached your limit with this program and you need to take the time to make the switch to XtrkCAD (or pay money and get CADrail or 3rd Planit). I know it will take re-learning, but you should be able to do so in less time than it took to draw those three track plans above. It will be worth it when you see how your designs will improve.
3. Up until now you have been designing trackwork. Start looking into landscapes, scenery, and industries you would like to see and that would fit you vision. Then design your trackwork to fit the scenery, landscape and industries.
4. Track planning is a lot of work, but it is a lot of fun as long as you don't get frustrated. Remember anything you do is only pixels at this point and you can destroy a lot of pixels. As you burn through these drafts your layout will get better and better and better.
5. Keep you vision in the dominant place in your plan above your clever "ideas." Designing and building your vision is what will make it great, not just functioning and adequate.
I like the first one the best.
#1, You may want to include a run-around track that doesn't spoil the mainline one one or both sides. You probably only need it on the industry side since I think you can manage breaking up and classifying trains on the bottom without one.
#2, Unless you run 3-4 car trains, the through yard just doesn't have enough length on the fingers.
#3, This one is good too, though it has one less industry and still lacks a run-around that doesn't spoil the main on the top side. I think that for the space available though, a turntable takes up quite a bit of it, even in N scale.
For the space, I think you're getting a lot of railroad here. Looking good!
First off, I would hesitate to sacrifice your vision because you can't work out the plan yet. By that I mean, if you like steam, that is what you should be planning for.
On the current layout, I see a couple problems. Starting at 7:30, You have room for an engine shed, but no room for fuel, water , sand, ash pit, etc.
The yard lead is so long it interferes with the main at 12 o'clock.
My suggestion would be to move the yard to the inside of the main and flip your switching to the other side, bringing your "city" to the side with the yard. This will have a few major impacts.
1) You will increase your turn radii.
2) You separate your "yard" from your switching. Since you don't have staging, you can have one side builds trains to be switched on the other. If nothing else, you can have the illusion of building trains that will go out to the rest of the world.
Picture this, you have a local that you just switched on the industrial side. You are bringing back empties and outgoing product. You bring them into the yard, and based upon where the cars are going, you build and send one through train east and one through train west. When those trains "return" (you let them set on the main on the other side until it is time for the next through train to return), you build a new train to be switched locally, and you send it to the industrial side to be switched out,
You still can have an industry or two on the yard side if you choose, but separate the major switching action from the yard.
3) You can put in a turntable. You may not be able to turn trains, but you can turn engines and passenger cars. You'll want this if you operate as described above.
In addition, switching your industries from an east-bound train will be different than switching them from a west-bound train.
****************
Next, I would work a way to bring in passenger service. Since this could be branch line, you can use a Hoodlebug as they were called here, an RDC. I believe Bachmann makes one for NYC.
The goal is to create a working railroad, not just a way to run trains. Think of what you need to make it work like the real thing. You can always run trains on an operating railroad.
The good news is you are getting close. Don't settle until it is just the way you want it.
Chip like the design, and the webpage. Been going through it for a few days now. I take a look when at my desk now wanting to do work, which is often.
I like the idea of a through yard, I kind of have that on this new design but probably not as optimal as it should be. Tried to duplicate some of Phil's design which in theory was still pretty close to the plan of my old one, just designed much better.
Great to have all the help from you guys. Feel free to keep it coming.
About the plan, red line is a backdrop. I'll get my nice town for viewing and some switching along with industrial on other side. Not sure about my runaround if I gave it enough room, I can expand that if need be.
Judging by my roads I'm not a city planner, but that will be changed after researching my scenery and checking out a few books.
Smallest radius is 12.5 degrees and may go with transition era since I may have problems with big steam.
Any thoughts on if my center distance gives me enough clearance for trains?
As always, thanks for the help.
Not bad Chip,.....not bad! Staging too!
Rob,
See, I told you Chip was good at this!
Hi Rob,
I got up a little early and I told my self I wasn't going to design you a layout, that you had it under control, I wasn't going, to, but you know if I just did this and this....and well here it is.
Going by your first post, you gave your druthers as:
NY Central 1950-1955--this means big steam. The turnouts I used were Peco Large for the mains and Peco Mediums for the sidings. Minimum radius around 13.5"
Interchange track. The double main represents the New York Central Main; the loop is a branch line. The layout is expandable as you gain larger space.
Staging--This is hidden behind a short backdrop. You shouldn't have to remove it if you keep it low.
The yard is for exchanging cars between the main and the branch. The turntable is for fun, but it serves the purpose of turning the engines and looks cool.
OF course, there is a variety of industrial switching.
This layout is for amusement purposes only. I doubt it is what you envisioned. Take it or leave it for as much or as little as you want. Naturally you would modify the switching when you start shopping for industrial buildings.
Hey Guys,
Phil, I never mind you throwing something together.
Chip I see what you are saying about the software. I don't think it's the software as much as it's the library I had loaded. I switched to Atlas N Code 50 from the Atlas N Track and I can really see the difference, much cleaner if that makes sense. Giving a shot at Phil's layout design and incorporating what I had in my own. So basically making the suggestions you all had from the beginning. lol
Haven't finished the design yet, 1:30a and my eyes went buggy. Odd how that can happen looking at a computer for 15 hours out of the day everyday.
One thing I am worried about is the track center distance between the parallel tracks. Is it about an inch and am eight for n scale and a little larger on turns? I have Track Planning by John Armstrong (the bible) and it's 2 1/4 for HO and I'm have to half it for N. Am I correct in this or is my head lodged in my @$$, which wouldn't be the first time.
Thanks for all the help. I'll post more as I finish.
The more I looked at this, the more something looked out of place. Chip hit the nail on the head.
I took the liberty of fooling with this a bit (hope you don't mind) and came up with this:
The scenery is generic and could be changed. The backdrop could go all the way across if you want. I just did a 3/4 one. The minimum radius is 12.5" on the inside and 13.75" on the outside. No curves on the layout are tighter then 12.5". All turnouts except those in the yard are #7's. The yard has #5's. And there's a small enginehouse too. Speaking of the yard, it has a proper lead now so that switching the yard doesn't foul the main. By tightening things up a few more industries were able to show up, thus enhanceing switching operations. The one thing I forgot was an interchange, but I suppose the business in the top right could go away and the interchange could be there.
It's not perfect, but its decent. It gives an idea of what can be done with your basic layout in the space.
When I first looked at your drawing my first response was, how is it that he can get so little int that space. Then it dawned on me that it was a limitation of the software, at least the way you are using it. Maybe Phillip can help you out there.
Go back and look at the layout I drew. You'll notice that the distance between the tracks on the double main is half what yours are. Look at the yard and runarounds--same thing. This is carried throughout your design. Your runaround takes double the space; your yard takes an incredible amount of space. ON my design, I'm using #8 turnouts and still getting more for the space.
On your design this is huge. It is almost as if you are designing in HO or TT.
AT any rate if you were to attach your yard at the straight at 6 o'clock and run the yard to the left and the lead to the right, you'll have a much better yard. You'll also have room for engine service above the yard to the left.
I think, though, you need to solve the software problem before you go further with the design. Either get help from Phillip or take the time to learn XtrkCAD.
Looking good.
You can eliminate another S-curve by changing one turnout from a right-hand to a left-hand in the lower left corner. Tracing down from the backdrop on the outter loop, the first turnout you come to is the one I'd swap from right-hand to left-hand to make the through route use the straight section of the turnout.
This is not bad....not bad at all! I think I'd rather have a seperate yard lead so switching didn't foul the main if it were mine, but not a bad plan.
BTW, your layout size is similar to Dave Vollmer's layout. Check out the N crowd thread on the opening pages for some good shots of his layout: http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1/1031635/ShowPost.aspx#1031635
Hey again,
Ok reworked the plan, taking into consideration (tried to) the great ideas you all had.
Chip, did take your idea with the backdrop splitting into two towns. One will be smalltown usa, the other the industrial center. I won't make the backdrop too tall since the layout will be going from dining table to under bed. Will be removable to make it under bed of course. Also, at about 42" I have it so the track set up so it will be easy to make sections. All curves are now 11 degrees which should work with the cars that I have. If I were able to make it wider I'd go with 12-13, but this will have to do.
Hoping the runaround is big enough now but may have to derail in the lead which I don't think is too big a drawback. I may make that whole row industy on either side and maintenance buildings on the runaround. Not sure yet.
Changed the yard a little bit too. Wanted the trains to pull directly into the yard which I think could work out well.
All in all the trackwork portion is neater with less "hope it really fits" spots. Think I eliminated some "S" curves but may have added others. Nothing too drastic that a slow moving train couldn't handle. Also changed that crossover.
I like the fact that I have room to make a nice town scene and raise it so it looks over the tracks. If my ability can match the mental picture could look nice.
As always, thoughts appreciated!!
Looks like an interesting track plan!
underworld
Funny, I had the same thoughts... widen the turn radius and eliminate that extra crossover when I looked at it too :)
I like Chip's plan with the backdrop too... even if you kept the backdrop low, maybe only a couple inches higher than the rooftops, it would still be effective I think.
pcarrell wrote: BTW, Chip's right on about the backdrop. It would be easy for you to do too!
I don't know about being better at designing. I do like doing it. Mostly, people here really helped me when I did my first layout. I just figure it's time to give back.
As for the backdrop, because it is going under a bed, it would have to be easily removable and restored. Still, it increase both operations and variety.
OK, doing it that way on the industrial spur you could probably finagle maybe three cars around at a time.
The biggest change would be to reverse the crossover in the lower right. It would not only flow better, but it would also eliminate the "S" turn.
As to Chip and myself.........we both love track planning, though I think he's better at it then I am. As such, we both tend to respond to those kinds of posts. In theory, the more we comment on these, the better we get at it. At least, I hope thats how it works out!
BTW, Chip's right on about the backdrop. It would be easy for you to do too!
Somehow I knew it would be you two that were going to respond to my post. You have on the other track plan posts I've thrown out there.
Thanks as always.
Hey Phil, the runaround track I was thinking would be just the locomotive moving around pulling and pushing cars into the spurs. That is why I didn't make it too much longer. Not sure if this is prototypical or not, but at least that was my reasoning. To make it clearer (of confuse the issue, not sure which) I would stop the train on lead into the industrial tracks, uncouple the loco with the cars for the Brewery and move them forward past the switch. Back them up so they aren't on the switches, then uncouple loco, run it around use the runaround track then couple at the end of cars and push them into Brewery spur. Then repeat for the other two spurs. Also have to figure out how to get empties at this time as well. Again I'd like to make that longer if I could, but not sure I can without shortening spurs to increase runaround. Which I guess I could do being that there is some room there. Ok so now I just kind of thought out loud and typed as I was thinking.
Hey Chip, the outer curved track is 11 degrees, I'll try to make that the inner and increase the outer curve track. This isn't even going to be a freestanding layout. It's going on the dining room table and then under the bed when not in use. I have to build in in two halves and make it lightweight. The little woman doesn't want it out all the time so I had to make concessions. Those are my givens unfortunately. I've pretty much used about all the room I can muster with this design.
I'll try and work something out and repost it here. Thanks again guys.
I took a look at your plan, and it looks good overall. I can see that you've put some thought into it. I have a couple of suggestions, some that you've already pointed out, that might help. I noted the changes directly onto your pic.
You have a lot of space there. Take a look at what you really want and put it in. I'd try to upgrade those curves to 12-15" I have a plan for your area almost--It is 84 x 42. The main thing I'd ask you to to look at is the backdrop. It creates two entirely different scenes and therefore adds a lot of variety. I switch between scenery and urban canyons. But if you had two towns, one could be staging for the other.
Hey all, haven't posted here in a few months although still reading up.
Well I have a new plan that I put together. It's a small layout, 3x7 (ish) in N-scale. Time period will be 1950-1955, region will be northeast, looking at NY Central line. Completely freelanced, looking for a little switching via a couple industries, staging and an interchange track. The two industries are small, maybe furniture or brewing, possibly paper with raw materials coming from staging or interchange. There is also some continuous running if I want to.
Smallest radius is 9 3/4 so I know that will limit my trains which is fine. This layout is more for building purposes (practice) and of course running some trains with some realistic operations.
Little about the layout. Staging on lower left. Interchange lower right. Industry in the middle with the town on north and south side. With the industries to the left and right, I made a run around track in the middle to drop off and pick up cars more easily.
The towns are going to be on slight hills (green outlines) to give me a little change in height. The track will remain flat. Roads are the black lines, and are there for flavor. They are subject to change as are the buildings. Buildings are actual footprints from DPM buildings (which I have several) and Walthers Cornerstone. Towns will be connected with overpasses which is a scene I would like going over the track (a druther). River and farm middle left are very optional, but I would like a trestle or bridge of some sort on the layout (druther #2) which is why I'm thinking the river will stay. Could change that to small lake/pond with waterway leading off layout to bridge over.
I want to build a nice scene and run some trains around. Don't really have room for much more than this. Apartment living.
Well here it is. Let me know what you think. All opinions welcomed and appreciated.
There is one crossover from a passing track that I want to reverse, right above beginning of staging ladder or get rid of all together. I also know I have a few s curves along the way.