DCC Systems

[Anonymous]

I am looking for a DCC for my layout (small but I am expanding it), what manufacturer do you recomend?

[Anonymous]

Cmdr.WedgeAntilles:

Sometimes this gets to be a very emotional argument that no one wins. I will tell what I use any why. I have been working with various digital control systems of my own design for the last 20 years.

The NMRA specifies track power and signaling, what command stations must do and how decoders must respond to packets. They intenionally did not specify how any of this is implemented. More importantly, they did not specify how system components talk to one another, for example how a throttle sends commands to a control station. That's a good thing because it leaves the manufacturers free to come up with very usefull products.

When the NMRA adopted the DCC S9 and RP's I switched to DCC. I did a through search of the products on the market at that time (1995). I decided that Digitrax had the best system and that's what I bought. Here are some reasons why.

There system is very well thought out. One can start with as small or large a system as they want but are not limited when they want to expand. Their prices are reasonable and the product range is good.

The real clincher for me was LocoNet, the network technology used to interconnect the system components. It's Ethernet for model railroads. Wiring is simple and things just plug togather and work. I use it with a computer to program decoders and control some layout functions.

Please note that a computer is NOT required, it's a nice option if you want it. Loy's Toys has a good ahalysis of his decision to go with Digitrax. The URL is http://www.loystoys.com/. The Digitrax web site has an area called "The Digitrax Difference" that you might want to look at. They publi***he LocoNet specifications and are free for personal use.

There are now several other vendors that produce LocoNet compatible products. It short, I think it's the most powerfull and versitle system on the market and it's not the highest priced. After 8 years of use I am still very happy with it.

Regards;
Ken

[Anonymous]

Check out Loy's Toy's or Tony exchange, they have a lot of useful info on different makers,

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pacificnorthern

Check out Loy's Toy's or Tony exchange, they have a lot of useful info on different makers,

Ditto, definatly tony's.

it all depends on your needs, so check out tony's comparisons.

[Anonymous]

The two big players are Digitrax and Lenz. Digitrax is number one in North America, Lenz is number one in Europe. Both are very good systems, either will bring a smile to your face. Although I own Digitrax, I'm beginning to think Zimo is the best (I'm interested in computer run trains) but it is pricey. Atlas is Lenz.

[Anonymous]

I have read what has been written here and am very interested in this forum's views as I'm in the final stages of deciding what DCC system I would like to purchase.

I've been to one of the local clubs and they use a Digitrax Super Empire Builder system which I was very impressed with. I'd also seen another system, a Lenz 100, operating and was equally impressed.

I'm debating the purchase of either the Digitrax Super Chief or the Lenz 100 system. Apart from the very strong warranty offered by Lenz, the main difference would appear to be that the Digitrax system does not have an NMRA conformance. What is meant by that? And how does it impact (if it does)?

Secondly, the Digitrax system does not allow software upgrades. How does this impact, as I had heard there were modules (signal systems) that could be added to this system which in effect appear to be upgrades as such. Is that true?

I have also heard on the grapevine that with the Lenz system you may have to stop the running of locomotives should you wi***o introduce another loco to the system while you program it. While with Digitrax, all that's required is a dedicated length of track with out interupting the trains running. Is that true?

Finally, although I have never used the DT400 throttle I'm greatly impressed by what I've read. How does that compare with the the throttle offered by Lenz, as I have used a throttle from the Lenz 01 set and was reasonably impressed?

As you can see I'm very close to purchasing, and at this point have a leaning toward Digitrax without really knowing too much about the software of each system. I would be very appreciative of this forum's views,

Regards,

Geoff Bell
Perth. W.A.

[Anonymous]

Geoff:

Let me try to take you questions in sequence.

First, NMRA conformance. This means that the NMRA has verified that a manufacturers product meets all the S9 and RP9 requriements for interoperatibility. Digatrax is ABSOLUTLY NMRA compliant, any comments to the contrary are marketing bull.

Second, software upgrades ARE available for Digatrax, though you will probably not need them. The Empire Builder is not Digitrax's best set. Look at the Super Chief for a more direct comparision to Lenz.

The signaling systems you refer to are not software upgrades in the usual sense. They are LocoNet add on's jhat you just plug in and they work. See my reply to Cmdr.WedgeAntilles above for more details.

The bottom line is that almost any GOOD system will work. Most decoders and command stations willo play together OK. The command station you choise should boil down to what you want and how you will use it. Lenz and most other systems use a polled network while Digitrax uses a CMSACD network. How important this will depend on how much expansion you want.

If you are going to run 5 or less trains at once and don't care about computer control, transponding, or signalling, then any system will be OK. If you want an open ended system that can adapt to future options then Digatrax has all the advantages.

Regards;

Ken

[ClinchValleySD40]

Before you decide, make sure to try all systems. I don't know where you live, but there are probably layouts running DCC in the area. Figure out where you want to go with it, what you want it to do today and look for a system with the features you need. But don't buy anything until you actually try it and see if it is what you want. Comparison shop as much as you can.

[Anonymous]

Also consider which systems other modelersin your area are using. I have EasyDCC, but some others locally have Digitrax and so on. Most all of the systems are very good, but each has it's quirks, etc. If you know several guys (or gals) who use a certain system why not get the same system and have a lot of local experienced support from your hobby friends?

[BR60103]

I will echo ebriley's comment. Get a system that has some local users. Ask if you can come over and see it (try it) in operation. You will need someone to ask questions of at some point in the installation/ setup/ running. Like all computer manuals, the instruction books at some points will be quite opaque.
3 points:
Your controllers and power units will all have to be from the same system.
All decoders should work with any controllers.
After you wire the layout you can change controllers without changing the wiring. (* handheld wiring excepted, maybe.)

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen, thanks for your time in responding to my qestions.

The main systems in the area are Lenz and Digitrax...hence the comparison.

I've decided to go with the Digitrax Super Chief. My reasons for this are the greater number of modellers using that system. In the end this was probably the main consideration, for when you want others to come around and have fun it's a lot easier if they bring a controller with them that is compatable.

Secondly, it would appear that the Digistrax is a lot more user friendly than the others. Some modellers I had spoken to had suggested that I look at NCE, however, the scarcity of that system in the neighbourhood made it unrealistic.

I had used controllers from both Digitrax (DT300) and Lenz (from the 01 set) and the functionality of each had impressed. In retrospect, to include that as part of my question, when it is a personal value judgement, was probably out of place.

However, the replies received were very much appreciated and you views taken on board as they have certainly assisted in the decision making process.

Thanks again

Geoff Bell
Perth W.A.

[Anonymous]

What a reversal, I'm so used to reading that NCE is easier to use than Digitrax (I own Digitrax). I guess the "new" cabs put out by Digitrax have simplified the running and programming of engines.

[tomytuna]

you want simple...user friendly...MRC....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kbrant

Geoff:

Let me try to take you questions in sequence.

First, NMRA conformance. This means that the NMRA has verified that a manufacturers product meets all the S9 and RP9 requriements for interoperatibility. Digatrax is ABSOLUTLY NMRA compliant, any comments to the contrary are marketing bull.

Sorry, Ken.

Digitrax only has a small number of conformance warrants, and most are on products they no longer produce.

Digitrax claims NMRA compatability, and I have not seen any evidence to the contrary, but they are not compliant until they earn the warrant.

An NMRA conformance warrant is not marketing bull. It is an important indicator to the model railroad consumer that the product contained within will interoperate with other warranted products. Many other DCC manufacturers have earned warrants, allong with traditional model railroad manufacturers. I wish more manufacturers and consumers would take the warrants and the products that bear them more seriously.

Oh, and by the way, I spent 5 years testing products for the NMRA, including developing the tests for, and testing DCC decoders.

Doug Menke

[Anonymous]

Doug,
I appreciate the spirit of accuracy in your post, but I question the wisdom of it. Most people coming here and asking questions about systems are fairly green behind the ears. Whether Digitrax does everything according to Hoyle is less important than does everything run with Digitrax. At present the only thing I can think of is "bi-directional" running which may not be a happy camper with the Digitrax system as is transponding may not be a happy camper on a Lenz system, but then I could be wrong.

So a new guy reading your comment may think - "hey I shouldn't get Digitrax because...." just as the person above did. But the reality as you and I know it, is that North America is a Digitrax town. I think for most guys running Digitrax, it would come as a surprise that Digi doesn't have a warrant in a certain area. Two seconds after the surprise wore off, they'd go back to running their trains with Digitrax with a smile on their face.

The issue for a newbie to this forum asking about DCC is this - "will the system put a smile on my face and be reasonably priced and expandible in the future?" The answer to all those questions concerning Digitrax is yes, and probably with less software upgrades than Lenz, as is already the case.

[Anonymous]

Doug:

You are technically correct. In retrospect I should have worded it differently. The fact is that most products follow the rules and work as they should even if they don’t have a conformance warrant.

You may be aware of the discussions now going on with respect to some proposed changes to the RP9's. That may be why some vendors are slow getting conformance warrants for new products. Not to mention a difference of opinion between some in the working groups and the vendors that best not talked about here.

I also think Rick's comments are very valid. What most people care about is "does this stuff work". In that context both Digitrax and Lenz have extensions that are beyond the NMRA and therefore are not compatible with each other.

My apologies to all if I misled anyone, that was not my intention.

Regards;

Ken

[horter1]

I am looking at a low end system, such as MRC or Atlas. Does anyone have any experience with either of these two systems or am I being too cheap? I have a moderate sized layout and anticipate running no more than 4 trains/consists at anytime. I will not being controlling switches as I enjoy hand thrown switches. However, I could see operating signals but this is just a fantasy right now as I have not begun researching the practicalities of doing so. Right now, my biggest concern is consisting. All my trains operate in consist fashion. I have been reviewing this aspect of several systems and I am not sure of this ability with the MRC or Atlas system. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Anonymous]

Go with Atlas over MRC, it will be much more expandible and is a better system. When you first get in, your tastes - electronically - can be somewhat unsophisticated, mine was. But as you grow in the hobby and the field of DCC, and maybe even an expanding layout, you might be surprised at what you want your system to do for you two, three or four years from now. Atlas is Lenz, so you have a large company products backing Atlas.

[Anonymous]

What are the factors to consider in making the DCC v. DC decision?

Right now I am in the armchair phase of modelling. I have some snap-together track with about a half dozen switches that my daughter and I play with on the floor. Plans are to start building a layout in a few months (once the basement is finished up).

[ClinchValleySD40]

Figure out what you want to do with it, then go out and try every one you can. No way anybody on the internet can tell you which one is best for you.

[dehusman]

I have used NCE, EasyDCC and Digitrax. I prefer EasyDCC and NCE. I own NCE, as does two or three other people in my area. Most of the rest that I am friends with use EasyDCC.

I prefer the handheld controllers of NCE and EasyDCC to those of Digitrax. NCE had (and I will use the past tense since I haven't operated a "new" Digitrax or EasyDCC system lately) the best system for entering 4 digit loco addresses among the systems I have used. The other systems had you "double clutching" to enter a four digit engine number or else were set up for two digits which was a royal pain in the ***. The ease of 4 digit addressing was one of the primary reasons I bought NCE.

I would reccommend trying to get to radio throttles asap. They are a wonderful thing. No cords to string across aisles, no having to fight for plugs. Gives you true freedom. NCE, EasyDCC and Digitrax all have radio throttles. NCE are set up as a two way system, the throttle can recive information from the system as well as send it, but the system only has the capability of one base antenna. The other two can use multiple antennas so if you have a reaaaaalllly large layout or a really convoluted basement shape that might give you better coverage, but its one way communication. If you are going to use "dumb" throttles (forward, reverse, keypad and a knob) it doesn't matter, if you want the capability of an interactive display on the throttle then the NCE might be better.

Also consider using what your friends have. Being able to borrow throttles, etc for op sessions, open houses is big plus and may outweigh any minor differences. It also allows a critical pool of trouble shooting talent.

Buy the biggest system you can afford. A big system with all the bells and whistles is just as easy to operate and wire as the simple system. Why spend $150 on a system now, then sell it for $50 so you can buy a $400 system a year later. Cut to the chase and buy the "good" system up front if you can afford it.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Tztyn asked:

"What are the factors to consider in making the DCC v. DC decision?

Right now I am in the armchair phase of modelling. I have some snap-together track with about a half dozen switches that my daughter and I play with on the floor. Plans are to start building a layout in a few months (once the basement is finished up)."

My response:

Hmmm, have been thinking about your question. So I am going to make some assumptions that will probably get me into trouble, but here goes.

1) I am assuming you electrical knowledge is only slightly beyound knowing how to turn out the lights in the house (this is where I was at in the hobby).

2) I am assuming the one area you are nervous about in the hobby is the electrical wiring if it starts to get "intricate."

3) I am assuming you are in the hobby for life.

4) I am assuming you love the computers you own, love being on the internet and wouldn't go back to a typewriter if they paid you too.

5) I am assuming that you are thinking ahead in the hobby over the next 20 years or so.

6) I am assuming you prefer simple over complex, but are willing to nibble away at the complex so that it becomes simple.

7) I am assuming you want to have a number of turnouts, sidings, passing track, etc so that you will be running more than one train at a time (maybe with your son or daughter or a buddy). Build it and they will come.

8) Want to impress your friends with how sophisticated electronically you are?

If the answer to all of these questions is yes, then you are an excellent DCC candidate.

The simplest wiring you can do on a more "extensive" layout is wiring for DCC with manual, not electric throw switches. David Barrow lays this system out in his "Dominoes" theory of building benchwork and electrical work. But some of the most complex wiring you can do on a layout is one run with DCC including computer run trains and signalling (remember nibbling at the complex so that it becomes simple).

Block running on a layout with DC wears thin quickly, especially on smaller layouts where you can be throwing block toggles a lot in a very short space and time.

All the "whistles and Bells" - quite literally - are being designed with DCC in mind.

Imagine how impressed your non-train friends will be when you explain how DCC works (once you have figured it out...lol).

DC is yesterdays technology, DCC is tomorrow's technology. Already in Europe, companies like Marklin are marketing "starter" train sets with a DCC system enclosed. Its only a matter of time before this becomes a North American reality.

All the R&D in the industry is towards DCC and nothing is happening R&D wise in DC. The most exciting areas are decoder functions increasing - some of it pretty exciting, signalling, computer running, and an area that no one has explored but I think is only a matter of time, animated structures you purchase that are ready to run, with decoder included.

[tomytuna]

Atlas system is Not user friendley...MRC is very user friendly....i started with Atlas...returned to store for MRC and have been happy ever since....Tom

[Anonymous]

Rick,

Thanks for the detailed reply, and your assumptions are not too far off the mark! DCC has always sounded like more fun right from the start. I'm just trying to work myself up to spending the money on it. Since I don't really have a layout right, that's not really an issue.

Tony

[horter1]

Thank you, Rick. I was leaning toward the Prodigy but I'll revisit Atlas.

[Anonymous]

I have a 10x10 foot layout in progress. I am planning on using Digitrax. The most operators I will have at one time is three. Probably no more than 7 locos at one time. Would the Zephyr system be a good choice for me?
Reed

[Anonymous]

Two questions:

1)Can I wire a DCC system to work with my already existing block system?
2)How do you install a decoder in the locomtive?

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Cmdr.WedgeAntilles

Two questions:

1)Can I wire a DCC system to work with my already existing block system?
2)How do you install a decoder in the locomtive?

• Yes, just replace one of your DC throttles with the DCC system. You must have adequate wiring for this, as DCC is very sensitive to voltage loss


• It depends on the locomotive. For DCC ready, you either plug in the decoder (most) or solder the correct wire to each of several solder pads (very few). For non-DCC ready, you need to electrically isolate the motor from the frame. The two wires from the motor go to the decoder, two wires with track power go to the decoder, and wires for lights, which share a common ground go to the decoder.
  
  See;
  http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/index.html
  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/
  http://www.digitrax.com/appnote.htm#install
  

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by horter1

I am looking at a low end system, such as MRC or Atlas. Does anyone have any experience with either of these two systems or am I being too cheap? I have a moderate sized layout and anticipate running no more than 4 trains/consists at anytime. I will not being controlling switches as I enjoy hand thrown switches. However, I could see operating signals but this is just a fantasy right now as I have not begun researching the practicalities of doing so. Right now, my biggest concern is consisting. All my trains operate in consist fashion. I have been reviewing this aspect of several systems and I am not sure of this ability with the MRC or Atlas system. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

If you ever want to run sound equipped locomotives, neither of the above is completely capable. From: http://www.broadway-limited.com/

"Q: Which DCC command stations are compatible with BLI engines?

A: Two DCC systems, NCE and Digitrax Chief have tested to be most compatible with BLI engines. For more details, please refer to Appendix of DCC manual posted on this web site. "

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rsn48

The two big players are Digitrax and Lenz. Digitrax is number one in North America, Lenz is number one in Europe. Both are very good systems, either will bring a smile to your face. Although I own Digitrax, I'm beginning to think Zimo is the best (I'm interested in computer run trains) but it is pricey. Atlas is Lenz.

What is it about zimo that is better so far as computer/automation is concerned?
thanks