UPDATE #2: Power Districts vs. Power Boosters - Do I have this right ?

[jbinkley60]

I split mine up so that 4 of the blocks come to one panel and are powered by one 8A booster today and one PS4.  The other 6 blocks come to the other panel and are pwoer by 2 - 5A boosters, a PS4 and a PSREV.  The only thing connecting them together is the Loconet cable.  I am not familiar enough with the NCE system to know how easy it is to split the components up.  Either way, it looks like you are on your way now. 

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Jeff, I was thinking about the multiple power panels. I need to spend some serious time drawing this out.  I had planned at one time to have the program track (NCE Pro) up in the Taylor yard.  May decide to use one of the garden tracks in the TT instead.

Thanks again and regards,

[jbinkley60]

Okay. Hopefully this is the last go-a-round.

I indicated here where the insulated joiners will go and labeled each B1 Main, B2 Main etc.

I tried to keep the switchers within their own district and tried to equalize B1 and B2 mains.

B8 Staging might not justify a breadker district by itself, but, since this will call for 2 PS Fours and 2 PS Rev units I'll plan for now on isolating Staging.

http://home.austin.rr.com/tomsandy/BreakerDist.pdf

Thanks again for the help getting this figured out.

Regards,

Tom,

It looks good. I had to look at it a few times to ensure I didn't miss any insulators or blocks.  One thing I did was pick a spur and use it also as a programming track by hooking the other side of the DPDT block switch to the programming output of my DCS100.  You might also want to consider multiple power panels, one on each side of the layout.  Just a thought.

 

 

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Okay. Hopefully this is the last go-a-round.

I indicated here where the insulated joiners will go and labeled each B1 Main, B2 Main etc.

I tried to keep the switchers within their own district and tried to equalize B1 and B2 mains.

B8 Staging might not justify a breadker district by itself, but, since this will call for 2 PS Fours and 2 PS Rev units I'll plan for now on isolating Staging.

http://home.austin.rr.com/tomsandy/BreakerDist.pdf

Thanks again for the help getting this figured out.

Regards,

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Thanks Ed. Good input.

I have ~ 8 pullmans now, un-powered.  Will I eventually put lighting kits in them ? ... yes ... no ... yes ... no ... maybe ... well possibly

Details, details. Now I know why they call the train driver an engineer.

Regards,

[gmpullman]

Tom,
I just discovered an area that I should have thought out the power districts a little more thoroughly. I use 2 PS Fours and 2 PS Revs for a total of 10 breaker protected districts. But I didn't keep in mind the number of sound equipped locomotives that congregate around the engine terminal and Union Station along with the numerous lighted passenger cars. If you are going to have an area like this be sure to have smaller groupings of tracks in that power district.
I had trouble with a PS four resetting until I realised that I had 6 sound locomotives and about 15 lighted passenger cars in the station.

You could use spdt's to isolate certain tracks but I like to keep the engines "live" and the car lights lit.

Just something to watch for. And don't forget to jumper the PS-fours to a higher trip current. They're only about 3A by default.

Ed

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Thanks Randy and Jeff.

Yes. There is a reversing section that B2 is creating with the TO just SW of the crossing.  There is also another reversing section around B4. I have two reversing modules that I used on my prior N scale layout but may consider using the newer ones from Tony's as mine have relays and I think can handle a max of 2 amps.

B1 & B9 will probably have no more than 3 or 4 trains in each at one time. Considering each with sound and .6 amp each loco, that should come to about 2.4 amps being drawn in B1 and/or B9 at any one time - room to spare.

Thanks for the critiques.

Regards,

[rrinker]

   If you use the PS-REV there's no need to feed it off another breaker section, as the PS-REV is both a breaker and an autoreverser in one. You can feed it directly from the actual booster. I'd use two - if you can absolutely positively guarantee that there NEVER will be a train in both reverse loops at the same time you can get away with a single autoreverser, otherwise sooner or later it will happen and just shut down the two loops  due to conflicting needs to reverse.
 Based on the size of the plan I wouldn;t see more than 1 or two trains in those reverse loops. There is such a thing as overkill.


                                        --Randy

[jbinkley60]

Re-thinking my wiring based on inputs so far, I have now looked at this from a breaker standpoint vs. a the # of power boosters needed.

I broke the plan out into 9 breaker districts, so far. Each district is color coded. My mainline runs around the outside of the layout (B1 = breaker dist 1) and then can also tranverse the inside of the layout (B9). I've divided Taylor yard (top in drawing) into 2 districts (B7 & B8) and the isalnd in the middle with the TT and RH is it's own dist (B2).

Hopefully this is clear.

http://home.austin.rr.com/tomsandy/BreakerDist.pdf

Longest run (B6) from where I am thinking of centralizing the panels is about 22ft.

What do you think ?

Regards,

Randy nailed it, you have a reversing section around B2 and B3.  I can't tell whether you want to power it off of B1 or B9 but either way with two sets of insulators and a PS REV you create another block but feed it from B1 or B9, depending upon which one you want to supply power.   How many locomotives do you plan to have in B1 or B9 at a time and how many are sound ?  This will determine whether you need to break them up any further.

 

[rrinker]

You do have a reverse loop in there - the line around the yard in the center. If you are planning on using Tony's breakers you would need a PS-REV there instead of a section of a PS-1/2/4.

--Randy

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Re-thinking my wiring based on inputs so far, I have now looked at this from a breaker standpoint vs. a the # of power boosters needed.

I broke the plan out into 9 breaker districts, so far. Each district is color coded. My mainline runs around the outside of the layout (B1 = breaker dist 1) and then can also tranverse the inside of the layout (B9). I've divided Taylor yard (top in drawing) into 2 districts (B7 & B8) and the isalnd in the middle with the TT and RH is it's own dist (B2).

Hopefully this is clear.

http://home.austin.rr.com/tomsandy/BreakerDist.pdf

Longest run (B6) from where I am thinking of centralizing the panels is about 22ft.

What do you think ?

Regards,

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Thanks for the input Jeff.  I think I understand now and can plan appropriately.

Regards,

[jbinkley60]

Tom,

I have two main panels on my layout that cover both power handling for the track and controls for the turnouts.  I am building the second panel right now.  In this thread I discuss some of the techniques that worked for me:

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/950191/ShowPost.aspx

I use a switch on the track feeds, even though I have circuit breakers.  For me it just helps if I need to cut power for a reason but they really aren't necessary.  Also you can wire multiple districts/blocks to a power shield output, if youa re short on circuit breakers.  If you need to break them out later, just add the additional breaker capacity and move the wires over.  It is easier to do the proper wiring up front than to try and cut rails, run new wiring and such on a completed layout.   

 

 

Jeff, if I understand the above thread correctly, you mounted power shields on a central panel and ran  one set of wires from the power shields to each of the 10 areas ... sort of like having 10 buses under the layout, right ?  What guage wire did you use for the power runs ?

And, for the toroise you ran one CAT5 cable from the tortoise back to the other 66 block panel ?

Regards,

Tom,

Yes, it is like having 10 buses.  I used 14 ga for buses that were longer than 10-15' .  In a number of locations I could get away with 18ga. because the entire run back to the breaker was no more than 10' or so.  For example in yards I mount a termial block in the middle of the yard (underneath).  From there I can run 3' or so 18 ga feeders to the tracks and cover a yard up to 12' long.  Then I run 18ga back to the breaker when is another 4' or so of wire.  So I have a total run of 7' (14' round trip for the current) protected by a 5A breaker.  There will be no voltage drop issues with such a setup. The only place I really run much 14 ga is along the mainline and I have it broken into two blocks.  4 would have been better (dual mainline).  This way the total mainline is fed from 2 - 5A breakers.  This will limit the total number of motive power on the mainline.

Yes, for Tortoises I use 66 blocks and CAT5.  Moving wiring is a breeze with a punchdown tool.  I only take the coil leads to the control panel so I get a 4:1 reduction of the amount of wire to the panel.  If you want to take all leads to the control panel, that much Cat5 might get harder to work with on a large panel.

 

 

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Tom,

I have two main panels on my layout that cover both power handling for the track and controls for the turnouts.  I am building the second panel right now.  In this thread I discuss some of the techniques that worked for me:

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/950191/ShowPost.aspx

I use a switch on the track feeds, even though I have circuit breakers.  For me it just helps if I need to cut power for a reason but they really aren't necessary.  Also you can wire multiple districts/blocks to a power shield output, if youa re short on circuit breakers.  If you need to break them out later, just add the additional breaker capacity and move the wires over.  It is easier to do the proper wiring up front than to try and cut rails, run new wiring and such on a completed layout.   

 

 

Jeff, if I understand the above thread correctly, you mounted power shields on a central panel and ran  one set of wires from the power shields to each of the 10 areas ... sort of like having 10 buses under the layout, right ?  What guage wire did you use for the power runs ?

And, for the toroise you ran one CAT5 cable from the tortoise back to the other 66 block panel ?

Regards,

[jbinkley60]

Tom,

I have two main panels on my layout that cover both power handling for the track and controls for the turnouts.  I am building the second panel right now.  In this thread I discuss some of the techniques that worked for me:

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/950191/ShowPost.aspx

I use a switch on the track feeds, even though I have circuit breakers.  For me it just helps if I need to cut power for a reason but they really aren't necessary.  Also you can wire multiple districts/blocks to a power shield output, if youa re short on circuit breakers.  If you need to break them out later, just add the additional breaker capacity and move the wires over.  It is easier to do the proper wiring up front than to try and cut rails, run new wiring and such on a completed layout.   

 

 

[Tom Bryant_MR]

One suggestion I have is the more the better, with regards to districts or blocks.  I have a 11'x13' layout with 10 districts.  That allows me to go up to 10 boosters with minimial wiring "basically move the feed to or from the circuit breaker, depending upon your breaker layout and model".  No running new feeders or drops on the layout.  Right now I have three boosters, which I feel I will grow into with the number of sounds unit sI have an plan to acquire.  If I need to add more boosters, it is a simple task.  Also if you ever want to do signaling, it becomes a benefit and 10 would likely not be enough on my layout.  Lastly, the additional districts cuts down on the overall bus wire length.  100' runs become  25' runs etc...

 

 

This becomes more clear to me now. I should go back and divide based on blocks or districts (e.g. power shields).  Intially, all districts/blocks could be fed from my current booster.  As I add more locos, I can add additional boosters.

Now, I need to think about routing the wiring - distribution panel might be in order with all wiring terminating there.

Brilliant

[jbinkley60]

One suggestion I have is the more the better, with regards to districts or blocks.  I have a 11'x13' layout with 10 districts.  That allows me to go up to 10 boosters with minimial wiring "basically move the feed to or from the circuit breaker, depending upon your breaker layout and model".  No running new feeders or drops on the layout.  Right now I have three boosters, which I feel I will grow into with the number of sounds unit sI have an plan to acquire.  If I need to add more boosters, it is a simple task.  Also if you ever want to do signaling, it becomes a benefit and 10 would likely not be enough on my layout.  Lastly, the additional districts cuts down on the overall bus wire length.  100' runs become  25' runs etc...

 

 

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Here's an article that Model Railroader just sent out this evening.

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=918

 

 

Perfect.  Talk about timing and thanks .

Regards,

[Tom Bryant_MR]

A couple of points:

First, allowing 0.6 A per engine is high, and might be more than you need.  Each would have to be running, at a fairly high speed.  Some overkill is good, though.

Second, do you ever plan a signalling system?  If so, be careful where you have more than one power district in the signalled area.  You can do it, but each group of detectors usually must be in a single district.  Your design, for example, would require at least two groups (assuming no part of District 3 is signalled), even if one would otherwise suffice.   

I agree with the overkill. For my worst case, one 5 amp booster is too little. Two may just get by.  I feel comfortable with three at this point. For this initial estimate I have not considered that I will more than likely put power kill switches in the 4 track staging yard. This would further reduce power needs at any one given time.

No.  I had not considered signalling.  Thanks for the reminder.

Regards,

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Thanks TZ. POWER1 does appear to cover a very large area and I need to put some further thought into that one.

Double heads ? Two for sure - the Texas Special and one other not yet decided.  They are part of the total locos but agreed, yet another factor to be aware of. Thanks for reminding me and is the very point of this post.

Reversing loops - I have two by my calculations. One is the loop in the lower left corner and two in the SW leg of the crossing - both in POWER1 right now.

BTW - love your recent book

Regards,

[jbinkley60]

Here's an article that Model Railroader just sent out this evening.

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=918

 

 

[Anonymous]

A couple of points:

First, allowing 0.6 A per engine is high, and might be more than you need.  Each would have to be running, at a fairly high speed.  Some overkill is good, though.

Second, do you ever plan a signalling system?  If so, be careful where you have more than one power district in the signalled area.  You can do it, but each group of detectors usually must be in a single district.  Your design, for example, would require at least two groups (assuming no part of District 3 is signalled), even if one would otherwise suffice.   

[Texas Zepher]

I like how you have identified the industries and come up with amperage, however, I think in POWER1 it might be more critical of how many trains are out running on the main line.  Unless all those industries are being worked at the same time they would not total like that.

I would not divide a block in a location where the train (loco) is constantly going back and forth across like the lead to the power plant.  Also if there are lighted passenger trains I would not break a block where a car might be sitting across a boundary like in the middle of a siding.

How  many double heads are going to be on the main?  Those areas will have to be x2 in the calculations.

There is also the reversing loop considerations. Depending on which equipment is used, often the reversing unit must be in the same power block as it's "main".

[Tom Bryant_MR]

I am at the point in construction that I need to consider where and how many boosters I will need and would like advice from the many out here who have "been there and done that".

Layout is HO approximately 19' by 16'.  I have assumed sound in all locos and basically filled the tracks with where a loco could be sitting.  This is worst case at ~ 25 locos and ops would be at a standstill. Will I have that many on the layout at one time or even that many operators? - maybe locos eventually but definitely not that many operators. 

So, disregarding breaking up each booster into power districts for now, have I got this figured right ?

See BreakDist.PDF below

Thanks,