Nightshade:
Welcome aboard. As you can see, there is a wealth of information on this forum. You received a lot of great information above. My answers would be a repeat of what was already said.
Modeling the B&M Railroad during the transition era in Lowell, MA
cacole wrote: You can gain a wealth of information about what DCC is and can do by reading or downloading the booklet entitled "DCC For Beginners" available on Tony's Train Exchange's web site at http://www.tonystrains.com
You can gain a wealth of information about what DCC is and can do by reading or downloading the booklet entitled "DCC For Beginners" available on Tony's Train Exchange's web site at http://www.tonystrains.com
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
get a copy of the EXELLENT book from Kalmbach about DCC (I forget what the name is) I think they also have other books on DCC.
Also, get some of their how-to books and DVDs on model railroading, too. They'll tell you everything you want to know.
Also, the forums at atlasrr.com (this is a GREAT one!!) trainboard.com the-guage.com & railroad-line.com
The books are availible through this site, at your L.H.S. (Local Hobby Store), on-line from a number dealers (just google "hobby shops") or from Kalmbachs web site at www.kalmbach.com/books
Nightshade wrote:1. I would like to make one layout and run multiple locomotives (2 - 3) on it vs. two separate tracks. I understand DCC will allow this?DCC will allow you to run up to a certain number of trains depending on the system. Most systems can run over 50 trains at the same time. The huge benefit over DC is that you can run multiple trains in multiple directions on the same section of track. 2. Is DCC tried and true or a new invention that hasn't quite been tested yet?DCC is reliable. North Coast Engineering (NCE) started in 1993. Digitrax has also been around for quite some time. They both have done this for years and have had a lot of time to work out the kinks. There will be some issues, but they are typically easy to deal with. The systems are typically durable, but they won't take certain kinds of abuse. High voltage, bad DC->DCC decoder wiring, drawing more amps than a decoder can handle, backfeeding DC into a DCC booster, failure to test decoders on programming track before trying them on the main track, reversing a locomotive while it's moving quickly, ect. will quickly send your decoders/boosters to the trash. Basically don't do anything really stupid. 3. I know my brass is probably not as good as silver nickel...is flex track the right way to go these days or should I stay with sectional? Flex is the way to go in one word: Flexibility. It does what you want, where you want it. Sectional does what it wants and doesn't flex to what you want it to do. 4. Can my old locos work on DCC? Is there a chip or something to make them work?Most locos can be converted. The steps required is to isolate and lights from the track power. Track power goes to the decoder, and the decoder only. Then you simply connect the motor, lights, ect. to the decoder. Test it on the programming track and give it it's own address (the locomotive number) and set other basic setting. Read the decoder to test it. If the loco is wired incorrectly, it will error out. If you run a badly wired loco on the track then the decoder will probably go up is smoke. The programming track has a resistor that will make that impossible.I perfer to get newer locos which are usually ready to take a decoder by pulling a socket and putting the decoder in. They typically run better, use less power, and are easy as pie to convert. Many are ready to roll with DCC.5. If I go DCC, what is a good economical system that seems to be the common one people get?Digitrax offers 3 good systems. They all work great, but more money gets more features. The throttles are good, but I'm not their biggest fan. I perfer NCE. They offer a $500 starter system that I have used extensively on multiple occasions on multiple layouts. It's got price shock but it is a dependable system that doesn't let me down. I love the procab. It fits my hand like a glove. EasyDCC by Bachmann can stick it where the sun don't shine. The only joy I would get from this system is if I seen one get thrown from a 5 story window. MRC makes a great DC system, but I would stand clear of their DCC.
1. I would like to make one layout and run multiple locomotives (2 - 3) on it vs. two separate tracks. I understand DCC will allow this?
2. Is DCC tried and true or a new invention that hasn't quite been tested yet?
DCC is reliable. North Coast Engineering (NCE) started in 1993. Digitrax has also been around for quite some time. They both have done this for years and have had a lot of time to work out the kinks. There will be some issues, but they are typically easy to deal with. The systems are typically durable, but they won't take certain kinds of abuse. High voltage, bad DC->DCC decoder wiring, drawing more amps than a decoder can handle, backfeeding DC into a DCC booster, failure to test decoders on programming track before trying them on the main track, reversing a locomotive while it's moving quickly, ect. will quickly send your decoders/boosters to the trash. Basically don't do anything really stupid.
3. I know my brass is probably not as good as silver nickel...is flex track the right way to go these days or should I stay with sectional?
Flex is the way to go in one word: Flexibility.
It does what you want, where you want it. Sectional does what it wants and doesn't flex to what you want it to do.
4. Can my old locos work on DCC? Is there a chip or something to make them work?
Most locos can be converted. The steps required is to isolate and lights from the track power. Track power goes to the decoder, and the decoder only. Then you simply connect the motor, lights, ect. to the decoder. Test it on the programming track and give it it's own address (the locomotive number) and set other basic setting. Read the decoder to test it. If the loco is wired incorrectly, it will error out. If you run a badly wired loco on the track then the decoder will probably go up is smoke. The programming track has a resistor that will make that impossible.
Nightshade wrote: Hello all, This is my first time with this forum. Hopefully I don't bother you with a bunch of redundent threads. I have all old HO Atlas brass sectional track and trains from the 70's and 80's. I have quite a bit of diorama experience and also grew up in Omaha. After WWII my dad worked the mail car on the Chicago - Cheyenne leg of the UP "City of Everywhere". I guess that tells a little about me and my experience with trains...but I was going to build a layout on an approx. 6 x 13 foot 'L' girder/cookie cutter style table (Linn Westcott's book). My layout will be patterned after something around the Chattanooga area ( I live just south of Memphis now) and the layout will be more rural and resemble the Blue Ridge Mts. a bit, so not a whole lot of turn-outs, rail yards, etc.. Just something that I can work on with my 5 year old....but can expand upon as he grows up. I would like to ask a few questions if I may..... 1. I would like to make one layout and run multiple locomotives (2 - 3) on it vs. two separate tracks. I understand DCC will allow this? Yes it will. My Digitrax Super Chief allows me to run up to 99 locos. However, I have a consist of 4 Broadway F units with power and sound that requires big ampheres and the Chief is a good fit. My road is not much bigger than yours in the space I was given. 2. Is DCC tried and true or a new invention that hasn't quite been tested yet? It is not a new invention but there is a constant "Bleeding edge" of new features and goodies coming out every year. Some of which works, others is not so good. Overall DCC allows us to network small computers on-board locomotives so they can accept commands just for that specific loco. 3. I know my brass is probably not as good as silver nickel...is flex track the right way to go these days or should I stay with sectional? I stopped using brass as a child and demanded NS track. As an adult I use a combination of sectional and flextrack. The key is to keep as few track joints as possible. The flextrack is very good for that. 4. Can my old locos work on DCC? Is there a chip or something to make them work? I think you are seeking a way to run the old "Analog" engines on a DCC system. If I remember right, you can set up the DCC throttle to Address 00 and it will "Talk" to the old engine on the track with voltage instead of data. 5. If I go DCC, what is a good economical system that seems to be the common one people get? DCC is a world where it will cost money the more and bigger you go. The Digitrax Zephyer is a good system for just one or two engines up to a total of about 10 in it's data base. But it's 2.5 amp power capacity is rather limited. The good thing is you can use other accessories to add on. I am anxious to read your thoughts based on all of your numerous experiences. I use both DC and DCC technology where it fits on my line. It is not much right now but I spent some extra dollars to purchase a top shelf system so I dont have to add on or upgrade for at least a few years. I am seeing improvements in Locomotives both in DCC and DC. I think eventually DCC will be standard equiptment everywhere but not just yet. DC is still a VERY good way to control one or two trains without decoders and computers. Has been around since the hobby started and will be around for a long time. However we must not get an attitude that if someone has a DCC system that they are somehow superior to the one who runs DC. We all enjoy trains and to buy a DCC simply because the "Joneses" have DCC is not a good reason. There is many things to learn and I expect my DCC Manual to be open for at least a few months to a year or more while I digest the new world of CV's Consists, Commands, Programming modes etc etc etc.... Another thing I learned is that the Motive Power on my railroad is very expensive because they are already equippted with DCC and Sound by the factory. I chose to buy my engines (Usually big steam) that way to avoid personal issues with nerves and fumes trying to build a seperate decoder and speaker into an analog engine. I usually try to carefully choose which engine to purchase. I did, however, purchase a small number of analog engines that are good candidates for Sound/DCC conversion in the future. I expect prices to drop and perhaps an affordable reputable installer will do the work with quality. Since I see dual-mode decoders for both DC and DCC I have to pay a little more for them and prefer factory installed units. Bottom line, DCC has become a large part of the budget and takes away from other things. In the past I was able to buy many of an item for X dollars. But now, because of technology, I can only get one or two items for the same X dollars. Consider the NS Atlas sectional track switch.... it's what? 12 dollars now? Ok, add a few wires, plastic base, velcro and then a Torquorise (Spelling??) switch motor to it and connect THAT to a DCC decoder for switches. That 12 dollar switch has zoomed up in cost to what... 35 dollars? At those prices KATO sectional track and PECO switches look attractive. But if you want to motorize them for DCC you will have to spend money to do so. For my railroad I choose Manual throws instead. Once everything is settled and all the bugs ironed out I can slowly convert to torquoriste and DCC decoders for each switch. Good Luck! Mike/Nightshade
Hello all,
This is my first time with this forum. Hopefully I don't bother you with a bunch of redundent threads.
I have all old HO Atlas brass sectional track and trains from the 70's and 80's. I have quite a bit of diorama experience and also grew up in Omaha. After WWII my dad worked the mail car on the Chicago - Cheyenne leg of the UP "City of Everywhere". I guess that tells a little about me and my experience with trains...but I was going to build a layout on an approx. 6 x 13 foot 'L' girder/cookie cutter style table (Linn Westcott's book). My layout will be patterned after something around the Chattanooga area ( I live just south of Memphis now) and the layout will be more rural and resemble the Blue Ridge Mts. a bit, so not a whole lot of turn-outs, rail yards, etc.. Just something that I can work on with my 5 year old....but can expand upon as he grows up.
I would like to ask a few questions if I may.....
Yes it will. My Digitrax Super Chief allows me to run up to 99 locos. However, I have a consist of 4 Broadway F units with power and sound that requires big ampheres and the Chief is a good fit. My road is not much bigger than yours in the space I was given.
It is not a new invention but there is a constant "Bleeding edge" of new features and goodies coming out every year. Some of which works, others is not so good. Overall DCC allows us to network small computers on-board locomotives so they can accept commands just for that specific loco.
I stopped using brass as a child and demanded NS track. As an adult I use a combination of sectional and flextrack. The key is to keep as few track joints as possible. The flextrack is very good for that.
I think you are seeking a way to run the old "Analog" engines on a DCC system. If I remember right, you can set up the DCC throttle to Address 00 and it will "Talk" to the old engine on the track with voltage instead of data.
5. If I go DCC, what is a good economical system that seems to be the common one people get?
DCC is a world where it will cost money the more and bigger you go. The Digitrax Zephyer is a good system for just one or two engines up to a total of about 10 in it's data base. But it's 2.5 amp power capacity is rather limited. The good thing is you can use other accessories to add on.
I am anxious to read your thoughts based on all of your numerous experiences.
I use both DC and DCC technology where it fits on my line. It is not much right now but I spent some extra dollars to purchase a top shelf system so I dont have to add on or upgrade for at least a few years.
I am seeing improvements in Locomotives both in DCC and DC. I think eventually DCC will be standard equiptment everywhere but not just yet.
DC is still a VERY good way to control one or two trains without decoders and computers. Has been around since the hobby started and will be around for a long time. However we must not get an attitude that if someone has a DCC system that they are somehow superior to the one who runs DC.
We all enjoy trains and to buy a DCC simply because the "Joneses" have DCC is not a good reason. There is many things to learn and I expect my DCC Manual to be open for at least a few months to a year or more while I digest the new world of CV's Consists, Commands, Programming modes etc etc etc....
Another thing I learned is that the Motive Power on my railroad is very expensive because they are already equippted with DCC and Sound by the factory. I chose to buy my engines (Usually big steam) that way to avoid personal issues with nerves and fumes trying to build a seperate decoder and speaker into an analog engine. I usually try to carefully choose which engine to purchase.
I did, however, purchase a small number of analog engines that are good candidates for Sound/DCC conversion in the future. I expect prices to drop and perhaps an affordable reputable installer will do the work with quality. Since I see dual-mode decoders for both DC and DCC I have to pay a little more for them and prefer factory installed units.
Bottom line, DCC has become a large part of the budget and takes away from other things. In the past I was able to buy many of an item for X dollars. But now, because of technology, I can only get one or two items for the same X dollars.
Consider the NS Atlas sectional track switch.... it's what? 12 dollars now? Ok, add a few wires, plastic base, velcro and then a Torquorise (Spelling??) switch motor to it and connect THAT to a DCC decoder for switches. That 12 dollar switch has zoomed up in cost to what... 35 dollars?
At those prices KATO sectional track and PECO switches look attractive. But if you want to motorize them for DCC you will have to spend money to do so.
For my railroad I choose Manual throws instead. Once everything is settled and all the bugs ironed out I can slowly convert to torquoriste and DCC decoders for each switch.
Good Luck!
Mike/Nightshade
Let me just say that one year ago, I was in the same place as you. First, all of the above info is great. Second, Tonystrains is a GREAT site. I can't say enough about how helpful he is... I got my NCE system from him and I got a bunch of extra instructions from him... very easy to use and setup. And the comment about being a kid at Xmas...well that is SOOO TRUE. 2 weeks or so ago I finally got around to setting up my DCC system and WOW. WOW. WOW!!!! Nothing like a sound equipped DCC steamer to make you just GIDDIE. Made me feel like an 8 year old boy in the basement again. BUT, I could run 2 trains at once!!! And so smooth. Anyways, go DCC!!! Post questions...these guys are great at helping us noobs!
Brian
MisterBeasley wrote: Hi and welcome to the forum. I came back to the hobby close to two years ago now, starting with a collection of trains that had been in boxes for 40 years, since I dismantled my HO layout as a teenager. As you've already discovered, it's best to discard all the old brass track, or chop it up and use it for scenery. (Old pieces of rail and ties lying by the right-of-way are a nice touch.) Yes, it's much easier to use flex-track. Get a Xuron rail-nipper to cut it to size. Great little tool. My locomotives are older than yours. I got a couple of them to work, but most will probably never run again under their own power. I did de-motor a couple of them, and now I run them as dummies. In DCC, each engine gets a chip called a "decoder." Modern engines typically are "DCC Ready" so it just plugs in. Older engines require a small amount of wiring, and you have to electrically "isolate" the motor from the frame on some of them. Still, this isn't a big deal. Yes, you can buy new wheelsets and new motors, but by the time you've done that, you'll have spent as much as you would on a new engine. New ones, by the way, run really well and have much nicer detailing. When I started out, I planned to run DC and eventually switch over to DCC. I wired the layout with two separate loops, so that I could run half-and-half if I wanted to. Then, I bought a DCC system and wired up a couple of trains. Suddenly, I was the little kid on Christmas morning again. It was just so much more fun to run the trains instead of the track. Within an hour I had ripped out the DC wiring, and I never went back. Yeah, it's really that good.
Hi and welcome to the forum. I came back to the hobby close to two years ago now, starting with a collection of trains that had been in boxes for 40 years, since I dismantled my HO layout as a teenager. As you've already discovered, it's best to discard all the old brass track, or chop it up and use it for scenery. (Old pieces of rail and ties lying by the right-of-way are a nice touch.) Yes, it's much easier to use flex-track. Get a Xuron rail-nipper to cut it to size. Great little tool.
My locomotives are older than yours. I got a couple of them to work, but most will probably never run again under their own power. I did de-motor a couple of them, and now I run them as dummies. In DCC, each engine gets a chip called a "decoder." Modern engines typically are "DCC Ready" so it just plugs in. Older engines require a small amount of wiring, and you have to electrically "isolate" the motor from the frame on some of them. Still, this isn't a big deal. Yes, you can buy new wheelsets and new motors, but by the time you've done that, you'll have spent as much as you would on a new engine. New ones, by the way, run really well and have much nicer detailing.
When I started out, I planned to run DC and eventually switch over to DCC. I wired the layout with two separate loops, so that I could run half-and-half if I wanted to. Then, I bought a DCC system and wired up a couple of trains. Suddenly, I was the little kid on Christmas morning again. It was just so much more fun to run the trains instead of the track. Within an hour I had ripped out the DC wiring, and I never went back. Yeah, it's really that good.
What he said
It will be a great excuse to pick up a few new locomotives. You will really be impressed what 25 years difference makes between the old locos and the new. I just went DCC a few weeks ago. It is well worth the switch and didn't cost much. Locomotives with sound is just icing on the cake. Here's a quick pic of my layout with DCC. Its not very large at only 11X7, but DCC REALLY makes it fun to operate a small layout.
Welcome. I returned a year ago.
Go with DCC at the start. I waited a year and it cost me.
Go with a mid level radio if you can afford it. I started with tethered, went to IR and then to radio. It cost me. I am a fan of Digitrax, the others seem to work. The ability to run many trains at the same time on the same track and walk around with them is really fun. My grandkids can run four trains at a time and it is a blast.
All my old brass engines ran with Digitrax right out of the box. The only retrictions were: only one at a time, and they needed to sit on unpowered track when not being run, just like DC.
Junk the brass rail. Go with flex and glue down with Latex caulk. I am on my fifth layout, and this is by far the best and the easiest. The people here will give some good advice on each step.
I am having the time of my life. Join us.
Hi Mike,
You have all the answers already above, so won't bother repeating them. I have been in a similar situation to you with 2 boys now 7 and 9. They were 3 and 5 when we started our layout. DCC, especially if you have sound in any locos (If you don't yet you will once you and your son hear one ). We have a Digitrax Zephyr and it is really very easy and intuitive for the young kids to run. The more traditional throttle like controls are easy on small hands and there are not too many buttons to press. My older boy likes to follow the trains, so we have added a couple of hand held throttles to the system. Anyway, with a young child I highly reccomend the Zephyr.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Nightshade wrote: Hello all, This is my first time with this forum. Hopefully I don't bother you with a bunch of redundent threads. I have all old HO Atlas brass sectional track and trains from the 70's and 80's. I have quite a bit of diorama experience and also grew up in Omaha. After WWII my dad worked the mail car on the Chicago - Cheyenne leg of the UP "City of Everywhere". I guess that tells a little about me and my experience with trains...but I was going to build a layout on an approx. 6 x 13 foot 'L' girder/cookie cutter style table (Linn Westcott's book). My layout will be patterned after something around the Chattanooga area ( I live just south of Memphis now) and the layout will be more rural and resemble the Blue Ridge Mts. a bit, so not a whole lot of turn-outs, rail yards, etc.. Just something that I can work on with my 5 year old....but can expand upon as he grows up. I would like to ask a few questions if I may..... 1. I would like to make one layout and run multiple locomotives (2 - 3) on it vs. two separate tracks. I understand DCC will allow this? 2. Is DCC tried and true or a new invention that hasn't quite been tested yet? 3. I know my brass is probably not as good as silver nickel...is flex track the right way to go these days or should I stay with sectional? 4. Can my old locos work on DCC? Is there a chip or something to make them work? 5. If I go DCC, what is a good economical system that seems to be the common one people get? I am anxious to read your thoughts based on all of your numerous experiences. Mike/Nightshade
A good answer above. I'll add my own thoughts:
1. This depends on the amperage that your system can provide to the motors via the wiring you do and the power source the system has. As a general rule, the older engines need more amperage to run, but when you add a decoder with sound to the newer, more efficient, motors, you lose much of, or more than, the advantage due to the need to drive the speaker(s). Count on 4-6 older non-sound DCC locomotives for the 2 amp systems, and maybe up to 10 with the 5 amp systems...give or take.
2. DCC is at least a 12 years old now, and it is evolving all the time. It works wonderfully, althought the architecture means that some systems are less intuitive in their use than others.
3. Flex track is the method that those who are quite experienced, and who chose not to handlay their own track, use. It comes in codes, with Code 100 being common, robust, and usable with even some of the larger flanges on the wheels and drivers of older stock...such as yours. Modern stuff has flanges that will, in most cases, run on Code 70 or less. The preferred Code for mainline running is often 80, but some guys will use the 70 and go to Code 50 for their sidings or industrial trackage. The code, by the way, is the height of the rail in thousandths of an inch.
4. Your old locos may indeed work, but you should do a lot of serious learning about their conversion if you feel you must do it yourself. For example, the motor draw will be an important factor as to the decoder you use. If you were to upgrade the motors to can motors, you might have a broader range of decoders from which to chose. In any event, you should do a mini-overhaul of your drive systems to ensure that they are optimal in function and in current draw. Bottom line, yes you must add a chip, and it may be much more of a pain than the locomotive is worth.
5. Ditto to what he said above. The thing to do, if at all possible, is to spend about five minutes with as many operating systems as you can. Looks are often what gets us into the store from magazine ads, but holding the item and getting it to do what you want it to do will not always jive. For example, you will undoubtedly find that some control paddles don't feel right, or that their control buttons and readout dial are somehow off-putting. Best to find out what works first-hand if that can be done with an hour's drive one Saturday morning.
I hope that helps.
Nightshade wrote: I would like to ask a few questions if I may..... 1. I would like to make one layout and run multiple locomotives (2 - 3) on it vs. two separate tracks. I understand DCC will allow this? Yes, absolutely. 2. Is DCC tried and true or a new invention that hasn't quite been tested yet? At least second generation, works well, getting easier to use all the time. 3. I know my brass is probably not as good as silver nickel...is flex track the right way to go these days or should I stay with sectional? I would use flex. 4. Can my old locos work on DCC? Is there a chip or something to make them work? Usually yes. With some it can be more of a challenge than others, but in HO it should be doable in most cases. 5. If I go DCC, what is a good economical system that seems to be the common one people get? The two entry level systems that seem to get the most attention are the Digitraz Zephyr and the NCE Power Cab. The MRC Prodigy Advance and Express also has proponents. Also look here http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/626133/ShowPost.aspx I am anxious to read your thoughts based on all of your numerous experiences. Mike/Nightshade
1. I would like to make one layout and run multiple locomotives (2 - 3) on it vs. two separate tracks. I understand DCC will allow this? Yes, absolutely.
2. Is DCC tried and true or a new invention that hasn't quite been tested yet? At least second generation, works well, getting easier to use all the time.
3. I know my brass is probably not as good as silver nickel...is flex track the right way to go these days or should I stay with sectional? I would use flex.
4. Can my old locos work on DCC? Is there a chip or something to make them work? Usually yes. With some it can be more of a challenge than others, but in HO it should be doable in most cases.
5. If I go DCC, what is a good economical system that seems to be the common one people get? The two entry level systems that seem to get the most attention are the Digitraz Zephyr and the NCE Power Cab. The MRC Prodigy Advance and Express also has proponents. Also look here http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/626133/ShowPost.aspx
Jeff But it's a dry heat!