Gazoo wrote: (...) 1. My frustration is that this seems like an activity where the advantages to "beginning with the end in mind" seem to outweigh a few lost months, or a year, before the track is laid. (...)
(...) 1. My frustration is that this seems like an activity where the advantages to "beginning with the end in mind" seem to outweigh a few lost months, or a year, before the track is laid. (...)
It is very important to plan, plan some more, and plan again.
I would say, second only to research, planning is the most important part of model railroading. For almost all the other aspects, you can find some way around it (either by using different products, or techniques; or soliciting help from other modelers).
So, yes, you must know where you want to end up and know how you're going to get there if you want to have an enjoyable experience with model trains. While it may seem that it takes forever before you lay a single track, having thoroughly researched and planned your layout will minimize the frustrations and headaches.
It took me more than a year to come up with a plan I liked that worked in the space I have available. I began benchwork construction almost a year ago and only recently actually laid some track. I do have to work with a limited budget, and I've not worked on the layout all that time. But when I'm not working on the layout itself, I have been researching materials, refining the plans (which have changed a little since I began construction), and stockpiling supplies.
In short, this hobby is not one for those short on patience.
grayfox1119 wrote:Gazoo, all of the advice you are getting omits the obvious....READ !!! READ all the excellent books that are available, many from Kalmbach. Go to their website and check them out. You can also get many good books from Amazon.com, many are used, so the prices are very good. As a first step, go to your LHS and look over the books that they have in the rack. You will find books on "Getting Started", Wiring, benchwork, track plans, Scenery, etc etc........too many to list here. But you will get a deluge of info, and from that starting point, you will be in a far better position to make your choices.
Some of us have said that, but perhaps it should be said some more. It really is the only right way to get started. It'll go along way towards getting rid of future frustrations too!
Hello Gaz,
Welcome to the forum. I had a look at your profile to see your name, but just Gazoo so I shortened that to Gaz. You must live in the UK? You are in the GMT +/-0 time zone I see.
If I had the great opportunity that you have now, I would very likely go for N scale. I have been in the hobby long enough to have accumulated too much HO so cannot change at my age. Wish I was just starting again.
The things that I am jealous of my colleaugues who run N about are:
On the other hand HO is easier to detail, in my opinion. I see some good N scale stuff about though. The selection of ready to run is better in HO, but N is improving.
The reason that I suggest you seriously think about N is that you have only 8 1/2 foot square to work in. Once you start drawing plans you will see that is not much in HO.
I think you know the answers to your first questions. You want the old days and you want passenger and freight. How best to do that? Think carefully about your scale is my recommendation.
How much do I know about the prototype? It all starts there, IMO.
What do I know about the hobby?
Do I want to read and learn? Plenty of material is out there about both the prototype and how to model it. Kalmbach publishes so darn many great books that even after 30 years in this hobby I still look forward to getting another, if for no reason other than inspiration ( I know it all already!!)
Plan on making mistakes. Your question implies that you want to cut to the front of the line and avoid all those mistakes that result from not getting the answers to the right questions. The real issue might be not knowing enough to ask the questions.that you want the answers to.
Read, learn, enjoy. Model railroading is fun!
Gazoo wrote: Quick response to Dave-the-train and some others in a similar vein as him: I didn't want to write an extensive dissertation as my first post, and in re-reading it appears that my tone came across differently than it was supposed to. So here are a couple quick clarifications while I'm soaking in all the (really good) suggestions: 1. My frustration is that this seems like an activity where the advantages to "beginning with the end in mind" seem to outweigh a few lost months, or a year, before the track is laid. So it's not that I'm saying the experts are dummies, I'm saying they are overlooking how stupid a newbie like me can be. A simple assumption they take for granted on how to wire something properly might be a realization I reach too late and have to materially alter my track plan or benchwork. 2. When I say "impressive", I mean impressive to the average person walking into my basement to see it, not to someone with 20 years of modeling experience. (Those people will be hard to impress!) To me that means attention to detail and realism of the scenery.
Quick response to Dave-the-train and some others in a similar vein as him:
I didn't want to write an extensive dissertation as my first post, and in re-reading it appears that my tone came across differently than it was supposed to. So here are a couple quick clarifications while I'm soaking in all the (really good) suggestions:
1. My frustration is that this seems like an activity where the advantages to "beginning with the end in mind" seem to outweigh a few lost months, or a year, before the track is laid. So it's not that I'm saying the experts are dummies, I'm saying they are overlooking how stupid a newbie like me can be. A simple assumption they take for granted on how to wire something properly might be a realization I reach too late and have to materially alter my track plan or benchwork.
2. When I say "impressive", I mean impressive to the average person walking into my basement to see it, not to someone with 20 years of modeling experience. (Those people will be hard to impress!) To me that means attention to detail and realism of the scenery.
Fair enough. Then the advice to do about 20 hours of serious reading stands, and I have always advocated that as a first step, as have several others. Also, I would, in hindsight, recommend that a person start modestly and try several different techniques, not just one type of benchwork, one type of scenery, one type of track system (operations or loop roundabout and variants), and so on. I have learned much over 1.4 layouts, but I would not have traded all my learning and mistakes for anything. They are now part of my hard knocks and experience.
Maybe a list of serious, get-me-running-trains-right-away-with-the-fewest-serious-newbie-boners, questions would be like this:
a. What is it about trains that appeals to you?
b. What about trains that appeals to you would you insist on having modeled on your layout?
c. How will you/do others manage to effect this in a trackplan that has legs; i.e., will keep it interesting for at least one year until I tear it down in disgust (yup, it sure does happen!)?
d. How much material and monetary resources will it take, and how much space will I need?
e. What would the list of steps be that will lead me, if followed, to a logical, methodical, and satisfactory completion of a useful and appealing layout?
and so on...
It seems everyone has to make their own journey, and stub their toes a couple of times for the compleat model railroading experience.
No problems I hope my first thoughts response didn't sound to tough. I've checked it through again though and I hope that it makes a bunch of useful points. It has certainly made me think of a few things.
Only thing I will add is just that you almost certainly can't have a clue where this hobby will take you or where you will end up. that is a great deal of the fun of it.
The important thing is to enjoy yourself
I'd have to go with the "sit back and soak it in" crowd on this one. But I know, you're anxious to get started on something.
Check out some of the articles here to get some good info;
http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=ss&id=16
http://www.nmra.org/
There's some good articles o the basics on those sights.
Don't worry so much about the 20 questions,.....they'll come! But firstyou need a bit of info so you can not only know the correct 20 questions to ask, but how those 20 questions relate to one another.
So, you say to yourself "I have the room, money, time and desire to build a railroad model".
Why? ....... Answer as completely as possible with special attention paid to enjoyment and satisfaction with regards to all aspects of development, construction and operations of your personal "world in a room".
Where? ....... Not physical location though that is a consideration. Reference your responses to the initial question and come to a conclusion of what geographical area best incorporates those aspects of life you want to include in your creation. The final determination might be decided by such aspects as favorite railroad, favored scenic aspects, real world business or location representations or any of the hundred things that will pass through your mind as you mull your options and desires.
When? ....... Little or nothing to do with that ticking clock in the other room. Your druthers are becoming less abstract and more stable. What time period offers the most comfortable setting for your choice of steam, diesel or the transition between? When were the businesses and housing styles you prefer popular, existing, surviving or recently born?
How? ....... Does everything you want to include interact with everything else? What feels comfortable next to what? How do the things you invision fit into the desired scenery and what scenery best suits the vision you have of the things you want to include? From here you will find yourself working out track plan, wiring diagram and stable benchwork issues. Trust me, the fun has just begun. :-)
Does size matter? ...... A question of scale. Again give consideration to comfort, enjoyment, satisfaction and as time passes, matters of eyesight and perspective. Some of the answers to this question can be answered according to kit availability in the various scales and by your desire to delve into scratch building those aspects of your dream that the manufacturers have yet to offer.
Who? ..... When you're trying to figure something out or searching for information you can drag out the books, magazines, search engines or find someone to ask. Even with the myriad of reasons why some folks dislike the "new" forum the archive of previous posts is still available and chock full of relevant and useful information. Ask the knowledgeable folks who visit here every day. Soon enough your question will be answered and the information will become part of the growing volume of answers the forum offers all veterans and new comers alike.
Why? ....... Sorry to be redundant but the final answer to this question is BECAUSE IT'S FUN!!!
Good luck in your travels and experiences.
dwRavenstar
Gazoo wrote: So I go to the local hobby shops. I ask the people behind the counter "what are the first 10 or 20 questions I need to ask myself before I start on this hobby?" I've ask this so many times, to so many experienced builders, that I'm starting to get the feeling that the experience people have TOO much experience. The answers I get usually start with: "Well, first you want to make sure you've got your benchwork solid. . . " What?! For the purposes of the conversation up to that point, we had not even talked about what guage I'm going to model! Let alone what era, how I want to operate it, do I want to scratch build or model build, how are my drafting skills (vs. computer programs). . . I feel like the sample questions I'm getting from these people can't possibly be the correct FIRST ones to ask.
So I go to the local hobby shops. I ask the people behind the counter "what are the first 10 or 20 questions I need to ask myself before I start on this hobby?" I've ask this so many times, to so many experienced builders, that I'm starting to get the feeling that the experience people have TOO much experience. The answers I get usually start with:
"Well, first you want to make sure you've got your benchwork solid. . . "
What?! For the purposes of the conversation up to that point, we had not even talked about what guage I'm going to model! Let alone what era, how I want to operate it, do I want to scratch build or model build, how are my drafting skills (vs. computer programs). . . I feel like the sample questions I'm getting from these people can't possibly be the correct FIRST ones to ask.
Have to say... I was unimpressed by your Q at first... and i've probably answered it with all the wrong answers above... but... if you came to my club and your expression showed the italicised part and suggested that you thought that I am a dummy I wouldn't bother to answer many, if any, of your questions. How do i know what knowledge you have so far aquired? Would you go into an auto workshop and ask the same thing? Do you go to book your foriegn holiday with the same approach?
"Hey! Don't be a dummy I've already been to Germany"! Do they know that?
But have a nice day anyway
Gazoo wrote: . If it's helpful, I'll add that I've got an 8.5' x 8.5' space to work in, decided on HO guage, likely the '50's era, combination passenger / freight trains, limited expansion possibilities for the layout, have enough money and patience to accomplish this goal over about 10 years (I'm in no hurry), have not bought a single tool but have several books, no electrical skills, and the last thing I want is for this thing to look anything short of impressive.
.
If it's helpful, I'll add that I've got an 8.5' x 8.5' space to work in, decided on HO guage, likely the '50's era, combination passenger / freight trains, limited expansion possibilities for the layout, have enough money and patience to accomplish this goal over about 10 years (I'm in no hurry), have not bought a single tool but have several books, no electrical skills, and the last thing I want is for this thing to look anything short of impressive.
You have already stepped beyond first Qs and introduced some parameters.
You will only need strong drafting skills if you are heading toward research and scratch building.
The space is fairly limited for H0 but you could look at a small branch station, a loco yard or... We need to know your interest... you may need to work out what it is... so you have questions about what you want to do... you will tend to find these from your reading... it's also safer because you can find what you want not get carried along by someone else's enthusiasm.
50s is good, late steam, established diesel in most of the US. the decline had not set in but things were fairly worn after WW2. Interesting period. Lots of old small lines still doing business. (Try the Ma and Pa for ideas).
When dealing with electrics segregate mains from 12voltDC religiously and ensure all circuits are protected. An overall "kill switch" is a very good idea... but don't include the access lighting in it. It's not a bad idea to have a back-up lighting circuit which comes on automatically if there is a power-out while you are modelling...saves stumbling on expnsive models/knocking themoff the layout... it happens. If in real doubt get a qualified electrician to put in your mains circuits and breakers. DC or DCC follow the rules to the letter.
Buy tools as you need them... look for quality and effectiveness not gadgets. Always use sharp blades... you will cut yourself less often and make better models.
What do you define as impressive? In nearly 50 years of toy trains I've seen people unimpressed by the model equivalent of a Da Vinci and ecstatic about a battered tin can.
You should ask yourself... what do you want to do with the layout... satisfy what you want or impress others? There is a huge difference. Neither is "right" as such. The former is much easier to live with...\and you will be much easier to live with. Bear in mind that some people will never be impressed with whatyou do and others will praise that battered tin can.
Have fun!
I'm not being rude...
Correct first questions... Okay, good question. Tell me...which came first? The chicken or the egg?
The armed forces trainers will tell you... "Don't pile in with questions:- LISTEN to what you are told, LEARN it, Absorb it, do it.
Having sold tickets to rail travellers for XXX years one thing was clear: some people will come up with a whole string of questions in their heads. There are several options:-
Getting involved, steadily, reading places like this forum, MR mag, old mags, books, looking at DVDs and videos will all help. What you find helpful will be different from what someone else finds helpful.
What we need to know about you (some of which you might not want to disclose)
Haven't even got onto trains yet.
AS a rule any store owner and club official will be assessing these things about you. this is not to "approve" you or not but to see how you fit in and how to work with you.
In fact probably the biggest question is:-
Will you take any notice at all of the answers given to your questions?
Some people just keep coming up with more questions... it's their slant on this or whatever hobby.
Let's look at 20 Qs... in no particular order.
Several of these are dependent on the above.
Have barely touched on models of track or trains again.
I notice that you say that you like to have all the answers before moving. You could be waiting a very long time. One of the attractions of MRR is that a lot of the time we are problem solving, researching and generally finding out "what if"? "how's that work"? "What's the real thing do"? "What went BANG"? and loads more.
Hope that all this helps. BUT you might know all this already and it doesn't help your itemised specific points... which actually make it a bit more difficult/over specific for general use to answer.
have a nice day
Oh yes... to the hobby
What skill will I need that is weakest? Followed by: what can I do to improve it? They would be among the earliest of questions. The others you mention, deciding what the railroad that you'd like to be so impressive as a first effort should represent, both in time-frame and in scope, what gauge, what trackplan of that gauge will fit my druthers and allow me the control and access that I'll need, what equipment will I need, what materials for all items that I will build with my own hands, etc., all rank right up there.
Are you looking for samples from everyone, or everyone's personal list?
Another question: Are there local model railroaders I can contact for assistance (and fellowship)?
I'd consider joining a local model RR club if one's available. You can learn all kinds of things. Subscribing to Model Railroader Magazine might be a good idea too.
Apologies in advance if this is the umpteenth time this has been covered.
I'm new to the hobby, and I'm the sort to buy the right tool for the job, plan everything ahead of time, and move only when convinced it's time.
So can someone (or everyone) tell me: what are the first 10-20 questions I need to answer for myself before I lay my first inch of track?