cudaken wrote: I finaly got my child like board running OK, not great but making me happy to a point. My biggest problem is the track is to wide at 43" and aginst the wall. I now know what I need to do and ready to do it, pull the POS board away from the wall so I can get better with the track laying. Track started out as a HO slot car track and was bulit strong but no real care use used as far as grade. It was also bulit at around 32" tall which was great as far as resloting slot car and running sMPH of 600 +. After all that is not ment to seem real. Covered 210 feet in 10.2's real seconds. Well not that I am going to mess up the track so I can work on the far side of the board (wall side) I have a few questions. 1 My goal is to have a 12" tall second or 3rd line that is in a moutain range or at least a very high hills. At 6'4" how high can I make it to detail the top of the moutains or hills from the wall side? Toward the center of the hills I should be able to do it from the none wall side. 2 I have read that the board should be chest height to make it look more real. I like to sit in my chair behinde the coumputer 85% of the time when running. When next to the track still in the a chair with bone spurs (God I am getting old) standing is a problem for more than 15 minutes. Just to give you a idea my chin is 46" from the floor as I miss spell this. But then go back to question 1. Plus, I sit 7' from the closes part of the track and 26' from the far end most of the time. 3 Being rather HUGE, not factoring in body deepth, how much room should I alot to work on the wall side of the track. 12", 18"? Chest and midde drift is APX 18". 4 After looking at many PIC of bench's in the works I like the Open-Grid benchwork. Now the the question. I do not want to stop running the board, I live for coming home at night and running the board. My bench work is based on 2X4's with half inch plywood and out door carpet (remember it started as a Slot car board). After the board is level can you folks think of any reason I cannot lay a Open-Grid over the section of board I want to be 12" tall? On this last part what I envision is, lower rails that are laided will be running throught tunnels that are about 3' each section and around 6 of them. Rasied section will cover the open section with trestle's. On the wall that I will move the board away from, have back drop that will reflect the moutain / hill theme. Board is U shapped is 19' x 43" X 13" X 8 foot. I still have room for more board as well. Cuda Ken, trains are runnig great again
I finaly got my child like board running OK, not great but making me happy to a point. My biggest problem is the track is to wide at 43" and aginst the wall. I now know what I need to do and ready to do it, pull the POS board away from the wall so I can get better with the track laying.
Track started out as a HO slot car track and was bulit strong but no real care use used as far as grade. It was also bulit at around 32" tall which was great as far as resloting slot car and running sMPH of 600 +. After all that is not ment to seem real. Covered 210 feet in 10.2's real seconds.
Well not that I am going to mess up the track so I can work on the far side of the board (wall side) I have a few questions.
1 My goal is to have a 12" tall second or 3rd line that is in a moutain range or at least a very high hills. At 6'4" how high can I make it to detail the top of the moutains or hills from the wall side? Toward the center of the hills I should be able to do it from the none wall side.
2 I have read that the board should be chest height to make it look more real. I like to sit in my chair behinde the coumputer 85% of the time when running. When next to the track still in the a chair with bone spurs (God I am getting old) standing is a problem for more than 15 minutes. Just to give you a idea my chin is 46" from the floor as I miss spell this. But then go back to question 1. Plus, I sit 7' from the closes part of the track and 26' from the far end most of the time.
3 Being rather HUGE, not factoring in body deepth, how much room should I alot to work on the wall side of the track. 12", 18"? Chest and midde drift is APX 18".
4 After looking at many PIC of bench's in the works I like the Open-Grid benchwork. Now the the question. I do not want to stop running the board, I live for coming home at night and running the board. My bench work is based on 2X4's with half inch plywood and out door carpet (remember it started as a Slot car board). After the board is level can you folks think of any reason I cannot lay a Open-Grid over the section of board I want to be 12" tall?
On this last part what I envision is, lower rails that are laided will be running throught tunnels that are about 3' each section and around 6 of them. Rasied section will cover the open section with trestle's.
On the wall that I will move the board away from, have back drop that will reflect the moutain / hill theme.
Board is U shapped is 19' x 43" X 13" X 8 foot. I still have room for more board as well.
Cuda Ken, trains are runnig great again
Ken #2 as far as height goes I have found out that taking a measurment of the center of my eyes (54.5") in my case and setting the Center of the rolling stock at that height was perfect for standing. Then with my age creeping up I measured the eye's Sitting on a bar stool that came out to (46.25") so that is what I set the base point of the Railroad (0,0) then went up and down for that point. I am very happy with the results.
#3 with my lack of being very thin, I was 40" off the access wall in the 1st design. now I am Flush on the walls with 30" max width and pop-ups in the loops. Gives you more track and the pop up makes a grat place for a removable town or one sided mountain.
#4 is the 5th amendment. I would not. As fast as you can build a "L" girder it is easier to build and move.
Are their any logical places you can cut the board to move it in sections to it's new home on the grid? That would be the quickest way to do it. If all you want to do is the mountain and such then you must move the table to get behind it.
The others guys are correct as far as what they are saying, I am just trying to give you an option.
Ken, I believe the NMRA guidelines suggest 3.5" clearance from the rail heads on the lower track to whatever is above them. Remember, you need room to build your bottom track from the "ground" up, complete with roadbed and ballasting, but you also need room over that track to carry whatever is supporting that higher track . If it is only a shallow bridge, then you will have more leeway with your grade above it. If it is a heavy bridge, you may need to move something one way or another until your locos and highest cars can pass underneath with about 3/4" clearance to spare...if you want to keep it close to scale. Trains entering under overpasses and into tunnels have more than a foot or two of clearance. I don't know what the minimums are for safety and other reasons, but it must be closer to 6-8 feet.
Imagine the place you are talking about on your plan. Imagine standing right on the lower tracks and looking up at the crossover. What type of crossover is it? Is is a simple bridge? How deep are the girders, and when in place, what will your higher tracks' grade have to be to keep the clearance at 3.5" from the railheads below, where you are standing, so that your trains can look like they are in a scale-engineered crossover? If the lower track enters a tunnel, you can fudge it a bit with plaster and shrubs, but a bridge is a bridge, and must fit.
You have much of this figured out already, it seems, as you knew to measure the distance from the grade ends to get the rise and fall in inches. Now, you need to work it out so that the rails, themselves, are far enough apart in vertical distance that you can scenic in the actual crossover to make it look engineered for safety, but still allow you to run your locos on the lower track into that crossover.
I asked Ken at K-10 Trains today if I could use is wood working tools, I was told NO!
But, I was told that he would be happy to do the cutting and bulid the NEW BENCH for me.
Just need to haul the wood over and be there when he is making the cuts, and so I can give him a idea of what I am trying to do! Seem I have more Resources than I knew. To bad there iss not a smiley face doing the happy dances!
Cuda Ken, happy again.
I hate Rust
Me, complex? Other friends all so find my wide range of tast odd. Nothing like a car guy coming over and seeing the look on there faces when they hear me blasting Eine Kleine Nachtmuisk by Mozart, then follow it up with some Billiy Idol White Wedding! Guess my Dad starterd me on the classisc stuff and Audiophile gear when I was around 9. Also the car stuff when he bought my 68 Road Runner when I was 12.
As far as why 12", you can thank all the PIC I have looked at in the MRR rags for that, along with PIC of Art Hill layout and others that have great modeling skills.
I know I did mark down the specks on the PIC but after the rails make the East turn to where the tunnel would be to go under the north bond I should have 288" of rail to make a 5" drop. If I am doing the math right that is a 1.7 grade. Going back up I will have around 222" for a 2.2 gade, a little steep but might work. Another 20" might not be a bad idea so it would be a 2.06 grade.
Do I need 5" to clear a tunnel? My tallest car is only 2.25" and Engine is a little short of 2.5" I was thinking around 3.5 which would make the grade way easyer. Have yet to messuer that factory tunnel openings are in height. I was hopping to make my from match sticks.
Well, time to start moving stuff and hope the board still works after the move.
Around 125 hours and still ticking, Cuda Ken
Ken, you make me laugh. You are a complex fellow; cars and classical! Bach is good anytime. Tell the missus you really miss the opera stuff, but will settle for Bach. That should help to put a sock in it.
You may have to question your fixation on the 12". So, I'll ask you straight out, why 12"? Could 8 do, maybe 9.5"? The reason I ask is that the lower you climb to, the less space you need for the climb...I'm sure you realize that. Similarly, the less space you need for the descent. The problem comes when one crosses over the other. Will you have the 3.5" clearance from the tops of the rails on the bottom track to the next highest immovable surface or object....like a bridge girder or something? If you climb from point X, and descend to point X with even distances, you end up with a crossing, not an overpass. By crossing, I mean the rails have to meet at the same level and cross each other at an intersection.
If you want the overpass, then you will have to use different grades up and down, or if you want to keep grades in a narrow (sensible) range, you must make one of the legs longer so that the overpass can be achieved by making the longer leg rise or descend more than the other to get the clearance.
So, in your diagram, at the upper right, where the tracks appear to cross, the outer track is where I think the apex of the climb should be, right after that corner where it turns "south". From there, or within a couple of feetish, you must commence the descent so that as the track makes the wide curve from right to left, and returns toward the "north', it will descend enough to give you the nearly 5" you'll need to squeeze your trains under a bridge or into a tunnel, and still have room for the roadbed and everything.
I used casters on my last layout thinking that I could swing it out of the way of the carpet installer when the time came. No dice. So, I had to bust it up.
Anyway, Home Depot has casters, but I recall seeing none that were adjustable for height. You may need to use the casters to move it around, but also mount threaded levelers for when you want it still and sturdy. To move it, back the leveler pads back in, and the weight will come onto the casters.
I am very happy to read that you are finally enjoying the fruits of your learning. I know it was hard a while back, but you got over the hump, and are now enjoying some fun.
-Crandell
Selector, I have been drawing a few ideas for the new board at work. With moving the board not sure I have the room for the 32" turns I am wanting, but we will see. I have been kicking around the idea of casters on the legs for some time, I think that is the way to go.
What I have invesion for the upper level is what I think is called a Dog Bone track? But in U shape track turns back toward the main line and follows it self. Say North bound goes 15 foot, then heads East for 10 foot, makes a 320 heading West so it heading in to the other rail but going down a 2% grade. Dropps 3.5" and passes under the North bound rail and then make a South turn, at this point it will be hidden from view. Next is makes another East turn and start up a grade so it will be level with the North bond track.
Heck here is a ruff and not done drawing, had a guest so it was not finshed.
Most folks should be abel to fill in the black spot and where I was going.
As far as the wye, I have been thinking along the line as well. With the sizes of the board a 2% grade up 12" should not be a problem, but back down, that will eat up some room.
Will check out what Home Depote has to offer as far as casters that can be adjustied.
Right now I am in total Bliss, POS board is running like a champ and heading to 100 hours of no problems plus as much as my wife hates it I have Brandenburgisches Konzert (Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 F-majior) cranked at 98 dB. (theme from Master Pices Theather). There is a reason I have a 20 K Mono Blocked 600 watts a side stereo sitting in the garage. If it is not YUCK Diso, she does not like it, play some long hair classical she is looking for a lawyer. Jazz and Rock, she only says "turn it down".
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Okay, Ken, if you are in the circumstances you describe, then I would still consider a new start, but do it on the benchwork you have. The trick will be in making something workable with the footprint currently before you. If you want the grand vistas, the slopes and bridges, then maybe you will have to build up several layers of foam for that. It would be what I would do in your shoes; beg, borrow, or steal several sheets of foam (looks like about 10, or so) and start carving and stacking layers that will become your hills. Use a wire brush to carve them to a natural shape all over, and finish with a sanding block, about 60 grit. You can build bridges out of strip wood if your budget limits you to that. Bridge kits are no so expensive, but they do look great with some judicious weathering. The trick with bridges is making them look like they were built and installed, in place, by engineers. Merely laying them over a "river" is not going to withstand critical eyes...yours, later.
Up front, though, for the next week or so, you should be getting out pencil and graph paper, and crawing your track plan. Don't forget to keep it realistic AND safe for your trains. Don't forget ease of access to keep it all pleasurable. Don't forget that your trains can't lift themselves to higher levels, and that they can only get there by using reasonable grades. Grades eat up track and space.
Also, very important, design in a way to get trains to run the other way on your loops. Design in a turning wye or a turntable, or a reversing loop. That will even the wear on your locomotive drives and on their wheel treads and flanges.
Your best ally right now is your urge to get this done. It is also potentially your enemy because, in your haste to get underway, you will overlook something that you will regret bitterly later on.
Finally, the suggestion to keep a corner with runnable trains on it is very wise. There will be times when that is all you want to do. I am at the stage where I have splines with track, but no scenery. I have a Hudson and three cars on the layout to run when I get bummed or want nothing else to do. I can't run the entire layout because the track is taped over to protect it from the plaster I am sssllllloooooowwwwwlyy getting in place. But, I can still power up and safely run that J1d back and forth.
Hang tough.
Using the " Task at hand, determine the Resources necessary, consider Alternatives, Write down a plan, make your Decisions and Evaluate your results. T-R-A-W-D-E". I am sort of up the creek.
Resources, is the main thing I am lacking. Resources is money, not buch as you know. Resources is wood working tools, I have none then back to money. Resources is spaces to work in, with out pulling a part all of the bench work not a lot. Resources is time, hum not sure what I am more sort of, money or time. Leave for work by 9:00 AM and get home at 9:45 PM. Off on Tuesdays and Wendnesdays and then there is the honey do's.
But other Resources may be K-10 trains. I know Ken has some wood working tools, may be if he takes pitty on me again he will let me cut the frame work there.
Alternatives, make do with what I have, step 1 is getting the board away from the wall! Then make the rail work the best I can and you cannot while laying on the bech when you are my sizes. Make it level, that is a must. Beef up what I have, it looks a little worst than what it is, but not much. Lot of the wires that are hanging are the wires for the power taps from the Slot car track.
Have no idea what a Class 1 railroad is?
Far as what I like at this point, I like to watch the train run period! I like the idea of running with hills in the back ground, idea of a tunnels, sections where I cannot see train, crossing a river or lake. Passing a small town but not stopping just in the back ground. I have yet to get into the backing up, dumping a car on a spur, then picking up a car at another spur. One time I got to run at K-10 and Ken gave me a list of cars he would like me to move, well it was time to go.
Darrel, I am sure you have driven by the bluffs on 270 heading to St Louis toward South County by Columbia IL, that is the look I am looking for. Clear off some of the trees off the top, throw in a tunnel or two and I be a happy man.
Backing up again and rethinking Ken
PS, 80 hours with no majior problems, they will start again when I move the board but I will be able to fix them this time around.
Hi, Ken.
I'm glad your layout is working better for you. It's taken you a little while to get this far. Not the same as slot cars, eh?
On to some advice. What the others have said about adding to your layout is the truth. It took a lot of hard work for you to get where you are now and you know the problems you had getting there! Adding on to what you already have may be more difficult and may cause you more trouble trying to work around the existing flaws in your layout. Your layout started out life as a slot car track. There is a very good reason why autos don't run on railroad tracks and trains don't run on streets. They are incompatible! For example, when you built your slot car track, your floor wasn't level. With the slot cars, it didn't matter that the setup wasn't level. The slot cars have enough power to go up and down hills with ease. They aren't dragging a bunch of freight cars behind them! Building a railroad where the cars used to run was faster and less expensive than starting out new, but, as you have already learned, not the best base to build on.
My advice (and it's worth everything your paid for it!! LOL), is to go back to square one. ALL THE WAY back to square one! Which means, decide WHAT you want your railroad to do! What would you like to have for a layout? Use the TRAWDE system. What's the TRAWDE system? It's simple: you consider the Task at hand, determine the Resources necessary, consider Alternatives, Write down a plan, make your Decisions and Evaluate your results. T-R-A-W-D-E. You can use this system for every decision you have to make. It helps to organize your thinking and helps you concentrate and stay focused on your overall plan.
Your first Task should be to determine what the purpose of your railroad is and in what time frame it will operate. You will really have to think a lot about what you want your railroad to do. It can be a logging railroad, a shortline, a Class 1 linehaul railroad, an industrial switching layout or any of a number of choices. You will want to consider your resources. If all of you equipment is logging equipment, you probably won't want to consider a Class 1 railroad for your layout. If you have longhaul road diesels, logging would require a major change of equipment. There are alternatives to every style of layout. Even a shortline railroad could have large diesels, especially if it's a major connecting line for one or more Class 1 railroads. When you've gotten this far in your thinking, it's time to write everything down for future reference. When you have everything written down, you can finally make a decision as to what type of railroad you want to model. Finally, evaluate your decision. Is it right for what you want? Will it be considerably more expensive than you had planned? Will it satisfy your short-term and long-term needs? Only you can make those choices. When it comes time to build your layout, use the same system.
One other piece of advice: layout height is a very personal choice. What works for you may not work for someone else. The usual suggestion is to build your layout at chest height. If you normally operate your layout while sitting down, your chest height is considerably LOWER than if you were standing! If you plan on operating from a chair, build the layout so you are comfortable operating from your chair, not while standing up.
So far, everyone seems to agree that starting over may be your best solution. As hard as that may be to do, they are probably right. You may not have to rip everything up at once. Go through the planning first and then decide if you want or need to start over. Then, if you decide to start over, you will know WHERE to begin. You may be able to leave much of your existing layout in place to run on while you are working on a new layout.
As I have said before, feel free to call or write to me if you want to chat about what you are doing.
Darrell, quiet...for now
Very well stated, Selector. What Ken is attempting is likely a recipe for frustration, at best. It is a hard thing to face, but we all have to sooner or later: time to start over.
Ken, methinks you'll feel so much better about your layout and this hobby if you get rid of the benchwork, get a book containing 4x8 layout track plans, build new benchwork that you will be satisfied with years from now, select a track plan that you like and have good chance of building successfully, and start at the beginning. So much has been published on these topics that for a newcomer to do otherwise is like re-inventing the wheel as an oval...
Read, learn, and enjoy. Model railroading is fun!
Ken, my first suggestion is unrelated to your question, unless you can accept that it is related...I think very highly related. Think about where you are going. Adding on to something barely acceptable and barely functioning is not going to be your ticket to railroading happiness. You'll probably, can't say for sure, but probably not be content with what you get. I think you need to develop a whole nuther trackplan, and then start from scratch. You have learned much in the past couple of months, so capitalize on those new abilities. Give yourself some slack by going at it from a whole new direction.
That said, you'll need about 33" behind your layout to work without losing your temper and your valuable scenery and wiring. If you want freedom of movement, especially if you intend to operate from back there, add another 8" or so.
Your mountains will not be to scale, no matter what you do, unless you don't mind giving up a lot of trackage. If you want trains to run 12' higher in some places, you will have to build a grade that your trains can manage, and that will typically cost you about 40' in grades for the height you mention. You have to fit that in, and that is why I say begin at square "one". New plan.
The wider and higher your sections of layout, the more migraines, not just headaches, you will have building them to look decent, and then in their subsequent maintenance. A big fella like you had better be well anchored reaching far up and over your train stuff.
Where your ribs meet at the front-centre of your chest, that hard button at the bottom, that is where a layout's main surface and tracks should be. From there, do what seems best....heeding my earlier advice.
You can use open grid for most anything and anywhere, but you'll have to think it out. What access will you need, and how will you frame that? On what will your tracks rest? Spline roadbed, plywood cookie-cutter, foam? How will you form the base for the scenery? Plaster hardshell over forms, more foam, cardboard or chicken wire?
Don't forget, too, the most important question in designing a model railroad that will keep you interested for a time: what the heck is the president of the company doing by letting his trains run by these places, anyway? What is their purpose? Whom do they serve that give them revenue? In other words, have a purpose for your entire trackplan. Will you have a yard to classify trains when you feel like making them up? Do you want a mix of facing point and trailing point spurs for your industries, as John Armstrong suggested? Would you like trains to hold up on sidings when they meet? Where will you put double track that serves that purpose?
And on, and on...
Is that helping you to get some ideas? I hope that, at leat, I have helped you to generate a list of needs or questions for yourself.