Gate 5
Bob H:
Thanks. This is good info. I plan to eventually replace some of the sectional track with flex-track, and I'm prepared to add a lot more feeders if necessary.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
jwils1 wrote: But here are my questions: Is there a difference in the number of recommended track feeders for DC compared to DCC? Which are you running? Technically, what happens over a period of time that causes a reduction in perfomance when too few feeders are used?
But here are my questions: Is there a difference in the number of recommended track feeders for DC compared to DCC? Which are you running? Technically, what happens over a period of time that causes a reduction in perfomance when too few feeders are used?
Good DC and DCC wiring practices are really the same, including turnouts. The difference is what happens when wiring is not up to the load. With DC, when wiring is insufficient, you get voltage drops and in worst case, some dead spots. At the dead spots, or places with too much voltage drop, the train simply stops or stalls. Current loads are generally lower with DC because of less consisting, and the home-run wiring required for block control, so the voltage drop is actually less.
With DCC, insufficient wiring can cause both voltage drops and control signal degradation/loss. Voltage drops are greater with DCC because the power bus carries the current load for the entire power district, not just one train. Once a certain point of signal degradation is reached, the controller can no longer communicate with the decoder. The margin for resistance in the electrical path from controller through the wiring, rails, wheels, etc., is just less than with DC.
Assuming secure electrical joints in the wiring - one of the issues in this thread - the most common places for degradation in the electrical path are:
- dirt in the wheel to track contact. Nearly everyone needs to clean their track and/or wheels periodically in some way. I'm not going to get into the track cleaning method arguments here! Just note that the nickel silver (or brass) oxidation of rail and wheels of the next point affects this contact, too. Also be aware that running trains frequently, especially heavier models with metal wheels would/will wear the oxide away.
- rail joiners loosening or oxidizing at their points of electrical contact. This used to be a real bear with brass rail and rail joiners. Brass oxide (tarnish) is a non-conductor, and brass is slightly softer than nickel silver. Over time, a brass rail joiner would loosen just enough so that the joiner edges would no longer pierce the oxide that occurred on the rail webs. The rail joiner would no longer conduct, and unless the next piece of track had a feeder, you would have a dead spot. Track cleaning and running the trains would not stop the oxide on the rail web or base, and actually helped the rail joiner soften its grip.
Nickel silver oxidizes as well, but the oxide forms much slower and the oxide is somewhat conductive. Therefore the oxide buildup and rail joiner loosening seldom creates an open circuit, but does increase the resistance in the electrical path.
- the third deterioration over time is wire-to-wire connections. Corrosion and vibration are the usual culprits here. For this reason, marine and aviation wiring have the most frequent problems, and why there have been countless attempts to develop wire connection schemes that are inexpensive (both in labor and materials), and resist long term deterioration. In model railroading, vibration is seldom an issue, so soldered, mechanically-solid joints using solid wire are the most reliable. They are also the most labor intensive. Airplanes, boats, cars often have to use stranded wire for it's flexibility and vibration resistance but it is far more susceptible to corrosion, especially anywhere the insulation is pierced or removed. In a corrosive and/or wet atomosphere, contact of dissimilar metals almost guarantees corrosion if exposed to the atmosphere. Hence, the long term problems with unsealed IDC's, depending on the environment your layout is in. There are more expensive IDCs that seal after installation, and that is the point of the Posi-Taps. To prevent corrosion, when I solder a joint on a car or boat, I seal the joint with electrical tape or shrink tubing.
I presently have approx. 130 lin. ft. of HO DCC track with just three sets of track feeders. I've been running it about 6 to 8 months. Everything runs smooth and slow. And, I'm using 9" long sections of Atlas snap track. Am I going to have problems down the road?
The rail joiners are going to be your key issue over the long term. How long? Depends on what the humidity and salt loading in your air is, how securely your track is mounted, whether you take it apart to make changes, how often you run your trains, etc. Since my previous layouts (except my 1st which was brass sectional track) used handlaid track, I just skipped the rail joiners completely, which mandated a feeder for every piece of rail. I used 26 gauge magnet wire soldered to the bottom of the rails.
An alternative to feeders that some use is to install wire jumpers around the rail joints.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred Wright
jwils1
I am running DCC! But I did this way back when our club was running straight DC.
We found after years that the Atlas turnouts were having dead sections and this was between the rail insulator and the turnout frog (DC blocks).
We would have to solder a jumper wire around the turnout to get the short rails (between the frog and the end of the switch) to get them to work again.
So I decided when I built my new layout I would just put drop wires on each end of the turnout to eliminate this problem before it ever started.
As for the sectional track it will work for a while but if the room varies in temperature and humidity it may cause problems down the road.
My thoughts is that you can never have too many drop wires. What happens is that as you make changes to the track plan (and we all do) some of the drop wires may get broken off or never get put back on. Now youhave the potential for poor performance.
N/S rails is not the best conductor of electricity. The resistance is the problem with DCC as the noise (resistance) will cause the loss of signal and then you lose control of the engine.
BOB H – Clarion, PA
Hal;
Bob Whitten has it right, It's an old trick I learned many, many, years ago, and IS the way the pro's do it. If the handle end of you Dykes or pliers are too large for the wire you are stripping, you can use the point end of needle nose with the same result, (handle end provides more leverage and is easier though) I use Splicer's scissors for stripping, but I have years of practice using them. (Retired telephone man)
Good Luck
John
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
cmrproducts wrote: When you are installing the number of drop wires that I am (over 1600 – due to the fact of having over 2800 feet of track) you would go broke using Posi-Taps, Scotchlocks or what ever! And I have never found any that liked the big mismatch of wire sizes #12 stranded and #26 for the track drops. And YES I put track drops on every piece of flex track and drops on all three ends of the turnouts. That is how you get over 1500 drops.
When you are installing the number of drop wires that I am (over 1600 – due to the fact of having over 2800 feet of track) you would go broke using Posi-Taps, Scotchlocks or what ever!
And I have never found any that liked the big mismatch of wire sizes #12 stranded and #26 for the track drops. And YES I put track drops on every piece of flex track and drops on all three ends of the turnouts. That is how you get over 1500 drops.
My first thought was......wow, 1500 drops is really overkill! But, for your situation it very well may be the right thing to do. But here are my questions: Is there a difference in the number of recommended track feeders for DC compared to DCC? Which are you running? Technically, what happens over a period of time that causes a reduction in perfomance when too few feeders are used?
And I usually connect more than one track drop wire together at a time when I strip the buss wire, so that cuts down on the amount of insulation stripping. Most layout owners want to only put in enough drops to just get by due to the fact they dislike soldering but fail to remember that the proper wiring is what makes the trains run smoothly (and I mean one of those 1 hour per tie crawling units) The layout may run great now but what about 3 years from now, 5 years 10 years? You got tired of it only because the trains were running so bad and you figured it needed to be rebuilt.
With a 2200 sq ft basement to fill up it is going to take me 20 years to get the layout detailed properly so I NEED the trains to run smoothly for 20 years!
If you are only going to have the layout up for a year or 2 then you don’t have to even use Posi-Locks or Scotchlocks – just use good old WIRE NUTS. If they work OK for house wiring why not for low voltage???? And they are a lot cheaper and work better than the IDCs!
And I keep hearing the old excuse for not soldering is, “I don’t know how to do it very well.” I can teach anyone, that knows which end of a hot soldering iron to hold, how to solder in less than 5 minutes. The biggest problem I have found is that most do not have the right type of solder! Using electronic circuit board solder is the easiest way to solder wires. It was designed to do this and only this. It has the right type of resin flux already in it so you don’t have to use any other.
And as for the wire strippers that have the various size holes for striping the insulation, I used to use that type all the time. But the biggest problem I found was that when you were working under the layout you had to be really careful to get the proper hole selected before you tried to strip the wire. And this was not so easy under the layout usually with less than perfect lighting conditions. Then you end up nicking the wire and maybe causing a potential place for the wire to eventually break due to the nick in the wire from the wire stripper.
So if you are thinking about purchasing a new wire stripper the type that is self adjusting and just grips the insulation and pulls it apart is the easiest one to use as you don’t have to worry that you are getting the proper hole size for the wire, just place it over the wire and squeeze the handles and the insulation just pulls back! I have piles of the old type of wire strippers in the tool box that never get used any more!
Yikes...eating copper...mmmmm.. Anyways, I recommend tap ins... SOOO much easier and pretty cheap, really. They rock and you can reuse them (if you are careful). Look into them, m8. You can even find them at Lowe's or Home Depot nowadays. Ciao.
Brian
santafefan wrote:My Teeth, the Dentist loves me, been using my teeth as wire strippers for over 40 years, so long as you keep them clean they do a great job.
I'll drink to that. Teeth provide an opportunity for adjustable cutting depths based upon actual feel, not like what's felt through wire stripper handles covered with rubber, etc.
Plus with Teeth, they're always there for immediate use...like opening an Alka-Seltzer package in a restaurant or even trimming a sharp fingernail when out in the desert.
And you certainly can't eat Prime Rib or pretzels with wire strippers :-)
Here is another thread that might help (or add confusion)??
RE: DCC Wiring
MIKE0659 wrote: I haven't been on this forum too long, but try a search for any threads concerning those connectors or start a new one to see what other people have expereinced with them.
I haven't been on this forum too long, but try a search for any threads concerning those connectors or start a new one to see what other people have expereinced with them.
Here is one older thread: RE: Wiring DCC-track power to main buss
You can find others if you search for "suitcase connectors"
I'm with Bob H. on this one. No matter how you strip that wire, soldering is the only way to go for a positive connection. We have soldered every wire and joint on our railroad and over a 15 year period have had absolutely no trouble related to poor connections in the wire or rail.
Yes the Scotch (And other brands) connectors work, but you have to consider the problem with dissimilar metals causing corrosion, specially if you have a damp basement/garage. Many people have used them with no problems, but enough have had problems to make me not want to take that chance since it will be a royal pain to go back and re-do all those connections later.
cmrproducts wrote: So how much are these Wal-Mart specials? BOB H - Clarion, PA
So how much are these Wal-Mart specials?
BOB H - Clarion, PA
No, it's a device that that has screw-in connectors that piece the wire's insulation. I got mine in the auto department at Wal-Mart. Here is their website:
www.posi-products.com
They make a wire stripper (available at Home Depot - Lowes) that grips the wire insulation and just pulls it apart. I have found this type to work on most sizes of wire from the phone wire up to #8.
I just use this stripper to pull the insulation apart at the point on the buss wire that I want to solder the drops and wrap the drop wire around the buss and then solder it. The heat from the soldering makes the insulation on the buss wires push back together and basically insulates the solder joint. I off-set the drop wires on the buss wires so I do not have to ever wrap tape to insulate the joint.
A Much faster method than cutting with an x-acto knife and much less chance of getting cut. Been there.
As for using methods which are not soldered when the air line industry strats to use them then I MIGHT think about using them (NOT)
Solder never fails! - Unless YOU don't know how to solder!
jwils1 wrote: Use Posi-Taps. No stripping, no soldering, quick and easy. Jerry
Use Posi-Taps. No stripping, no soldering, quick and easy.
Jerry,
What's a Posi-Tap? Is that a "suitcase" connector?
rrinker wrote: You have the wrong tool. Go to Home Depot and get the blue-handled Ideal wire stripper. It strips in the middle of the wire or at the ends, doesn't matter. There are several different size holes in it for different wire sizes, just clamp over the bus wire, squeeze genetly, and it will peel back a section of the insulation without nicking the wire underneath. --Randy
YES, YES, YES!!! Do not waste your time and money this is the answer. Works on #10 up to #22, does not knick the wire and leaves a perfect strip to solder to. One squeeze is one strip.
I use #12 solid wire, small wire cutters and an exacto.
Be safe.
Tom
We just used the Xacto knife. Run it around the wire at the two ends of the area you want to expose, then slice the insulation lengthwise and pull it off. You can actuallt put the knife against the wire, with your thumb on the other side and roll the wire with your other hand to cut around it.
The danger with using wire cutters with stranded bus wire is that you take the chance of cutting some of the strands which effectivley cuts down the size of your bus wire and its current carrying capacity.
Insert the part from the laywers about Xacto knives being sharp and that you should be careful, blah, blah. You get the idea.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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