You Asked For It! The ULTIMATE Redesign!!

[jecorbett]

You started with a good plan and it is getting better with every tweak. I'm sure that once you begin building it, other ideas will occur to you to make it even better. Adding the lower staging yards should make it outstanding operationally.

[Anonymous]

I started new thread bfore I realized how to implant graphic in reply. Here is redesign#4 for those who'd like to see it:

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Surfstud31

CN - I see your points about the prototype Putnam - I agree that the track arrangement seems odd but I didn't want just a point-to-point RR. I needed a continuous loop for my kids to run the trains and I have beaten my brain trying to figure out how to try and represent it as the one-track mainline it was and yet still have stations to operate commuter trains. You are right, the purpose of Yorktown Heights (which IS out of order) was to have an extra passenger station and because it's the station where I live. I am trying to figure out a way to perhaps crossover from Mahopac to Yorktown and back to Eastview - but don't hold your breath (easier said than done and may look worse).

OK, Surf, there's lots you can do to make the layout easier and more prototypical. First off, I can understand the need to the continuous running loop for the kids, so I'll go from here.

Look at freight movements first. Since you're modeling 1951, ice service has long since ended. Milk was processed by a multitude of local dairies (mostly Borden's) and shipped to NYC. I'm doubtful of southbound grain movements by that date as well. The old "Carpet Shop" in Yonkers would have gotten, in-bound, tankers of dye and other chemicals, boxcars of jute, cord, machinery and similar items, plus probably hoppers of coal. Out-bound would, I expect, have been mainly boxcars of finished product and hoppers or gons of ash...most likely all NYC bound. Incidentally, the Carpet Shop was a huge structure and needs something decidedly bigger than you suggest. Re Beer Bros. in Yonkers, 11-14 hoppers of coal per day sounds excessive...but I could be wrong.

Anyway, to make the layout more prototypical, I would move the Bronx from it's present location to a narrow visible staging yard on a shelf along the wall to the left of the Yonkers loop. I would also suggest condensing/reducing the Brewster freight yard, move it toward the left a little more, and eliminate the two ends of the passing siding coming off the yard as probably unecessary. Likewise, reduce the number of tracks in the roundhouse area. It's way more than the traffic would demand. Condense Mahopac to just the station, dairy, and stockyard, all on the aisle side of the tracks...also shift them all slightly toward the left. The Brewster yard could also be done as a trapezoid, with the southbound tracks exiting from the aisle side rather than the wall side.

Tightly parallel your tracks on the right side of the layout, dropping the tunnel in the upper right corner and placing Yorktown there in the turn on the outside of the curve. Stop there mainly when southbound (alternately missing East View when southbound). Expand the Croton Reservoir, with that great old bridge, so it reaches to the layout's edge.

Just some food for thought anyway.

CNJ774

[Anonymous]

CN - I see your points about the prototype Putnam - I agree that the track arrangement seems odd but I didn't want just a point-to-point RR. I needed a continuous loop for my kids to run the trains and I have beaten my brain trying to figure out how to try and represent it as the one-track mainline it was and yet still have stations to operate commuter trains. You are right, the purpose of Yorktown Heights (which IS out of order) was to have an extra passenger station and because it's the station where I live. I am trying to figure out a way to perhaps crossover from Mahopac to Yorktown and back to Eastview - but don't hold your breath (easier said than done and may look worse).

Here was my ops thinking: The real Put took coal from Brewster yard (brought by New Haven trains from Maybrook Line - Poughkeepsie railraid bridge) to Beer Bros. Coal in Yonkers (my stats show 11-14 cars a day). There was also Alexander Smith Carpet in Yonkers (represented by Lakeside Shipping) which was on the Nepperhan Industrial Spur (about a mile long - represented by spur in Yonkers). I do not know what loads they took but I assume chemicals from Brewster or NYC for carpet making and freight cars to bring out finished carpet). The Put also had milk operations although I do not know exactly how it worked. I know there was a Borden Milk Condensery and of course the Dellwood Dairy was in Yonkers (although I don't think they had rail service). I may switch these industries location. I do not know about grain on the Put. I do know however, that the Brewster area is a staple for grain and if I am not mistaken, there is or was an elevator in Brewster. So I thought it would be fun to include the grain elevator to take grain to Flour Mill and Brewery in Yonkers. I do know that the Put also carried ice but again I do now know the particulars and thought ice might be boring to model.

The Put's bread and butter, however, was commuter service - but even that was not big volume. I believe the Put carried about 2600 passenger a day prior to WWII and only around 600 a day after WWII. In fact, it is for this reason that the Put ceased passenger ops in 1958. It is partly for this reason I chose the Put. I am a lone operator at this point and did not want an overly complicated layout since I will most likely be running it alone. However, I suppose multi-operator sessions could be in the future and wanted to be prepared for it since I have no experience at this except for one small layout built 12 years ago.

I am rethinking and revamping my plan as we speak. I have an adjacent room to the bottom of the layout (Bronx) where I may be able to put a rather large staging yard to represent trains to and from New York City (specifically some freight from the Put ended up on the West Side Freight Line in Manhattan - particularly odd-sized loads).

I really appreciate everyone's help and comments. I will post the next re-design ASAP.

[pcarrell]

See now, I take a day or two off and now all the good suggestions have been taken! I see how you all are![;)]

Seriously, some good comments have been made. You'd do well to take heed to them.

[ericboone]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse
Your layout is is set up so that you could run in either direction, but you ability to switch is not. Right now you can switch everything if you always run counter-clock-wise, but to get into the Yonkers you have to take your engine into the Bronx. Then you can switch everything in. What I am saying is that you need runarounds at your switching points.

This is actually not necessary. Many railroads ran 'turns". The local would switch the trailing point sidings on the way out, skipping the facing point sidings. Then, someplace down the line, the train would turn around and get the sidings it skipped on the way back. The section of railroad I will be modeling did this as they actually took out the run-around tracks on the mainline, apparently when installing CTC, to cut down on cost.

[fwright]

I think you will enjoy it. I wouldn't bother with the back side connection to the turntable either, but it's your layout. I think your passing sidings are a good trade-off between length, location, position, and number. Thes spurs are a good mix and face both directions. You may think of other changes as you actually start to build and operate - but that's normal. Very few layouts are built exactly as planned. I do think you now have a good enough plan to build on. And by incorporating the suggestions that made sense into your own plan, you now have a much better sense of the planning factors and how they inter-relate. Well done! Go forth and build the mighty Put Division of the New York Central!

yours in cheerleading
Fred W

[BigRusty]

Surfstud, I agree with CNJ as to trying to be as true to prototype as possible, but in the case of my New Haven Shoreline I want to include the famous Rocky Neck Beach scene but I am only modeling as far as Old Saybrook since I can't solve the Connecticut River bridge problem. So, a little fudging when necessary is OK in my opinion.

That is why I recommed that any one starting the planning of a new layout first draw a schematic track plan showing all of the track features you want and then wrapping that plan around the space available on the bench work.

You can include the real staging yards that CNG mentions at each end if you add a nolix to a lower level branching off of the loop at the left end and going down all the way around to under the penninsula where the east staging yard would be. Also the other end can go around to under the left large area where the west staging yard would be. I have used this device for many years and for a busy railroad it offers the opportunity to run a lot more trains by parking train A and bringing out train B when needed. Since the Put (I was born in Westchester County by the way) was primarily a commuter line you can the fire one after the other out of staging like they did, instead of just the one if you can invest in a fleet of MU cars.

With a little more thinking out of the box you are well on the way to a nice operating model railroad. The key word is operating.

[jecorbett]

Surfstud, I was the one who asked about the TT. You should have no problem fitting the larger TT in because the center is not going to change. Is that a double Walther's roundhouse you are planning. If so, the front edge is probably closer to the TT than it needs to be. I suspect your drawing may be out of scale. It really doesn't matter how big or small the TT is, the roundhouse will be in the same spot since it is positioned in relation to the TT center. If memory serves correctly, the back walls of the roundhouse are going to be 27 inches plus a few fractions from the TT center. It might require a sharper bend for the tracks that aren't leading from the roundhouse.

That looks like a Walther's machine shop and if you are using the Walther's roundhouse as well, you have the option of building the machine shop adjoining the roundhouse or as a stand alone structure. If you do want to build it adjoinging the roundhouse, you will either have to move it to the other side of the roundhouse, or flip it end for end. The machine shop has a doorway on both ends so you can point it either way.

You might also want to flip the coaling tower and water tank. That way you could have the track leading to the coaling dock coming from the yard rather than the TT, which would be more prototypical. If you are planning on using the Walther's steel water tank, it comes with two stand alone waterspouts rather than having a spout connected directly to the water tank. This gives you more flexibility in the placement of the tank since it doesn't have to be trackside. If you can fit in a sanding tower and/or an ash pit, it is worth it to do. It would make your facilities more authentic.

It really amazes me how close your yard and engine terminal are to mine schematically. I have a few more tracks for both, but operationally, they are just about identical. I am hoping to be able to post some pictures within a week. Just a few finishing touches before I am ready to show it off.

[CNJ831]

With regard to interchange traffic and foreign roads using the Put has an emergency bypass, this was very rare and not worth much serious consideration. As to the question of milk runs, for the Put they all ended in the NYC area...they did not go else where. Freight traffic originated in the city and essentially terminated at or before Brewster (or along the Brewster to NYC run if southbound). There was little northbound through or interchange freight traffic.

As you indicated, the PUT was mainly a commuter line that handled a little freight work. I'd strongly urge sticking to that concept. And I still have to say that I do not understand the logic and arrangement of the dual but non-parallel runs between Yonkers/Bronx and Brewster as, outside of employing some station names, it has no resemblance to the Put's actual track arrangement. If you want even the slightest similarity to the Put, the stations and landmarks must come in the proper, successive order...not some on one leg and some on the other.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

You guys are gonna' force me to redesign yet again! LOL! Yea, guys, the TT track from the station was probably going to have to come out anyway when I try to fit larger TT. As for staging, the small hidden track is strictly for a short commuter train to wait to make its appearance from the Harlem Division. My original trackplan was going to have a large staging yard (8'x3') but I have to traverse an aisle to the left of the layout. I was trying to avoid having to buid a hinged bridge or a drop down bridge but perhaps the effort would be worth it for the payoff. I could then stage large trains from New Haven line and send trains there also. One of my concerns was getting overcomplicated. My prototype railroad was not a major freight carrier. It was more of a small commuter line.

Keep the comments coming - I'm going to take yet another look at the plan for improvements. Better to do it now then later! Thanx all!

[SpaceMouse]

I wondered about the TT to Brewster leg as well. I doubt the prototype would use the TT as you describe.

Your layout is is set up so that you could run in either direction, but you ability to switch is not. Right now you can switch everything if you always run counter-clock-wise, but to get into the Yonkers you have to take your engine into the Bronx. Then you can switch everything in. What I am saying is that you need runarounds at your switching points.

As for you small staging track, while you might be able to stash a small train back there, it doesn't really serve the purpose of staging. Where do you sell you milk? All over the country right? That's what staging is, the rest of the country. You send your milk to Boston, Albany, and Newark. Whole freight trains full of milk disappear into Boston (staging) and whole trains full of livestock feed and antibiotics that appear to fuel your businesses from Harrisburg (staging). These trains are broken down and built in your yard then sent to the rest of your layout for distribution. Empties and milk cars are picked up and taken back to your yard for shipping out.

[Anonymous]

LOL! You knew where to get me Don. I have actually had that track in and out of my various plans. Originally, that track was simply so engines coming from that direction could turn around without having to go around and backup thru the yard (also for straight access to service tracks). But then I realized that it will probably be used also by larger passenger engines to pull out and then back up to pick up their passenger cars waiting in the siding. This way they don't have to go thru the yard and disrupt switching which may be going on and won't disript the mainline while passenger cars wait on siding. Both tracks leading to the yard from the TT are service tracks for steam. I considered using this track as service for deisels (just a thought). Lastly, I thought it was kind of cool that I could run a train right through the TT. LOL!

Does this thinking seem sound to you guys? Let me know.

[Don Z]

Surfstud,

It looks like a great plan to me. I've been following the transitions from your original design. The only thing I see that is questionable is the lead from Brewster Station to the turntable. It appears as though a train could run straight through the turntable to the yard....what is your theory behind having that track there?

Don Z.

[Anonymous]

It took painstaking work to accomplish but here it is! It's a Masterpiece of railroad planning! We now have Phil's flattened S curves and Fred & Phil's siding in Yonkers/Bronx - made it bigger guys, you like? Still kept better than 18" radius too. Not too shabby. We also now have leading tracks into the yard and a turnout in the middle of yard to assist switching operations. Someone asked about the turntable - the one shown is small 90' but mine will be 130' - that's why I left some room to accomodate it. I'm pretty sure I can fit it. Notice there is a hidden staging track now - I went back to train room and realized there is a window which will be behind my backdrop. Pretty slick, eh? It will only fit short commmuter trains but that is what the Harlem Line ran pretty much in those days (nowadays they are rather lengthy). I really like the wharf area idea too, not too far a reach either since the Put is near the Harlem & Hudson rivers. I'll have to give that some serious thought.

Once again I put forward to all of you the ultimate track plan - give me the good, bad, and ugly. So far your ideas and suggestions have been awesome. I challenge you now to tear this plan apart. Let me have it! LOL!