Control Panel Advice

[HAZMAT9]

As things wind down I want to get as many electrical connections in before I start ballasting. Can anyone recommend a site or advice on designing a control panel to control my 20 or so switches. Got so many that it's hard to keep track of which way they're thrown resulting in derailments. As well, is their a sensor or something that can be wired to the track in increments which would show the moving train in LED on the control panel? I would think that it might be a pain sometimes in trying to track the train by sight then quickly referring to the control panel in hopes of throwing the switch in time. My plan has a few mainlines and many switches.....difficult plan it is [:0].

[TomDiehl]

I'm still using that ancient stuff called block and cab control. The best I've found for a layout, large or small, is a track diagram type control panel with the switch controlling switches (now I see why model railroaders use the term "turnout") on the diagram at the same place as the switch it controls. As far as which way the switch is thrown, you didn't mention what type switch machines you're using. Most of the stalled motor type have extra contacts that can be wired to control lights on the panel and they're usually mentioned , along with how to wire them, in the diagram that comes with the machine.

[HAZMAT9]

I plan on using Tortoise along with Atlas switches. It would be nice if I can see the train displayed in motion using LEDs in order to throw the switch avoiding derails and collisions.

[Anonymous]

How good are you at basic electronics Steve? I'm thinking you could use a simple detector like Infared type. If you can make your own it would be much cheaper than store bought.
You could make schmatic diagram of the layout on a board (or more than one depending on the size of your layout) and install indicator LEDs, related to the position of the detector. It might make the layout simple to operate by installing the turnout control switches where turnouts are indicated on the diagram.
Check out this web site for some ideas and circuits.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CircuitIndex.html#Light

As for the position of the turnouts, indicator LEDs connected to the turnout control switch would tell you which way a switch is thrown (green for normal, red for reverse). Of course you must use a capasitor discharge circuit to prevent the Atlas twin coil switch machine from burning out. Also the voltage lighting the turnout indicator LEDs would have to be reduced with a resistor.

I don't have time right now but I'll try to come up with links or photos later of what I'm saying.

[HAZMAT9]

I searched a few of the sites with programs and hardware to do such...pretty expensive and it sounds pretty simple. May give the IR a whirl though as small as my layout is (13' by 7') won't this pose a problem if I'm pulling a long consist (IR stays lite on a block with a long train)? Unless sensors are placed far apart which may defeat the purpose. I do like the idea, makes good sense. I just wasn't sure if they had something that was placed over the track which senses just the loco, instead of all the cars passing. Gary, I'll be curious to see any examples you come up with. Thanks!

[MisterBeasley]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HAZMAT9

I plan on using Tortoise along with Atlas switches.

Do you mean some Tortoise machines and some Atlas machines, or all Tortoise machines driving all Atlas turnouts?

The Tortoise machines are continuously powered, while Atlas machines are momentary. If you use Tortoises, you can use a toggle switch (DPDT, no center) on the control panel that in itself will indicate the turnout position just from the way the toggle handle is pointing. For Atlas machines, you need an SPDT, momentary contact with center off, so the control panel switch does not "remember" which way it was last thrown. The Tortoises all have auxilliary contacts for driving indicators, while the Atlas generally do not, although I think they make aftermarket models that do.

[HAZMAT9]

Tortoise machines driving Atlas turnouts, I was thinking more of illuminated push-button type so I can see which switch is thrown and the route illuminated.

[fwright]

Steve

I can't recommend enough doing several local panels with as close to walk-around control as you can get instead of a central panel with a light show. This is from a person who designs and implements crisis command centers for 1st responders and government. The problem with indicating lights is that you focus your attention on the control panel and what the lights are telling you, not on what the train is doing and how great it looks because of your modeling efforts.

Instead of putting the wiring and design effort into position lights for trains and turnouts, put the same effort into building a couple of walk-around throttles that you can plug in at several places on your layout. This assumes DC cab control; if using DCC, walk-around throttles, both wired and wireless, are but a credit card away. Put the turnout controls at a mini-panel right near the turnouts themselves. This way you can see your trains up close and from different perspectives and settings, you can see which way the turnout is thrown, and you tend to operate at more realistic (slower) speeds. The position lights are not needed except for night operations and hidden trackage. Last benefit of local panels is that you will/can do a lot more switching because you can perform the coupling /uncoupling operations much easier, no matter whether you use uncoupling ramps or manual methods.

The one drawback to local panels with cab control is the possibility of assigning more than one throttle to the "transistion" blocks - the blocks between local panels. The transition blocks have to have toggles at both local panels. To make it work with more than one simultaneous operator and train in cab control, you must have the operational discipline to turn off (disconnect from any throttle) all blocks not actually in use. DCC avoids this problem by addressing locomotives rather than track blocks, which is why DCC is so great for multiple operator layouts.

As others have said, putting control switches on a track diagram helps a lot, even at the mini-panels. The block toggles are normally oriented to throw horizontally to point at the throttle being selected. For plug-in walk-around controllers, the receptacles are usually located on either side of the panel so the block toggle switch would point to the receptacle being selected. Gaps in the lines of the track diagram indicate block boundaries, with the toggle usually placed in the center of the block.

Tortoise switch machines can use a toggle oriented to throw vertically to indicate turnout position. Tortoise instructions explain how to wire position indicating lights and LEDs for the machine, but again these would only be needed for turnouts you can't see from the local panel. Since Atlas switch machines use momentary controls - either a momentary toggle or 2 push buttons - the momentary push buttons or toggles are also usually oriented vertically on the diagram so moving the toggle or pushing the button gives the route shown on the track diagram. A separate Snap Relay is required for Atlas switch machines to provide contacts for turnout position LEDs or lights.

Hope this helps.

yours in control wiring
Fred W

[HAZMAT9]

With so many switches, how does one reasonably control them using a DCC system? If you name them let's say 1-12 you would have to remember where they are or label them somehow in order to know which one you're throwing. I thought about a walk around though my space is limited on the farside of the layout. I have only a few feet to squeeze into, just enough to get in and do scenery and re-rail if necessary. I have a pretty good view of the layout from one side with no hidden yards or areas. I did plan on purchasing a couple of throttles for around the layout and installing phone jacks to op them. The track diagram would help, which I planned to do and mounting it on the control board. I really need to study my layout more since there's so quite a few route possibilities with all the switches. So much to think about, so little time. [(-D]

[fwright]

Most folks with DCC (from what I can see - I'm still a straight DC guy because there is only 1 operator at a time - me) don't use DCC to control the turnouts. I suspect that calling up a turnout and throwing it with your DCC throttle while running a train - especially on a smaller layout - sets you up for more mental stress than most of us want from model railroading. While you can use a 4 digit address for the turnouts, as you point out, until the DCC throttles can use alpha-numeric addressing and have good readouts, remembering which address is which turnout is more difficult than a central control panel with banked turnout control switches.

So the vast majority of DCC users do as us DC guys do - normal toggle switch or push button control on a track diagram or manually throw their turnouts. I have seen an alternate control scheme where you have a handheld metal probe that you touch to a screw or pin head on your panel instead of push buttons. I'm not a big fan of "hot" contact spots on the control panel - both the probe and contact have to be wired directly - but it it is neat to watch in operation.

Don't think too hard, pick an alternative that seems to suit you best and do it. There is no right or wrong, just subtle shades of ease of operation and wiring complexity. Have fun!

Fred W

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright

Most folks with DCC (from what I can see - I'm still a straight DC guy because there is only 1 operator at a time - me) don't use DCC to control the turnouts. I suspect that calling up a turnout and throwing it with your DCC throttle while running a train - especially on a smaller layout - sets you up for more mental stress than most of us want from model railroading. While you can use a 4 digit address for the turnouts, as you point out, until the DCC throttles can use alpha-numeric addressing and have good readouts, remembering which address is which turnout is more difficult than a central control panel with banked turnout control switches.

So the vast majority of DCC users do as us DC guys do - normal toggle switch or push button control on a track diagram or manually throw their turnouts. I have seen an alternate control scheme where you have a handheld metal probe that you touch to a screw or pin head on your panel instead of push buttons. I'm not a big fan of "hot" contact spots on the control panel - both the probe and contact have to be wired directly - but it it is neat to watch in operation.

Don't think too hard, pick an alternative that seems to suit you best and do it. There is no right or wrong, just subtle shades of ease of operation and wiring complexity. Have fun!

Fred W

Yeah, I'm one of those guys. On my last layout I hooked up the switch decoders and the whole works, then wished I hadn't. So much easier to flip a toggle than push 9 buttons to throw one turnout...

[Stevert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HAZMAT9

With so many switches, how does one reasonably control them using a DCC system? If you name them let's say 1-12 you would have to remember where they are or label them somehow in order to know which one you're throwing.

The nice thing about DCC is that it gives you options.

Depending on the DCC system in use, you can select and activate them with your throttle.

You can also use local control with many DCC stationary decoders, with push buttons on a panel or simply mounted on the fascia.

Finally, there is computer control, using software such as PanelPro:
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/apps/PanelPro/PanelPro.html

Keep in mind also, that with all three of these methods (again, depending on your DCC system), you can also set up routes. With a single switch address on your throttle, a single push button, or a single mouse click, you can align a series of turnouts.

And for remembering the addresses, simply integrate that into your scenery. A mile marker, numbered whistle post, or something similar is all you need.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I use methods #1 and #3 now, and will implement #2 when the layout gets to the finished fascia stage.

HTH,
Steve

[HAZMAT9]

I almost forgot about the "route" control within DCC. I plan on using Prodigy ADV and I'm pretty sure that it has this option. Can you still set up routes with DCC and still incorporate toggles to control switches?

[Anonymous]

Steve
Fred W gave more detail on the idea of having more than one control panel. Keeping it close to the turnouts will save on wire too. A walk around throttle would be an advantage since you can see the train, you don't need indicator lights telling you where the train is.
That just leaves turnout position indication. As Fred pointed out, the position of the turnout control switch would indicate which way the turnout is thrown. You could place a peal & stick letter next to the switch such as "R" for reverse (or "S" for siding) and "N" for normal (or "M" for main).

I think what you are looking for are three different things. One is turnout position indication. Two, is block occupancy indication and three, is an indicator detecting if a turnout is fouled or cleared.
With the idea I had in mind, there is no programming or anything like that. It's going back to the old school way of doing things.
A light detector, such as an in infared or photoresistor, would be sutible for indicating a train is over or near a turnout. A detector is placed at a point before and after a turnout for each route. When the indicator light is on, it tells you a train is over the turnout and / or is fouling the tracks.
As for block detection, a current detection type detector would probably would be cheaper because only one is needed and more practical for long sidings or double track. It wouldn't give exact indication where a train is, just that it's somewhere in the block. But if you want to know exact location, use a combination of current sensing detectors to tell you a train is in the block and a few strategically placed light sensing detectors for exact location, so you know when to stop.
I haven't found an example of the control panel I'm talking about on the web yet. . Getting close though. I found something on the turnout indication lights. It's a Turnout Position Indicator Circuit by Rutger Friberg (shown for twin coil but should work the same for a Tortoise).
Of course you wouldn't need all that if you're using a walk around throttle. Unless you want to use a control pannel for a dipatchers pannel.

I have an old model railroad electronics book at home with a photo on the cover of the control pannel I'm trying to describe. I hope I can find a used one for sale with a photo of the cover.

[Anonymous]

Looks like I took too long to write my last post and I see there is more info now. So local control pannels are not a real option. And you plan on using DCC for train controll. Will you be using DCC for activating turnouts too?

[Anonymous]

After much hemming and hawing, we've finally settled on starting out with DCC control for the turnouts and small diagrams around the layout showing the numbers of each one. We don't do any high speed running, so there's no anxiety about making sure everything is lined up correctly far in advance.

If there was a ready to install and cheap toggle option that showed direction of the throw and was a *lot* smaller than the Atlas switches, we would have used it.

We considered the Acme push button controls, but for that price, we opted for DCC instead.

If we get frustrated with how the first module of the layout works with DCC, we'll retrofit toggles or buttons later.

Cheers,
Maureen

[rrinker]

Well for Tortoises all you need is a simple DPDT switch, there are several selelrs on eBay offerign them for about $2 each, maybe less. The position of the toggle handle will indicate which route the switch is lined for. For a littel extra, you can get ordinary red and green (or whatever color you like, actually) LEDs and wire them in series with the Tortoise motor, nothing else required, and mount these in the panel as well. Then you'd have both a physical indicator in the switch handle and the LED to indicate the selected route.
You can also use the LEDs when driving a Tortoise with a DCC stationary decoder in the same way, just put the LED in series with the Tortoise motor wire.
That's the beauty of using a Tortoise. Easy indicator lights. You cna even use smaller LEDs and put signals trackside, although they would only indicate routing and not if the track ahead was actually clear or occupied. The circuit such as the Friberg one mentioned is only required for solenoid-type machines, it's WAY easier with a Tortoise.

--Randy

[claycts]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

it's WAY easier with a Tortoise.

--Randy

And CHEAPER, I dumped all the Atlas #66 when they did not LOCK the ponis and a GG1 picked a point and hit the floor. Tortise will save you money.
Take Care

[Pruitt]

Here's what I did for a control panel:



The frame is just scrap 2X8s (actually, old stair treads that led from the basement to outdoors) trimmed to make a sloping panel and grooved to support the panel face. The face is just a sheet of plain white paper with the graphics added using Adobe Photoshop and MS Paint, sandwiched between two sheets of lexan, all of which slide into the frame grooves.

Here we're looking at the back of the panel with the back frame removed. This view is nearly edge-on to the panel proper. I hadn't started wiring it yet when I took this shot:



The switches are SPDT submini toggles from Digi-key. The panel is roughly the size of a sheet of letter paper - 8 1/2 X 11 inches.

The cost of the panel itself was almost nothing, save for the lexan sheets, which totaled about $10. I got those at Lowes. Electrical components were the most expensive part, of course. The switches are SPDT submini toggles (I use Tortoise switch machines). They and the terminal strips are from Digi-key. The panel sits on one of those wheeled, chromed-wire kitchen carts so I can roll it around a bit, with it's cables tethering it to the layout.

The cabling which ties the panel to the layout looks like this:



The panel controls 16 turnouts.

[Anonymous]

All right! Mark B has the style of control pannel I was talking about.
I dug through my library and found the book I mentioned. It's the first edition of "Easy Model Railroad Wiring" by Andy Sperando. The first edition is out of print (which had a photo of a control pannel on the cover), however, the book has been updated and it is now the second edition. There's a chapter on control pannels.

[HAZMAT9]

I almost forgot that I was going to use DCC, so controlling the turnouts can be from this, though I think I'll still use a control panel with indicator lights in order to map my routes and illuminate which direction my switches are thrown. In terms of train position, the more I look at my layout, the more I think I'll dump the idea, since i really don't have any hidden areas and such. The input so far gives me many ideas to ponder. I did check out the Electronics MR page and it had some great ideas, thanks Gary.

[jxtrrx]

Mark... I love your control panel (and the idea of mounting it on a rolling cart). I had that idea too! -- After I built mine into the fascia and wired it.[:(]

One thing I really like on my panel is that I used the red and green LEDS to indicate position. At a quick glance if there's a single red glow, I know I have at least one fouled turnout. I have some Tortoises and mostly Atlas. For the Atlas, I used their relay to control the LEDs. (If I ever do a new layout, I'll go all Tortoise mainly because as George points out it really locks the points -- looks better too).

I like the control panel concept, because I prefer running multiple trains, so I can't "walk around" with all of them.