WIRING HEADACHES

[Medina1128]

The nice thing about Tortoise switch machines is that I do my power routing through the contacts built into the switch machine. I use Atlas turnouts and, yes, while they do use rivets to hold things together, I have yet to have one fail, in the 3 layouts I have built. I did pay a little extra to get the ones with the metal frogs, and insulating the rails connected to the frog is a little pain in the patooti, it beats that dead frog syndrome with my shorter locomotives.

[fwright]

johnny

From the sound of things, it's not the location of the gap that's the problem. The frog feeder wire must be connected to a SPDT electrical contact that switches the frog polarity when the turnout is thrown.

Looking at a left turnout from the point end: when the turnout is set to go left the frog must have the polarity of the right-hand stock rail. When the turnout is thrown for straight, the frog must have the same polarity as the left hand stock rail.

Typically, all but Atlas switch machines (not sure about Peco) have an extra contact for this purpose. Atlas sells a relay separately to provide the contact for this or other purposes. The Caboose Hobbies manual throws are also available with the necessary contact. Modelers who make their own turnout throws often incorporate a slide switch in the mechanism to provide the electrical contact.

The frog feeder attaches to the moving part of the contact. The other 2 terminals of the contact are connected to the stock rails of the turnout. You have to check to make sure the contact sets the polarity correctly, as previously described.

If the above is done correctly, the only way a short happens when wheels bridge a gap is when a train is approaching a turnout that is thrown against it. In this case, a momentary short is not necessarily a bad thing! In fact, old-timers used to deliberately put the frog gap just after the distance from the frog where a stopped train could be cleared by a train on the other track (called the clearance point). This way, a train approaching a turnout set against it would stop (along with momentary short circuits as the wheels bridged the gap) in a position where it would not be hit by a train proceding through the turnout properly.

Hope this helps

yours in turnout wiring

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the help. I did try to add a feeder wire to the frog end and I gapped the rail too. But I added the gap too close to the switch and when the locomotive crossed the gap it was connecting both rails and shorting out the track. Does that sound right? If I put the gap further down the rail then this won't happen?

So in other words, do I have to to add a wire to each turnout to get the sidings to be powered? This is frustrating. The books all make it sound so easy. The switch rail provides power to whichever track is selected. Yeah right!

[fwright]

Power routing turnouts without any extra wiring depend on the points making solid contact with the stock rail (as you discovered) when thrown that direction. A little piece of ballast or dust is enough to prevent that contact from happening (as you discovered). Depending on the point-to-stock rail contact just isn't reliable enough (as you discovered). Even in the old days, when power routing turnouts were near universal, most folks eventually ended up installing a frog feeder attached to a contact on the switch machine to get a more positive connection.

The preferred method of turnout construction today (for both DC and DCC) is to have the 2 points insulated from each other, and electrically tied to the adjoining stock rail. This prevents short circuits when the back of a metal wheel riding the stock rail contacts the open point - which is of the opposite polarity in a traditional turnout. The older turnouts with electrically connected points tried to avoid these shorts by moving the point further away from the stock rail, and having a larger point throw. The newer Micro Engineering and Shinohara turnouts - labeled DCC friendly - have the points insulated from each other. You can tell the difference by the way the points are linked. Traditional points have a metal tie bar between the two, DCC friendly does not.

A consequence of having the points insulated from each other and electrically tied to the adjoining stock rails, is that the frog MUST be insulated from the points (you have 2 points of opposite polarity now). With the frog insulated from the points, you HAVE to use a frog feeder and frog polarity contact on your switch machine/turnout throw device for the frog to be powered.

Power routing turnouts of either variety will create shorts (as you discovered) if fed from the frog end. Since the frog can be of either polarity depending on which way the trunout is thrown, you cannot have a feeder in the frog rail on the frog end. You need to insulate the frog by adding an additional gap (as you read). So you must check your wiring diagram for any frog-to-frog connections and insert a gap in all frog rails. Also, any feeders on the frog side must also have a gap in the frog rail. Note, that these gaps can be and often are combined with block gaps.

Try drawing this out on a track plan. Trace each rail to see the frog-to-frog connections, and for feeders on the frog side of a turnout. Or if you can gain access, Jack Work's article in April 1963 Model Railroader explained this quite well.

The nice thing about power routing turnouts is for spurs or stub yards. If the turnout is thrown against the spur or yard track, the track is dead because both rails are the same polarity. By taking advantage of this feature in cab control wiring, fewer block switches are required. The downside is figuring out where the required gaps are needed.

yours in wiring
Fred Wright

[Anonymous]

I am having a lot of trouble with the power routing turnouts. I wired a turnout and only one side had power. I had to run extra feeders to the other side to get power. This defeats the purpose of the power routing turnouts. What is the deal? I don't want to have to put in a lot of extra gaps and feeders just to get my layout to work. Sigh....

Also, if anyone is thinking of detailing a section of their layout before wiring, DO NOT DO IT!!!!! I was intimidated by the wiring so I decided to detail this small 2X6 section of the layout. No big deal, it's a small section. Wrong! Now I am trying to wire it and it is horrible. Fortunately we will be moving in a couple of years and this layout is the practice layout. I can work out all of my mistakes here and nothing will go wrong with the next one. HA HA.

Seriously, this wiring has got me down. If anyone has any advice on power routing turnouts, let me know. According to the wiring books ya only need a couple of feeders for the common rail. BS!!!!

[dragenrider]

One of the comments you made was about clamping the turnout rail. You are aware that you need to have some sort of turnout control device which holds the turnout rail firmly against the main rail, right?

Another item of note is that if you put two power routing turnouts facing each other, you'll get a conflict and a short. You have to gap those and provide feeders.

Hope this helps a little bit. Post the diagram!

[Anonymous]

I just ripped all the wiring out. Seven hours down the drain. Is there some way I can post a drawing of this area of the layout that I am wiring so you can see the track and maybe help me decide where to put feeders and gaps?

I know where I need to gap the rails but it still isn't working. I had power to a section but the siding didn't have power. Shinohara (Walthers) and Micro Engineering turnouts are power routing, right? So when I switch the track to the siding shouldn't the siding be powered? Do I have to run a feeder to the siding, and if so, can I just splice the wire into the other feeder? I don't want to have a million toggles. I put eight toggles in this section of the layout and that is plenty. UGH! I wired my entire basement with no problems, why can't I wire this?
Thanks,
John+

[ARTHILL]

you are the right track. Each section needs its own feed and switch. I use DPDT even though it is not necesary. There needs to be a gap at least after every frog. Also each reversing event needs a gap at each end and a reversing switch. If you have not drawn it out in two colors that helps. Every time colors meet, you need a gap. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Thanks. I am not using Atlas switches. I am using mostly Micro Engineering and Shinohara. I went back and re-read some of the wiring manuals and they all recommend to gap both rails where two switches meet frog to frog. I didn't do that and that may be part of the problem. Also it recommends to connect the feeders at the point end of turnouts and I didn't do that in all of them.

If I correct those two problems and add some extra feeders I think it should be ok.

When the engine runs between two turnouts a few sparks can be seen by the wheels and then the engine stops. Is this because the gaps aren't set correctly?

I don't want to have to start over but I have only wired this one section so it won't be too bad.

Any more advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
John

[tomikawaTT]

The only kind of switch that can be relied on to conduct electricity is an ELECTRICAL switch. Relying on points contacting the stock rails of turnouts is an invitation to open circuits, and those especially aggravating intermittent open circuits at that. (It ran last time. Why isn't it running this time?) Many switch machines have built in ELECTRICAL contacts, which should be used to route power to and beyond the frogs of your turnouts.

Secondarily, rail joiners are not the most reliable conductors either. Soldering jumpers around each rail joint is time consuming, but the result will be bulletproof power distribution.

[rolleiman]

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm

Even though you aren't DCC yet or won't be, this still applies.. I'm going to take a stab and guess you are using Atlas turnouts.. I can't stand them for one main reason.. They use rivet/baseplate assembly to conduct power to the moving points.. (I know after saying that there's going to be at least one person who has had atlas turnouts for 50 years and never a problem with them.) It makes for a easy turnout throw but in my experience is prone to failure.. I'm going this way because of your description of "clamping" the rails. I agree with IAN, Find out where your problems are, cure the causes, and the problems will fix themselves. To test my theory, if you are using Atlas or turnouts with a similar arrangement, take a screwdriver or a jumper wire and jump that rivet baseplate menagerie and see if your track then becomes live. Adding feeders will help but you will always have a dead spot on those turnouts..

Good luck,
Jeff

[Anonymous]

I'm with Ian on this one. Be sure each branch is powered separately, don't count on any switches to power a siding for you. If you really want to get fancy, have each siding on it's own toggle, and all your toggles in a piece of plywood with a drawing of your layout on it. put the toggle on the drawing so it corresponds with the track it powers.

Greg

[Anonymous]

Hey Dude - S-T-O-P, now!!..... :-)

Now I've got your attention, I'll try and justify:

Quote: "I started with a complex industrial area of the layout and wired all the toggle switches and connected everything to the power pack to test it. I got nothing."

Why not? - Throwing (and *clamping*) a switch in order to 'somehow get power' to go round the layout is, IMCO, a recipe for disaster.....

You've got got to *know* (and document unfortunately!) how each and every section of track is powered.

Sorry to be the purveyor of bad news, but my recommendation is to start by *disconnecting* everything (you did use barrier blocks and the like?) - Then, get your trusty voltmeter (or test light) across a section of track that you think should be live when you connect 'A&B' - Note polarity. Note where this 'live' section 'ends' (think, the other side of frogs - will cause a break in connectivity on one rail, but not the other etc) So, you install a feeder to the 'dead' rail, test to ensure that what you think you did worked, and continue moving on around the layout gradually 'bringing it alive'......

Other may have other ideas, but you asked, and I say STOP and rethink.

Good luck,
Ian

[Anonymous]

Help!

I am wiring my layout and I am having problems. I haven't switced to DCC yet so I am wiring blocks for two cab controls. I started with a complex industrial area of the layout and wired all the toggle switches and connected everything to the power pack to test it. I got nothing. Then I threw a turnout and some of the track got power. After adding some extra common rail feeders more track became powered. Some of the track works only if I clamp the turnout rail tightly to the main rail. I cleaned all of the turnouts but still they won't work unless I clamp them. Should I just keep adding more feeders to the different spurs? This seems to work but I feel that I shouldn't have to do that. HELP!!!