Keeping even grades

[Anonymous]

After speaking with the owner of my LHS, I'm starting on my first layout. He's recommending that I use 1/4 inch ply, and cut out where the track will run, leaving the rest open and use chicken wire and plaster to make the scenery.

My question is, does anyone have a good way of maintaining even grades using this method? He said to use supports from the under frame of the bench work to make the grades. I just want to be sure that everything is smooth so I don't have a problem with cars coming uncoupled.


Thanks

[MisterBeasley]

1/4 inch ply is not very strong by itself, so you will need a lot of support under the table. 1/2 inch is better, and 3/4 would be better still. I personally use 2-inch foam, but that's just another option.

You might want to get the Kalmbach book (I think it's by Linn Westcott) about Benchwork. It explains all of the techniques. It's perfectly all right to combine different approaches in different parts of your layout. For example, you might have a large flat sheet for a yard, but use the cookie-cutter style (which is what you've described above) for runs through the mountains.

The important thing is to measure your grades carefully, and use a level and straight-edge to keep things at the right slope.

Since this is your first layout, I would try to come up with a plan that does NOT have a lot of grades. They are tricky, and can be frustrating. Instead, keep the trackwork flat and vary the elevation of the scenery. This is also much easier on your locomotives, which won't have to pull trains up hills.

[fwright]

More important than the actual amount of the grade is the transition from flat to the grade. Here the plywood will help you make a smooth vertical curve. What MisterBeasley says about 1/4 in ply is correct - unless supported about every 8 inches, it will tend to sag between supports. Ways around this include: 1) use 1/2 in ply supported every 16-18 inches or closer; 2) laminate a 2nd layer of 1/4 in ply - easier to laminate before putting in grades; 3) laminating foam or other rigidity-adding layer - again laminating before putting in grades is much easier. If you add foam, the result will likely be too rigid to bend into grades on a smaller layout, and you end up putting multiple layers of foam, then carving the grades into the foam - the normal technique for those who use foam. Using 2 in extruded foam allows you to do away with the plywood completely - it is rigid enough on its own if supported about every 16 in or so.

Leaving your benchwork open except where the track goes tends to make more convincing hilly or mountainous scenery because of the ease of making scenery below track level. It is more difficult to put in structures. Most MRs I know with open top layouts put in flat bases in areas of towns and multiple structures - an excellent use of your plywood or foam scraps.

Fred Wright

[dehusman]

The traditional method is to use "risers". There has to be some sort of understructure to attach all this to. Three of the most common are open grid, L gider and brackets.

Open grid uses a series of rectangular frames, typically made of 1x4's with cross joists to make a frame tha looks like a ladder. The joists are typically 12-24 inches apart.

L girder uses two girders, each made of 1x4 or 1x3's attached to form an upside down L. Across the top of the girders at placed joists, typically 1x4's on edge. The joists are placed as needed, typically 12-24" apart.

With brackets you have a bracket that projects out from a wall, either a shelf bracket or a triangle of 1x4's, that has a 1x4 on edge on top. They are normally attached to the studs in the wall and are so are typically spaced 16 or 24 in apart.

Risers are made using 1x4, 1x3, or 1x2's and raise the roadbed (plywood, etc) up to the level you want. They can be any length you want and can vary as needed to create the grade you need. The classical risers have a "cleat" on the top, a piece of 1x1 or 1x2 attached to the top of the riser to form an upside down L. The risers are screwed to the side of the joists. You can attach them flat side to the joist or on edge to the joist depending on the direction of your roadbed. You screw up through the cleat into the roadbed. By doing that you can remove a riser or the roadbed after the track is on place. If you screw down from the top through the roadbed into the riser you will cover up the screws when you lay track and scenic things. If that's not a concern then you don't need cleats. You can screw and glue cleats to the risers, but don't glue risers to the joists or risers to the roadbed. If you have a wide area (a yard) you can put two or more risers with a long cleat between them or use several risers.

I wouldn't use 1/4 in ply, too flexible. As stated before, 1/2 in is better and 3/4 ply is definitely sturdy. Personally I am using 1/2 in myself.

Dave H.

[Leon Silverman]

One other recomendation: If you choose to laminate your plywood to get a better thickness, stagger the joints. Being personaly kinky is your own business, but you don't want kinky subroadbed.

[selector]

The risers make the most sense for you. More cost, but not an arm and a leg. As stated, unevenness in your grades is what will give you fits; that and abrupt transitions into and out of the grade. Grades require a great deal of determination and patience to make them work. However, once you get them right, and your locos will tell you this, they add a great deal to the visual appeal of your layout.

Very big tip for you: keep your grades less than 3%. Another tip: keep your grades to 2.5% or less.

Good luck.

[dacort]

You can make a simple tool for measuring gradient with a level. I have a level that's 2' long, so I made blocks of varying heights to stick under one end. For example, a 1/2" block makes for approximately a 2% grade when the bubble is level and one end of the level is on the subroadbed, the other on the 1/2" block. I think there was something in MR a while back about making a stepped block for various grades in half or quarter-inch increments, which is the same idea.

You can set the grade in one spot, then move the tool to the next spot and check it again, and adjust accordingly. I cut my risers just slightly short so they're easy to shim with washers to make fine adjustments.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MolsonFL

After speaking with the owner of my LHS, I'm starting on my first layout. He's recommending that I use 1/4 inch ply, and cut out where the track will run, leaving the rest open and use chicken wire and plaster to make the scenery.

My question is, does anyone have a good way of maintaining even grades using this method? He said to use supports from the under frame of the bench work to make the grades. I just want to be sure that everything is smooth so I don't have a problem with cars coming uncoupled.


Thanks

[Anonymous]

Take it from an "Old" newbie building his first layout. 1/4" plywood is WAY too thin. I used 1/2 to build a 5 x 9 layout with several grades. The next time I'd probably go with 3/4 to keep the transitions smooth.

Also beware of spiicing sections together with a splice plate underneath. Make absolutely sure that the splices are parallel before the glue dries. A couple of mine weren't and I'm having to redo them.

The subroad bed is the foundation of the layout. If it isn't right, you always regret it. Reworking a section takes far more time than doing it right the first time.

It is a learning experience! And what fun it is!

Sorry about the strange post prior to this one. Hit the wrong button!

Hank

[claycts]

THere is a printable FREE grade chart. Under my signature and just click on GRADE CHART. It cover all the grades and makes it easy. YOU measure "X" distance and the chart tells you how high that point should be.
George P.
"No trains till after the car show!"

[electrolove]

The free grade chart looks really great. It must be very easy when you have tools like that.

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

THere is a printable FREE grade chart. Under my signature and just click on GRADE CHART. It cover all the grades and makes it easy. YOU measure "X" distance and the chart tells you how high that point should be.
George P.
"No trains till after the car show!"

[claycts]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

The free grade chart looks really great. It must be very easy when you have tools like that.

The older you get the more CHEAT SHEETS you need. I had a nasty problem when I last built a layout in 1972, the grades where more like an incline and the damages caused by that told me the NEXT TIME do it right.
If the chart helps people great.
George P.
"Working on car for show, no trains YET"

[selector]

As Tim pointed out in a related thread just today, I have mixed terminology. Risers are for elevated track, but it is the Woodland Scenics "inclines" that you need. Sorry for the oversight.

[anbhurst]

One of the ways that I have established even grades, level bridges and supered curves is by using a simple lazer level. After plumbing my camera tripod, I place the lazer level on top and then shoot my lines much like a survey locating crew would do in the field. The results have been surprising to say the least. I have even and smooth transitions. I think if you will give this a try, you will have the same results.

Allen [:D]
Modelliin' the East in the West on the Northeastern Pacific RIM, here in Oregon!

QUOTE: Originally posted by MolsonFL

After speaking with the owner of my LHS, I'm starting on my first layout. He's recommending that I use 1/4 inch ply, and cut out where the track will run, leaving the rest open and use chicken wire and plaster to make the scenery.

My question is, does anyone have a good way of maintaining even grades using this method? He said to use supports from the under frame of the bench work to make the grades. I just want to be sure that everything is smooth so I don't have a problem with cars coming uncoupled.


Thanks

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts
(...) the grades where more like an incline (...)

Forgive me for saying this, George; but grades are inclines.

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector
(...) it is the Woodland Scenics "inclines" that you need. (...)

Great things about the WS Inclines :

since the inclines are flexible, you can make curves;

quick and easy to install;

no need to hurt your brain calculating angles and grades, just choose the grade you want glue it in place; and

vertical curves (transitions) are included in the WS Inclines sets.

The downside is that they do cost some money; but you save a lot of aggravation and frustration.