DCC upgrade...what mfg and why?

[tomytuna]

Hello everyone!....fall here in New england and time to get back to layout...I'm in process of upgrading my layout to next generation DCC system
1. Presently have the original MRC prodigy....was good for start..but we are looking to upgrade.
2. can all you pro's advise what or who's system you have and make serious comments as to pros & Cons....
3. looking @ Digitarx with wireless control..NCE, MRC etc.
4. The real reson for this post is I plan on this new system to last long long time and although i'm sure there will be new technology in future...I don't want to make a mistake and buy wrong system
5. I see MR is running DCC buying guide in DEC issue....but want real input and not to satisfy advertizers.....
Thanks in advance for any and all comments
TOm

[Anonymous]

Hi, Tom. When I decided to convert to DCC about 3 years ago, I choose Digitrax (Super Chief). At the time, I had narrowed my choices down to Lenz and Digitrax and ended up selecting Digitrax because of their higher amp rating. Since then, I believe Lenz has upgraded their rating though. If you haven't done so, I would suggest going to the Tony's Train Exchange site and looking at the DCC Comparison Chart there. It shows multiple systems and the features of each side by side. I found that it really helped to narrow in on the features that were important to me when making my selection.

Here's the link: http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm

[Anonymous]

I also went with Digitrax and bought the Chief with Radio control back in 1998 and have had no problems with the equipment. There is a very big learning curve both Digitrax and DCC, so I've had a few problems along the way mainly with programming and me learning from my mistakes. I would also advise looking into the different systems and pick the one that has the features you desire. Any of the bigger names in DCC have well designed systems. My system has been very dependable and is still compatible with everything coming out today. I'm breaking in a BLI mountain right now. I had no problems programmiing it or accessing all of the sound features.

[rolleiman]

I have to throw in another vote for Digitrax. Not that I have anything against any of the other systems, that's just the one I use (what is now sold as the super chief).. The original reason I Chose digitrax was simple.. They answered my email inquiry in a timely manner when I was first seeking a system ('97 or '98).. At the time, they were just introducing the Empire builder and Genesis (the one the Zepher replaced) systems and thier top of the line throttle was the DT100.. The email I wrote (every manufacturer) was simple.. Something to the effect of, "with all the changes likely to come in the next several years, will your newer stuff be compatable with older stuff".. Thier answer was Basically, Yes. With the Loconet system, adding components would be (basically) as simple as plugging it in.. In all fairness to the rest of them (CVP, NCE, Etc) they did eventually answer but by then I had already made my mind up...

In my experience, thier customer service has been outstanding. Not what I would expect from an electronics company (trains or not). IF you go with the digitrax, I HIGHLY recommend the DT400 throttle. Makes programming a snap.

Good luck,
Jeff
[swg]

[bn7026]

I went with NCE in 1999. Before I did I researched all the systems available to me over the web. At that time the only local users were mainly Digitrax - one club of which i'm a member runs Digitrax on their layout and it seems to run fine.
Of major concern to me with Digitrax was the throttle interface - I'm very computer literate and it took me some time to work out how to properly break up a consist.
On first look the NCE manual seemed very easy to follow so I went with that system and am very glad I did. Actually I rarely look at the manual - the throttle interface takes you all through the steps....

Nowadays NCE is about the biggest seller in these parts - highly recommend it!

Tim[;)]

[cacole]

For upgradeability, you might also want to check EasyDCC by CVP Products in Richardson, Texas. As significant upgrades become available, you can just remove their EPROM and replace it with the upgrade version.

Some systems require that you send the unit back to the factory for upgrade. CVP sends you a new EPROM and you can do it yourself.

They also have a radio control system. Complete documentation can be downloaded from their web site.

At first glance, their manual appears very daunting. After about five minutes, I put the manual away and relied only on the display prompts. Writing a manual in understandable English seems to be the downfall of many DCC companies because the electronics geeks who design the systems write in their techno-babble.

http://www.cvpusa.com

[jwar]

Timely post as today I will order a DCC after many months of trying to make the right choice. Will go with CVP easy DCC account of no negitive feed back of its system, Also that it has two fixed cabs ( i have one yard over the other ) and the 5 amp radio. Pricing the better systems I think with 3 cabs and a system thats easely upgraded is the way for me to go without upgradeing and costing more in the long run.

Dont get me wrong...all mfg defentely have good systems...not knocking any...just want it simple, a one time purchase, easy to use, quality equipement....John

[dehusman]

First mistake, buying a "starter" system.

If you buy the real deal first, you never have to pay extra to "upgrade" you have all the bells and whistles right from the start.

I would reccommend NCE. After using Digitrax I wasn't particularly impressed, especially about their throttle design. I found them very non-intuitive and between different models buttons in the same place did different things. The NCE throttles are intuitive, and even though the "dogbone" throttle looks clunky, its still very easy to use.
I have one dogbone and 4 of the cab4p's, they have a big knob for speed control, very traditional. I have converted 3 of them to radio control.

Whichever type you go with, I would seriously think about radio control. saves you lots on plug ins and wiring and truly free's yout to concentrate on the trains.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

I have had EasyDCC from CVP since 1998. I'm still happy with it. Upgraded from two digit to four digit addressing when it became available. Easy as pie. I know some VERY happy Digitrax users in this area as well. I always thought Digitrax was designed to confuse the operator, but the new generation of thier products seems to have addressed this. EasyDCC is very easy to operate. I seldom refer to the manual.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomytuna

5. I see MR is running DCC buying guide in DEC issue....but want real input and not to satisfy advertizers.....

if you can you might want to wait for that article , they usually include a nice chart showing all the systems they review and their features . then you can just look for the features you want and go from there . once you narrow it down you can ask very specific questions here to get a final decision

[Anonymous]

I have tried NCE, Digitrax, and Lenz. I purchased Lenz. I have not regretted my decision either. The model railroad club I am in uses NCE. The NCE is a great system, but I find the throttle controller a bit complicated with too many buttons. It was also almost twice the cost of my Lenz 100 system too. I am using an external power supply which allows me up to 6 amperes of current for my system. I think that is enough. I agree with other posters, do NOT buy a starter set, as it is money wasted. Find a pro set that you like, and go for it.

[Pruitt]

I went with NCE. I want to run trains, not become an expert in some arcane control system programming routines. Being an engineer (as in a product designer, not a loco driver), I know I could master a Digitrax control system, but I really didn't want to take the time. NCE appeared to be the easiest full-up system to use, thanks to its generally friendly and easily-understood user interface.

I went with it and have not regretted it at all.

[ClinchValleySD40]

NCE. New radio system is great. Very easy to use. And they've got some new products in the pipeline that will blow your socks off.

[bn7026]

One point of advice I give to anyone looking at buying a DCC system - work out which systems interest you and then find local people with the same systems and ask if you can try it out.

All the research counts to nothing if you don't like the handset.......

Tim

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

I went with NCE. I want to run trains, not become an expert in some arcane control system programming routines. Being an engineer (as in a product designer, not a loco driver), I know I could master a Digitrax control system, but I really didn't want to take the time. NCE appeared to be the easiest full-up system to use, thanks to its generally friendly and easily-understood user interface.

I went with it and have not regretted it at all.

What "control system programming routines" would those be??

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman


What "control system programming routines" would those be??

Programming a decoder is one example. Of course, you can always just search through manuals each time you do something other than just pick up a throttle and run a loco....

What sold me on NCE was the two line display with generally plain-English prompts that take you step by step through most procedures, including command station programming, decoder programming, throttle set-up, etc.

[rolleiman]

I guess I don't see what's so difficult about selecting a CV, dialing in a value, and hitting the enter key on the DT400.. Maybe that's just me.. To select a loco, hit Loco, punch in or dial the address, and hit enter.. If it's on another throttle, it'll ask if you want to Steal it.. Yes or no... Can't get much simpler than that. If NCE has "english" prompts that ask what you want to change and based on the answer, then selects the CV for you, negating the need to look at a reference sheet (or remember the basics), then props to them... It doesn't take a rocket scientist Or an engineer or a programmer to use the digitrax. I have yet, in over 6 years found it necassary to program the command station. Loco address, accel, deccel, and CV29.. Unless it's a sound decoder or there are special lighting effects (mars, ditch, beacons, etc), that's about it.. I don't fool around with speed tables... All of these are things that need to be "programmed" in the decoder, regardless of the system used. Every decoder I've ever installed (with the exception of MRC) has come with a quick reference to select the proper CV for the effects. I've Never had to set up a throttle either.. Just plug it in and it's ready to go.

To each his own and I'm not looking to start a digitrax vs nce fight here.. But your statement that digitrax requires a lot of programming and manual reading is just flat out false. I Will conced that when the digitrax systems First came out (genesis, eb, and chief) the manuals did leave a lot to be desired.. Setting up and selecting a 4 digit address was cumbersome. But that's all changed now. What I would suggest to anyone Looking for a system is to download the manuals (if available, I know the digitrax ones are) and then decide for themselves. As I stated above, what finalized my decision was that Digitrax answered my email in a Timely manner. I figured with ANY of the systems, there would be a learning curve but, I was open to all of them.

Jeff
[8D]

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

I guess I don't see what's so difficult about selecting a CV, dialing in a value, and hitting the enter key on the DT400.. Maybe that's just me.. To select a loco, hit Loco, punch in or dial the address, and hit enter.. If it's on another throttle, it'll ask if you want to Steal it.. Yes or no... Can't get much simpler than that. If NCE has "english" prompts that ask what you want to change and based on the answer, then selects the CV for you, negating the need to look at a reference sheet (or remember the basics), then props to them... It doesn't take a rocket scientist Or an engineer or a programmer to use the digitrax. I have yet, in over 6 years found it necassary to program the command station. Loco address, accel, deccel, and CV29.. Unless it's a sound decoder or there are special lighting effects (mars, ditch, beacons, etc), that's about it.. I don't fool around with speed tables... All of these are things that need to be "programmed" in the decoder, regardless of the system used. Every decoder I've ever installed (with the exception of MRC) has come with a quick reference to select the proper CV for the effects. I've Never had to set up a throttle either.. Just plug it in and it's ready to go.

To each his own and I'm not looking to start a digitrax vs nce fight here.. But your statement that digitrax requires a lot of programming and manual reading is just flat out false. I Will conced that when the digitrax systems First came out (genesis, eb, and chief) the manuals did leave a lot to be desired.. Setting up and selecting a 4 digit address was cumbersome. But that's all changed now. What I would suggest to anyone Looking for a system is to download the manuals (if available, I know the digitrax ones are) and then decide for themselves. As I stated above, what finalized my decision was that Digitrax answered my email in a Timely manner. I figured with ANY of the systems, there would be a learning curve but, I was open to all of them.

Jeff
[8D]

Hmmm.. seems I inadvertantly triggered a bit of the old "Digitrax defensiveness." Sorry - I didn't mean to.

My last experience with programming a decoder on Digitrax indicated that if done infrequently it would be necessary to refer back to the manual for instructions. On the NCE, the instructions appear right on the throttle. Maybe your memory is better than mine, or you program more decoders.

I don't have anything against Digitrax. I did program a decoder using the Chief, I think it was, when I was deciding which system to buy. I don't remember a whole lot about it now, but it certainly wasn't something that you could do just by picking up the throttle and following the prompts it gave. With the NCE system that's exactly how it worked. The decoder programming routine on the Digitrax was somewhat arcane, especially in comparison to the NCE. Maybe Digitrax has revised their interface - if so I'm glad they followed NCE's lead in that arena (just kidding!).[}:)]

The learning curve on Digitrax was much steeper than on NCE. I have no doubt anyone can master it, and for common functions probably in very short order. I didn't want to. That's why I went with NCE.

There really isn't a right or wrong in choosing any of the quality DCC systems - it's a personal choice about what is most comfortable to the individual. The NCE interface is less "techie" than the Digitrax - at least they strike me that way. I like the less techie one better, that's all.

By the way, I never said that Digitrax required a lot of programming or manual reading - you inferred that. You also assumed that all my remarks were aimed at Digitrax, when in fact only one, in my original post, was (your assumption is why I limited my discussion to Digitrax and NCE in this post). I did imply that some systems would require more frequent reference to the manuals than NCE, and I stand by that implication.

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen,
I am a relative new comer to DCC and have an Atlas Commander controlling my little N scale layout. I’ve been following this forum for about a year now.
It seems that when someone asks for a recommendation for a new DCC system or an upgrade to a more complete DCC system, the responses lead to an unfriendly debate, at best, over Digitrax verses any other system. Why is it necessary to be so defensive about one’s choice of DCC system especially on an open forum. All of the DCC systems I have come across seem to work well for what they are designed.
The choice of systems is a personal one that is made considering ones needs, desires and personal experience. The only bad choice is an uninformed one. I hope it is the goal of this forum to provide information in an honest, clear and friendly format.

Please forgive me if this post offends anyone as that is not my intent.

Sincerely, Houston_Jack

[RedLeader]

I don't want to tell you mine is best, just why I choose it. I decided to go with MRC prodigy Advace for three main reasons: 1. Expandability for future techonlogies, 2. Features and user-friendlyness and 3. previous MRC owner.
It took me almost 4 months to decide, and a trip to the "States" to finally make my mind. I tryed several models including Digitraxe's Zephyr and NCE. I found that the PA combined the best of both... wasn't as cheap as the zephyr, cheaper than the NCE. Right now my layout is in a "genesis state" and still small, in the future I will consider wireless (IR or Radio). The PA isn't wireless yet, but it has an "expansion BUS" for future upgrades.

[rolleiman]

There is no devensiveness... If I read the following statement made by you incorrectly, I appologize...

"Programming a decoder is one example. Of course, you can always just search through manuals each time you do something other than just pick up a throttle and run a loco"

Jeff

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

There is no devensiveness... If I read the following statement made by you incorrectly, I appologize...

"Programming a decoder is one example. Of course, you can always just search through manuals each time you do something other than just pick up a throttle and run a loco"

Jeff

Well, it seemed to me that you read the name "Digitrax" in there somewhere, based on your earlier reply. Whereas when I wrote that, I was actually thiking of another product. No big deal in any case - I think we're ok here.....

There is one drawback to the NCE "plain-English" interface - you have to step through a whole list of options just to change one or two. For me that's not a big deal - I just hit the "enter" button to skip the unnecessary steps. I can see here that might be a real aggravation for some folks.

[tomytuna]

WOW!!!... you guys a GREAT!..I thank each and every one of your for taking the time out of yout train time to answer this question.....anyone else care to share as we will prob make decision in early Dec or late Nov....
ps....I deffinatly want a " User Friendly System" as I am no computer geek...and that is reason #1 for our original purchase of MRC prodogy system.....that system is and was a great beginner system..and I would still recomend it today for "Basic" easy DCC ops....again thanks to all and keep it comming ...as I see the debate is quite stimulating...TOM

[cmrproducts]

One of the problems (for lack of a better term) with the Keypads/Throttles is that the Digitrax keypad (DT400 & DT300) has 2 independent controllers in one package.

Yes NCE can run 2 trains but the Digitrax keypad can run both at the same time and I have, on many occasions done so (helpers), rather than MU the engines together.

This alone makes the Digitrax system seem more complicated than it is.

But a thought about buying a system is having the same as everyone else is using in the area. This goes a long way when you run into a problem on your layout and local help is available. Having someone to talk through a problem with always makes it easier.

And when you have an operating session you do not need to supply all of the throttles as your friends can then just bring theirs along and run!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Pruitt]

Good points, Bob.

With the NCE throttles, you can have up to nine locos stored in the throttle at once, but you have to use the "Recall" button to step through each one until you get to the one you want. You can send commands directly to only one loco at a time. I don't know how it works with consists - I've never used one (I run steam, and don't have a helper district).

I hope I didn't give the impression that you have to be a computer geek to use any of the systems (but I can see how I might have done just that). There are distinct differences in the learning curves, to be sure, but if you can program the clock on your VCR you can learn any of the DCC systems out there.

[Stevert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts


But a thought about buying a system is having the same as everyone else is using in the area. This goes a long way when you run into a problem on your layout and local help is available. Having someone to talk through a problem with always makes it easier.

And when you have an operating session you do not need to supply all of the throttles as your friends can then just bring theirs along and run!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

That's about the best advice so far in this entire thread! Find out what everyone else in the area is using, for the reasons Bob mentioned. If more than one brand is in use locally, then you can narrow it down based on features, ergonomics,etc.

You may also want to see what your LHS(s) stock/support, for the same reason. If you're having an operating session or open house tomorrow, you don't want to have to wait a week for that Brand X doohickey that you had to mail order because your LHS only stocks Brand Y.

Also, to address some of the previous discussions in this thread, you may want to look into JMRI/DecoderPro. It makes decoder programming easy no matter which brand of DCC system you have (It supports many/all of the major brands), and it opens up many other DCC possibilities as well (dispatching, signalling, automation, etc.) Best of all, it's free!

http://jmri.sourceforge.net/index.html

They also have a very active and helpful Yahoo! group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jmriusers/

HTH,
Steve

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton


Well, it seemed to me that you read the name "Digitrax" in there somewhere, based on your earlier reply. Whereas when I wrote that, I was actually thiking of another product. No big deal in any case - I think we're ok here.....

There is one drawback to the NCE "plain-English" interface - you have to step through a whole list of options just to change one or two. For me that's not a big deal - I just hit the "enter" button to skip the unnecessary steps. I can see here that might be a real aggravation for some folks.

I think so too... [:)]

It all comes down to the user interface, doesn't it.. There are going to be quirks with all of them that require getting use to. The older (DT100) throttles, though they can control 2 trains, setting things up on them Did get a bit annoying due to the 1 line display at times. Until I started installing sound in locos, no more than the given 4 function buttons were needed. Afterwards however, pressing a shift key to access the second set of functions (f5, f6, etc) kind of took some of the fun out of it.. The DT400 with it's full number pad changed all of that.. I've never used a dt300 and my dt100s pretty much stay on the hooks unless someone comes over to run the trains. To be completely honest, if I had to program and use a 4 digit address with the DT100, Now, I would have to dig out the Manual (now that I really think about it)[*^_^*]..

Jeff
[8D]

[Anonymous]

Digitrax. Cause I said so.

[kenkal]

Just about any of the larger systems are equally good, and pretty close in costs as well, all things being equal. I suggest you look around your city for users of the systems you are interested in and contact them.

Try each of the systems with everyday things you might do.. Assign an address to a loco. Recall a loco. What are the direction indicators? How do you change directions? How do you change the speed? Is there a momentum control on the throttle?

Set up a consist. Add/remove locos to the consist. Clear the consist.
How easy to program a decoder? How easy/difficult to access the functions on the throttle?

Look at the throttle displays. Compare them. Is one easier to read and use than the other? How does the throttle feel in your hand? How about the buttons or keys? Do you haver to look at the throttle, or can you do it by feel?

I agree with an earlier comment about NOT going with a basic starter system (those under$200). They are too limited and you'll likely outgrow it early on unless you are one to just run trains (1 or 2) around a 4x8 sheet of plywood. For that use, do get a starter system.

Myself? I did all the above and felt pretty good on deciding that the NCE system was the right one for me. Notice I said FOR ME. It was a close call between the Digitrax Super Chief and the NCE but I liked the NCE throttle, it's display and how intuitive the system was that lets me run the trains and not have to have a manual close by. The closer FOR ME was that NCE has 2 way communication and I hope to go radio some day.

Whatever system you choose, make sure it is the one you want , does what you want and you'll never regret your choice.
Ken

[tomytuna]

Well let me start by saying THANK YOU !!. to everyone who has replied to this post....I guess I'm still going to do a much research as I can Before Purchase.
Everyone of you has given great comments and again I thank You all...Tom