block wiring

[wickman]

Hi Guys
I'm to the point on my layout where I don't want to do any more permanent joint soldering till I figure out the wiring plan . Here is a pic of my plan that I will need to wire for dual cab possibly 3 cabs for DC wiring I will be running 2 trains on the main , the yrd and other seperated areas will have there own cab and I wanted to know what determines where to put insulated connectors for block control and if someone can perhaps explain to mean how the block control works on a simple level . What I have to fig out is where to put the insulators.
Do feel free to edit my plan for block s
thanks in advance.[:)]

[rolleiman]

Basically, cab control, as you know, is a way of running more than one train on a single track. The idea is to assign a cab (power supply) to a train and when ever that train is going to enter the next block you need to route power from the proper power supply to that section of track.. At that point the block the train just left, gets turned off so a following train can't plow into the rear of the first one. With me so far?? So what you want to do is decide how many blocks you want on the mainline. Remember that all you are powering is the locomotives, not the entire train but each block, as I state later, is usually a typical train length. I would suggest running 3 cabs into at least Part of your yard so you can use a consistant cab from start to finish of the run. For gapping (insulating rails) the general rule of thumb is a train length. You have some passing sidings on your main, each of those should be a block (I count 4 of them, 2 on each side part of the main, or is that the yard? ) and split the mainlines up into 3 or 4 blocks. That way you can have a train following another. Then isolate each of the spurs, you'll want a way to turn off the turntable tracks, etc.. Get the picture?? If you send me a bigger photo I'll gap it out.. My email is [e-mail] (keep it less than 500k please)..

Good luck
Jeff
[8D]

[MisterBeasley]

You've already put a significant amount of effort into this, so I assume you've considered using DCC on your layout. I'd be interested to know why you're going to install DC. DCC would greatly simplify your wiring, and allow you to run more trains at the same time without more equipment.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

You've already put a significant amount of effort into this, so I assume you've considered using DCC on your layout. I'd be interested to know why you're going to install DC. DCC would greatly simplify your wiring, and allow you to run more trains at the same time without more equipment.

well I guess i just haven't been sold on dcc yet and well I'm just a dc kinda guy for now any way LOL[:)]

[MisterBeasley]

Find a club, LHS or modeller in your area that is using DCC, and see if you can give it a try. I had the same lack of strong feelings about it, until I actually tried it for myself. I had about a dozen old DC engines at the time, and I'd planned on going DC until I got the layout built up, and then slowly converting. I received a small "achievement award" at work, and my wife was out of town, so I bought myself a DCC system. After 20 minutes I pulled out all the DC wires to the tracks, and I've never looked back.

My layout would be a lot further along now if I'd stayed with DC, though. Instead of working on the layout, I spend too much time running the trains!

[Anonymous]

I agree. I think after you try it, you won't want to go back. DC is going to be way more difficult and time consuming to wire, and much more of a pain to run. All that said, the other Jeff seems to have you covered if you still want to go DC.

[TomDiehl]

To answer your REAL question instead of trying to sell you something else (I hate when salesmen try to do that), block isolation or insulated rail joiners should be inserted on all rails at the frog end of the switches. This will allow you to electrically isolate spurs and sidings to park a powered engine there while running another.

Your plan doesn't appear to have any reverse loops or wye's so that's a couple wiring headaches you've avoided.

Two cabs is probably the easiest, you just need some DPDT (double pole double throw) switches, one for each block. The wires going to the track come off the center terminals and each cab is connected to one end or the other (ie, Cab A to left set, Cab B to right set). If you get the type of DPDT switch with center off, this will be all you need for control of each block. Plus, doing it this way prevents you from connecting both cabs to the same block at the same time. You can easily assign the third cab to control only the yard.

[trainfreek92]

wickman-block wiring is easy if you take it on step at a time. On way to do it is to cut the outside rail (not all the way through) and but a wire in it and solder it to the track. then cut the outside rail before it and after it. ( to stop power from entering when of and powering other shut off parts of the layout). then take the soldered wire and connect it to a shut off switch, then wire the switch to the powerpack. [:D]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman
Here is a pic of my plan that I will need to wire for dual cab possibly 3 cabs for DC wiring I will be running 2 trains on the main, the yrd and other seperated areas ...

Which track to you consider to be the main? Or are both loops considered mains?
Which tracks do you consider to be the yard?

[Texas Zepher]

Here is how I would block this.

It leaves the possibility open to add a passing siding and actually have two trains on a single loop.

[wickman]

the 2 mains are the 2 which travel the entire perimeter and the yrd is just the sidings up top ...so the mains contiually go around and the yrd is the sidings off of the 2 mains if that makes scence LOL I think I just confused myself even I feel sorry for you chaps that r trying to help LOL[:)]

[dgwinup]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

Here is how I would block this.

It leaves the possibility open to add a passing siding and actually have two trains on a single loop.

This looks good to me, about what I would have suggested.

I would go a little further, though, on the tracks located inside the left-side loops (roundhouse and switch-back sidings). Each roundhouse stall should be isolated, and I would isolate one of the turntable leads. This just gives you more control under DC. Even with DCC, roundhouse leads should probably be isolated.

On the switchback sidings, I would isolate each of the two sidings from the lead-in track. This will allow you to have two locos working the sidings and give you more 'parking' space for locos that are waiting for the lead-in track to clear.

You could also carry that thought over to the right-hand side of the layout, isolating a few of those sidings and definitely the run-around on the lead.

You can go as detailed as you like with isolating selected tracks. Remember, if you isolate the track and never turn it off, you are better than if you hadn't isolated it and need to now!

Darrell, insulatingly quiet...for now

[Anonymous]

Geez Lynn, give DCC a fighting chance. Why don't you go to the Digitrax site and read? Once it kicks you in the***what DCC is all about, you'll wonder why you ever considered DC. I promise, it ain't that hard! If this stupid***redneck can figure it out, I promise you, you can do it too.

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

You've already put a significant amount of effort into this, so I assume you've considered using DCC on your layout. I'd be interested to know why you're going to install DC. DCC would greatly simplify your wiring, and allow you to run more trains at the same time without more equipment.

well I guess i just haven't been sold on dcc yet and well I'm just a dc kinda guy for now any way LOL[:)]

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup


You can go as detailed as you like with isolating selected tracks. Remember, if you isolate the track and never turn it off, you are better than if you hadn't isolated it and need to now!

Darrell, insulatingly quiet...for now

this point is well taken better to have a power switch to turn off than non at all

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup
You can go as detailed as you like with isolating selected tracks. Remember, if you isolate the track and never turn it off, you are better than if you hadn't isolated it and need to now!

this point is well taken better to have a power switch to turn off than non at all

I agree too. The blocks I posted were where I would want a separate cab assigned. I didn't see each track in the roundhouse needing its own cab selector. There is always lots of room for more switchable dead sections.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

Here is how I would block this.

It leaves the possibility open to add a passing siding and actually have two trains on a single loop.

This looks good to me, about what I would have suggested.

I would go a little further, though, on the tracks located inside the left-side loops (roundhouse and switch-back sidings). Each roundhouse stall should be isolated, and I would isolate one of the turntable leads. This just gives you more control under DC. Even with DCC, roundhouse leads should probably be isolated.

On the switchback sidings, I would isolate each of the two sidings from the lead-in track. This will allow you to have two locos working the sidings and give you more 'parking' space for locos that are waiting for the lead-in track to clear.

You could also carry that thought over to the right-hand side of the layout, isolating a few of those sidings and definitely the run-around on the lead.

You can go as detailed as you like with isolating selected tracks. Remember, if you isolate the track and never turn it off, you are better than if you hadn't isolated it and need to now!

Darrell, insulatingly quiet...for now

this kinda makes scence but I have one question on the blocks that are indicated by the different colors where I have the arrow going from start to fini***here won't be any switches between the beggining of the switches on the 2 main lines all the way to the upper right where the mains come off the decline side is there a reason for the blocks that are indicated between those points or are they more for convenence or future use? I'm not quite understanding the purpose for those blocks .
Not that I don't appreciate the input more I don't understand...
[:)]

[dgwinup]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

Here is how I would block this.

It leaves the possibility open to add a passing siding and actually have two trains on a single loop.

This looks good to me, about what I would have suggested.

I would go a little further, though, on the tracks located inside the left-side loops (roundhouse and switch-back sidings). Each roundhouse stall should be isolated, and I would isolate one of the turntable leads. This just gives you more control under DC. Even with DCC, roundhouse leads should probably be isolated.

On the switchback sidings, I would isolate each of the two sidings from the lead-in track. This will allow you to have two locos working the sidings and give you more 'parking' space for locos that are waiting for the lead-in track to clear.

You could also carry that thought over to the right-hand side of the layout, isolating a few of those sidings and definitely the run-around on the lead.

You can go as detailed as you like with isolating selected tracks. Remember, if you isolate the track and never turn it off, you are better than if you hadn't isolated it and need to now!

Darrell, insulatingly quiet...for now

this kinda makes scence but I have one question on the blocks that are indicated by the different colors where I have the arrow going from start to fini***here won't be any switches between the beggining of the switches on the 2 main lines all the way to the upper right where the mains come off the decline side is there a reason for the blocks that are indicated between those points or are they more for convenence or future use? I'm not quite understanding the purpose for those blocks .
Not that I don't appreciate the input more I don't understand...
[:)]

You could consider those extra blocks as more convenience than necessity. As I said earlier, much better to have and not need than to need and not have. It will allow for some future changes that you may consider and having the wiring in place will make the changes easier to adopt. As I said, more for convenience.

Darrell, conveniently quiet...for now

[wickman]

thanks kinda figured that as well as it'll stop any trains running in to the back end of each other if one block seperates them as Jeff had educated me on the roll of blocks
Thanks Lynn[:)]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman
I have one question on the blocks that are indicated by the different colors where I have the arrow going from start to fini***here won't be any switches between the beggining of the switches on the 2 main lines all the way to the upper right where the mains come off the decline side is there a reason for the blocks that are indicated between those points or are they more for convenence or future use? I'm not quite understanding the purpose for those blocks .

Two reasons. 1. You don't want the same block on both ends of the yard siding tracks. That way one train can be using both sides of the siding at the same time.
2. Even for reason 1 there are too many blocks. So the others are in case you decide at some time to cut in another siding (somewhere around where the green and aqua color tracks are side by side) and run two trains on the same main track loop. That would give you the potential for 4 mainline trains at once. This would also be good if you just wanted to add an additional cross over in there somewhere too.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman
I have one question on the blocks that are indicated by the different colors where I have the arrow going from start to fini***here won't be any switches between the beggining of the switches on the 2 main lines all the way to the upper right where the mains come off the decline side is there a reason for the blocks that are indicated between those points or are they more for convenence or future use? I'm not quite understanding the purpose for those blocks .

Two reasons. 1. You don't want the same block on both ends of the yard siding tracks. That way one train can be using both sides of the siding at the same time.

this is an interesting point can you explain that a bit more in say laymans terms so even I can understand it
Thanks Lynn

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman
1. You don't want the same block on both ends of the yard siding tracks. That way one train can be using both sides of the siding at the same time.

this is an interesting point can you explain that a bit more in say laymans terms so even I can understand it

[wickman]

well here's a revised version not a lot diff from last post . Thanks to B-17 ( Steve ) for his input and jeff for innitial block plan
LOL This is for those who have an appreciation for block control for multiple trains running at once. :D
And a guide line for explanation .
This may look complicated at first look, but for only 24 blocks, it gives a much more flexible use of the sidings by clever use of both Blocks and
turnouts to isolate two sections of track behind many turnouts. Study it carefully, and follow the “Power” along the tracks to the blue track breaks,
and you should see which Feed supplies which lines and what can be isolated
1 = Power Feed to TT
2 = Inner Track Block Feed
3 = Outer Track Block Feed
4 = Inner Track Block Feed
5 = Outer Track Block Feed
6 = Inner Track Block Feed
7 = Outer Track Block Feed
8 = Inner Track Block Feed
9 = Outer Track Block Feed
10 = Inner Track Feed
11 = Yard Block Feed
12 = Yard Block Feed
13 = Yard Block Feed
14 = Yard Block Feed
15 = Yard Block Feed
16 = Yard Block Feed
17 to 24 = Inner Yard and Sidings.

Notes
Unless the 5 sidings around the Turn Table receive power from the table when it lines up, they will also need block switches and power feeds.

Main Yard is split into 2 areas, Area A and B by track breaks. Area A is fed by the inner or outer line Feeds 2 & 3. By use of Block switches 11 to
16 and the turnouts leading into Area A, two locomotives can be held and Isolated on one yard track – One in area A and the other in Area B. In
area A, the turnouts will need to isolate the track as they turn against one direction. This will mean that one track will remain live. The only way to isolate both ends of all the yard tracks is with more blocks, switches and power feeds.

Power feed 17 supplies the power leading up to the Turn Table. Power supply 19 supplies area L leading towards feed 17 so two locos can be
stopped on this track or the track leading to feed 18.
Feed 18 supplies area I, and also into area J.

Area K has power feeds 20 & 21 so two locos can be stopped in the J & K area tracks.

Feed 19 supplies area C tracks up to break, where feed 23 supplies the other half of this loop, area D.

Feed 23 also supplies the passing loop in area F.

Feed 24 supplies area G sidings
I thought this was well worth posting.


:D
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[dgwinup]

Yes, it IS worth posting. You have done a lot of work on this and I note that you also followed a lot of the suggestions you received. Congratulations on your fine work.

I am assuming that your turnouts are all selective for power routing. That would allow you to have engine 'A' waiting on a siding while engine 'B' passes by on the other track. What turnouts are you using and will you power them for switching? If powered, what switch machines will you be using? I ask these questions because it can make a difference in how you wire your power feeds. For example, simply using the turnout to control power routing will mean that one leg MUST be powered at all time. This could affect your operational flexibility. If you use switch machines like Tortoise that have additional contacts, these contacts can be used to power the two diverging routes, but you will still have one route powered at all times. Additionally, there is the possibility of a short circuit depending on which way the power is fed through the turnout. An example of this is your 4 tracks in section A. Three of these tracks receive power from feed #3 through the turnouts in section A up to the track break. All 4 can also receive power from section B up to the track break, depending on how the turnouts in section B are aligned. On the outer track, section A will receive power from feed #3 and section B will receive power from feed #11. If the polarity is different on both tracks, a train trying to cross the track break can cause a short. Not too serious on DC, but potentially harmful on DCC.

24 block sections are a lot of blocks, but you have a lot of track to control. It might be to your advantage to use more conventional block wiring and not rely on the turnouts to control power routing.

Also look at how the power is fed. Print out a copy of your track plan with power feeds and draw a control panel with your block switches and turnout controls on it. Use small markers on the electrical switches to indicate which way the switch is oriented. Now pretend that you are running a train. See how difficult it is to run the train when you are NOT SURE if the power is coming from the feed or through the turnout and you are not sure if the power is for eastbound or westbound operation. Run this train through the whole layout and I think you will find that you will be constantly throwing turnouts and switching block feeds just to keep the train moving. Now try running TWO trains in opposite directions and see how difficult it is to keep track of your power routings.

I think you may want to isolate BOTH routes out of a turnout. In section A, this will add at least 3 blocks, but it will give you absolute control over EVERY track in that section. In section B, you already have the tracks isolated from each turnout. Sections C & D may need some additional block controls, too.

Take a look at isolating all your turnout routes and see if this will make it a better layout for you. I think your plan as drawn is sufficient for operating, and adding additional blocks will only increase the operational ability of your layout.

Keep up the good work you are doing. You have a great trackplan and you will have hours of fun building this layout and hours more fun operating it.

And keep posting your work. It is ALWAYS worth posting!

Darrell, electrically isolated, but quiet...for now

[wickman]

Thanks for even more input I would never have gotten as far as I have without all the great help I've recieved. All the turnouts are Atlas with switch machines so the turnouts are wired as well as the blocks are wired hopefully that makes scence I'm not really all that good with the RR lingual LOL ... but I'm learning I can just about talk train.The way the layout was blocked before had the blocks for each of the areas your talking about and if the way its setup now doesn't work for me I will go back to the other blocking way .
This is the original plan jeff came up with and was modified a bit more