Bench work???

[Kutter]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this whole form thing so stick with me here. I have decided to rebuild my train layout after going to a railroad show and realizing that I was not very happy with what I have done and the operation of my layout. So my question is...What sort of lumber should I be using for my bench work? Should I use 1x2 or 1x4? Is this strong enough??? I've used 2x4 in the past and found them too big. Could someone help me out here please???
Thanks the new guy!!!

[rrinker]

I used 1x4's, but I'm thinking of dropping down to 1x3 for the rest as the 1x4 was more than strong enough. I'd think 1x2 would be a bit on the light side. I am planning on staging underneath the main layout, so using 1x3, at least for the main deck, would improve clearance, while still being plenty strong to hold up the foam. 2x4, that's serious overkill, even for the legs. Since all I have around here in Home Depot, and they don't sell 2x2's, I used 2x3's for my legs, braced with 1x2. As I go around the basement, only the 'free' end of each section will get legs - like a Talgo train, one set of legs holds up the end of 2 sections. If I had a table saw I'd get 2x4's and rip them down to make my own 2x2's, but don't have a table saw.

--Randy

[IRONROOSTER]

I use 1x4's in my layout building. I build a grid with cross pieces on 12" centers. I use two 1x4's for each leg glued together lengthwise in an L shape. The top is 1/2" plywood. This is probably overkill, but it is very sturdy and I don't have to use any bracing. It's over 10 years old and I have had no problems with it.
Enjoy
Paul

[Big_Boy_4005]

1x4's are what I use. I weigh 325 pounds, and can stand on my benchwork. Just to keep things simple, I use 2x4's for the legs. The construction is simple frame, and I usually make rectangular sections up to 8' long, then add corner angles.

[dgwinup]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kutter

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this whole form thing so stick with me here. I have decided to rebuild my train layout after going to a railroad show and realizing that I was not very happy with what I have done and the operation of my layout. So my question is...What sort of lumber should I be using for my bench work? Should I use 1x2 or 1x4? Is this strong enough??? I've used 2x4 in the past and found them too big. Could someone help me out here please???
Thanks the new guy!!!

Hi, Kutter, welcome to the forum.

As you will soon learn, ask a question here and you will soon be inundated with answers and suggestions for doing the same thing ten different ways! You will have to decide which way seems best for you, but you won't lack for information.

How about some more information on your proposed layout? What scale you use can make a difference in the size of lumber you use. What layout plan you want can effect the size lumber to use.

A table top layout may dictate a different construction procedure than a shelf-type or around the wall style layout.

For myself, I have used 1x4 in a box grid pattern with plywood subroadbed, either in strips or in larger pieces for areas like yards. For my current small layout, I made use of L-girder construction, although I used 1x2 lumber screwed and glued to form the L-girders, topping that off with 2" foam for a solid base. Plenty strong enough for N scale and extremely light and portable.

I'll watch your post for more information of what you want in a layout and will offer more suggestions later.

Darrell, quiet...for now

[claycts]

Big boy, why not "L" girder? I am going to start on my benchwork after 3 years of planing and thought of using "L" girder. I would like to know your thoughts, I am 245#. To old to climb but will be leaning a lot.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

Big boy, why not "L" girder? I am going to start on my benchwork after 3 years of planing and thought of using "L" girder. I would like to know your thoughts, I am 245#. To old to climb but will be leaning a lot.

Never liked L girder, always felt it was too light weight. Another hangup was it used a lot of fasteners to create the L, as well as lesser dimensional lumber, including 1x2's and 2x2's. Tried it in an HO club many years ago.

One more problem with L girder, it doesn't travel well. I was able to salvage all of my lumber in each of my 3 moves. Some of it is 30 years old. L girder you use a chainsaw.

Keep in mind I do 3 rail O, and some of the newer engines can weigh 10 or more pounds. I also use 3/4" ply with supports every 24" or less. This may be overkill for HO, but there is one advantage to the thicker plywood, and that is smoother vertical transitions. You can't bend it as sharply as thinner material. Of course if you are careful, you can make smooth transitions with 1/2" too.

There is a section of my layout where I am using a center support system that is a little like L girder. The peninsula is 8' wide. The legs are set in 6" on both ends, but 7' is too wide for the 1x4. I installed a beam-like support made of 2x4's, for the 1x4's to rest on, then toe screwed them to it. The upper deck is supported in an interesting and unusual cantilever arrangement. You can see all of this pretty well in this photo.




If you really want heavy benchwork, try 1x6's. I was in a 2 rail O club, and they did a similar style to what I'm doing, only with 1x6. We always joked about the "dancing elephants"[:0][swg].

[TBat55]

I use 1x3 and 1x4. When formed into an L-shaped corner like for a leg, both sides are almost the same width.

Make sure you put leveling feet under each leg. Cheap leveler: T-nut plus a 2" PVC endcap with bolt (no wrench required). Better: furniture type nylon leveling feet.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TBat55

I use 1x3 and 1x4. When formed into an L-shaped corner like for a leg, both sides are almost the same width.

Make sure you put leveling feet under each leg. Cheap leveler: T-nut plus a 2" PVC endcap with bolt (no wrench required). Better: furniture type nylon leveling feet.

Hmmmm, sounds like a lot of extra effort and cost for very little benefit. I've tried the L shaped leg, and while they look nice and work fine, the 2x4 gets the job done.

Leveling feet are important for modules that are moved often. For the typical home layout, why not build it level, and forget it?

[MisterBeasley]

I built a 5 x 12 free-standing table. The main track level is only 38 inches high, because I have to clear a diagonal roof-line. It's also on casters so I can pull it out from the wall, or rotate it completely around to work on the back face, or just to get a different look for viewers. The 6 legs are 2x4's, the exterior frame is 1x4's, and the interior stringers are 1x3's. I used half-inch plywood gussets for the leg supports, and 1x2's for some diagonal cross-bracing. I use 2-inch foam for the layout base, no plywood.

This wood structure, even without the foam, is very light and very stiff. (I never intended to climb on it, and I've never tried that. One advantage of the 38-inch height is that I can reach every point easily from the edges.) After I built it, I took off the legs and carried the whole frame with one hand up to the train room.

[donhalshanks]

Success to your new layout! I have just finished the L-girder construction for my first two sections as outlined in Wescott's book and many other MR books, articles, and in this forum. It was easy, went just as described, and all the positives of the L-girder system are evident. I used 2x2 legs, 1x4 girders and joists, and 1x2 for the flange and leg braces. It was fast to build, painting the wood before starting (which I chose to do) took the most time. I would suggest that the method takes a minimal of fastners (dry wall screws) and even many to be used over again if removing the screws from the girder flanges after the glue drys. I also suggest it is a very solid solution using the minimal amount of wood. I can easily sit on it with no problem. This is my first layout, and building using the experience of many before me assured the success it has given me.

As FYI, while my sectons are 12' long, I used two 6' long 1x4s for the girders, and connected them end to end with wood side plates as described in the L-girder reading material. I'll also be making wiring connections in 6' sections to match. In this way, if I ever want to move it, I can unscrew the plates and legs, and move the layout in 6' sections.

Hal

[rrinker]

One thing L-girder is not, is too light weight. A girder will support more weight then comparable stick wood. That's just engineering.

But I don't like L-girder either. It uses WAY too much wood. It's also WAY too high - if you are considering double deck, or need space UNDER the layout for storage, L-girder severely impacts that. It was also said that l-girder took less carpentry skill. Than what? How bad do you have to be? I cut my benchwok with a hand saw. Measure, make a mark, draw a line with a square. Are all my pieces accurate to a few tenths? Certainly not - and it makes NO difference! If everything had to be that precise, I'd buy a CNC machine and take up machining as a hobby instead. My layout stands, it's not in dange of falling over, it doesn't wobble, and it's level. I might not be able to stand on it (the foam probably wouldn' hold - I could probably LAY on it though), but I CAN lean on it. I have no reason to EVER stand on it - it's only 2' wide and I can reach the ceiling over any part of it without occupying the same space. I HAVE walked against it, and banged my head a few times, and the layout doesn't move. So just how strong does this have to be?

--Randy

[pcarrell]

I used 1x4's for the outside framework, 1x3's for the the cross braces, and 1x2's for the risers. I model in N so if you are using a larger scale you might want to up the size of the risers for yours.

[dgwinup]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

Big boy, why not "L" girder? I am going to start on my benchwork after 3 years of planing and thought of using "L" girder. I would like to know your thoughts, I am 245#. To old to climb but will be leaning a lot.

Never liked L girder, always felt it was too light weight. Another hangup was it used a lot of fasteners to create the L, as well as lesser dimensional lumber, including 1x2's and 2x2's. Tried it in an HO club many years ago.

One more problem with L girder, it doesn't travel well. I was able to salvage all of my lumber in each of my 3 moves. Some of it is 30 years old. L girder you use a chainsaw.

Keep in mind I do 3 rail O, and some of the newer engines can weigh 10 or more pounds. I also use 3/4" ply with supports every 24" or less. This may be overkill for HO, but there is one advantage to the thicker plywood, and that is smoother vertical transitions. You can't bend it as sharply as thinner material. Of course if you are careful, you can make smooth transitions with 1/2" too.

There is a section of my layout where I am using a center support system that is a little like L girder. The peninsula is 8' wide. The legs are set in 6" on both ends, but 7' is too wide for the 1x4. I installed a beam-like support made of 2x4's, for the 1x4's to rest on, then toe screwed them to it. The upper deck is supported in an interesting and unusual cantilever arrangement. You can see all of this pretty well in this photo.




If you really want heavy benchwork, try 1x6's. I was in a 2 rail O club, and they did a similar style to what I'm doing, only with 1x6. We always joked about the "dancing elephants"[:0][swg].

Big Boy, I love your post!

3 rail O scale, huge layout, walk-on capabilities, probably earthquake-proof, too! From an N scalers point of view, you've engineered a layout comparable to Cheyenne Mountain! I love it! I get a mental image of a big guy with John Henry-type arms, swinging huge hammers and driving 10" spikes with a single blow! And N scale-me, delicately placing a microscopic spike with a pair of tweezers and a magnifying glass! LOL (Big Boy, I hope you have a sense of humor!)[:D]

N scale is so small and light, you could probably build a layout on laminated CARDBOARD! The differences between N scale and O scale are phenominal. What works for N scale would almost NEVER work for O scale.

So back to Kutter's question. Use what makes sense to you and what you are comfortable with. If your layout is going to be moved, the suggestion from TBat55 about leveling legs is very good. On the other hand, if the layout won't be moved, I think Big Boy is right - build it level and be done with it.

What you ultimately use will be dictated by the scale you model in and your skill level in your prefered construction methods. Over-engineering your layout base will not detract from your layout. Just like a house, your foundation is important to the longevity of your layout.

Keep us all posted on your progress. Your biggest problem in model railroading (and this forum) is sorting through all the excellent advise you will receive. Have fun!

Darrell, diminutively quiet...for now

[JCasey]

Hi Kutter, [#welcome]
While L girder is certainly an awesome technique for certain types of layouts, you never really said what type of layout you had in mind. I have offered up this cantilever benchwork idea before and it never seemed to be well received, but I still feel that it is a good benchwork technique for an "around the walls" type layout, and I figured it would give you another option to consider. It is simple, light weight, and super strong. I could walk on top of mine with no problem. Another advantage is that it gives you a lot of under bench storage shelf space. It uses 1 X 3 vertical and horizontals with 1 X 2 diagonal braces, and 1/2 " plywood on top. I got this concept from an article published by Lyle Strang on the MR web site.









Have fun, I hope this helps.
John

[dgwinup]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JCasey

Hi Kutter, [#welcome]
While L girder is certainly an awesome technique for certain types of layouts, you never really said what type of layout you had in mind. I have offered up this cantilever benchwork idea before and it never seemed to be well received, but I still feel that it is a good benchwork technique for an "around the walls" type layout, and I figured it would give you another option to consider. It is simple, light weight, and super strong. I could walk on top of mine with no problem. Another advantage is that it gives you a lot of under bench storage shelf space. It uses 1 X 3 vertical and horizontals with 1 X 2 diagonal braces, and 1/2 " plywood on top. I got this concept from an article published by Lyle Strang on the MR web site.









Have fun, I hope this helps.
John

Hello, Kutter, (Hello, John)

John's suggestion is good. An around the wall layout doesn't need a lot of benchwork. Angled brackets like John's mount to the wall and are very sturdy. They also accommodate different terrain. The wood used does not have to be large or heavy. John used 1x2 and 1/3's and it looks plenty sturdy.

You don't have to cover the angled brackets with plywood unless you want to. Brackets can be mounted at different heights for deeper scenery like rivers and canyons. There is a lot that can be done with this type of construction. Blue or pink foam can also be used as a table-top.

As I said, you will get lots of different opinions on this forum. Look them all over and give one or two a try. Don't forget, you can always mix construction styles, like using box-girder construction for a main table, angle brackets to support a long mainline around the walls and even cantilevered L-girder jutting out from the main table for a peninsula. There is no end of combinations that you can use. You will learn by doing, eventually deciding on what works best for you.

Have fun and keep us posted.

Darrell, quiet...for now

[joeh19012]

I'll weigh in with an opinion, but it's consistent with some of the others here.

I followed Linn Westcott's book on building L-girders. They went together easily for me using clamps, screws, and glue. I took the screws out after the glue dried. My L-girders are combinations of 1x4's and 1x2's for the flange. For simplicity, I used 2x4's for legs, but I suppose 2x3's would be good. My braces are either 1x3's or 1x2's. My legs are on top of carpeting, so I leveled the girders on the legs instead of using separate levelers.

Big Boy certainly has some sturdy benchwork, too, so I can't disagree with his methods. I used L-girder because I thought it did minimize the amount of wood needed to create a strong base for a permanent layout. I believe, though, that if you ever want to move the layout and you use a "pure" L-girder construction, you will need something like a chain saw or reciprocating saw to take it apart. Open grid variants work best for things you want to take apart.

If I were building a point-to-point or around the walls layout, though, I would definitely use a cantilever method with the supports anchored to wall studs. One of the benchwork books showed a cantilever using an L-girder to support the horizontal benchwork.

There. That's my 2 cents. I hope this adds in some way to what everyone else has said. Good luck. [8D]

[RMax1]

I have a free standing table that is just over 13 foot long 6 foot wide. It is made out of 2ft by 4ft sections that I can break apart and reconfigure as needed. I also have 1ft by 4ft extensions that I will use on occasion. The main table legs are godzilla 4x4's and the outside legs are 2x4's The table top frame is made of 2x4's. I wanted the layout to be able to rearranged when space was needed which happens around here frequently. I also need the layout to be extremely strong and moveable. The floor surface is not good for sliding so we pick the layout up using 8ft long 2x4's and move it around. Sometimes we have had to move it over 4 or 5 feet. It's easier to move this way than disassemble but it can be done if needed. I have had several configurations from various tables to a U shape with a drop down bridge and my work table in the middle.

RMax1

[dehusman]

I use open grid, because I have moved several times and have found it very "movable." L girder is very versitile but very "thick" as mentioned before. Open grid is less thick. A lot of it depends on your room and layout. Knee braces against permanent wall are very good, gives you beau coup open floor space, no legs. Feel free to combine as many types as you like to suit the situation. I have L girder at the end of a peninsula because that's what worked best.

Dave H.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup

Big Boy, I love your post!

3 rail O scale, huge layout, walk-on capabilities, probably earthquake-proof, too! From an N scalers point of view, you've engineered a layout comparable to Cheyenne Mountain! I love it! I get a mental image of a big guy with John Henry-type arms, swinging huge hammers and driving 10" spikes with a single blow! And N scale-me, delicately placing a microscopic spike with a pair of tweezers and a magnifying glass! LOL (Big Boy, I hope you have a sense of humor!)[:D]

N scale is so small and light, you could probably build a layout on laminated CARDBOARD! The differences between N scale and O scale are phenominal. What works for N scale would almost NEVER work for O scale.

So back to Kutter's question. Use what makes sense to you and what you are comfortable with. If your layout is going to be moved, the suggestion from TBat55 about leveling legs is very good. On the other hand, if the layout won't be moved, I think Big Boy is right - build it level and be done with it.

What you ultimately use will be dictated by the scale you model in and your skill level in your prefered construction methods. Over-engineering your layout base will not detract from your layout. Just like a house, your foundation is important to the longevity of your layout.

Keep us all posted on your progress. Your biggest problem in model railroading (and this forum) is sorting through all the excellent advise you will receive. Have fun!

Darrell, diminutively quiet...for now

Darrell, I have a great sense of humor. I got a real kick out of your response too.

I think it's safe to say that there are a number of different styles of benchwork, and different reasons for using them.

As far as my John Henry qualities go, I can drive an N scale box car with a single blow.[swg]



No actual box cars were harmed during the filmimg of this scene.

[nbrodar]

I use two types of benchwork. The free standing sections are open frames made from 1x4's with 2x2 legs. They are light enough for one person to move. They are also easily rearranged. Built more the 10 years ago, the frames are on their 4th layout. On my lastest layout, I started using backets along walls. As previously stated, this allows for a great deal of storage under the layout.

One note about material. A decade ago I used pine 1x4s and drywall screws. Today, with access to a woodshop and given the declining quality of lumber, I use 3/4" plywood, ripped to 3 3/4" and an air nailer.

Nick Brodar