steep grade

[Anonymous]

What is the steepest grade the Bachmann Gandy dancer can climb? What is the smallest radius it can turn? Thanks
This ties in with my runaway rail plans.

[selector]

I have one........and have never run it!!! Can you believe it? Anyway, it should be able to handle a fairly steep grade, probably better than 5% (I'll run mine asap to see). As for radius, how about 4"....or more. [:D]

Edit- Nope, I was wrong. It can barely handle 2%. A radius will probably reduce that figure.

[NZRMac]

Just tried mine, it's got no weight and it's only two wheel drive. I reckon it climbed mayby a 3% grade at the most.

Ken.

[Anonymous]

Those are disapointing numbers. I am hoping to get a short 10 to 15% after I get one. I am thinking of carving the body out of peuter to add extra weight.

[zigg72md]

Mine just climbed a 3% grade with little problem. I would guess that 4-5% would be max though.

Btw it my layout has a 3% grade on a curve(ie a tight over-under figure 8)

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know of any doodle bugs/ speeders/ rail cars/ anything, that can handle steep grades?

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by machinate
Those are disapointing numbers. I am hoping to get a short 10 to 15% after I get one. I am thinking of carving the body out of peuter to add extra weight.

10 to 15% ?!?!?!? Are you dreaming ?!?!?! To climb a grade that steep you'd better make it a cog railway, or a funicular, or a cable-car.

I don't know of any regular trains capable of even a short 10 to 15% grade. H*ll ! Even trucks struggle to make it up a 15% grade on a highway.

[Anonymous]

I am confident I can make it happen.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by machinate

I am confident I can make it happen.

You're daydreaming! Such steep grades far exceed the limits of the coefficient of friction for HO wheels and track. It would be surprising to exceed 4 degrees, especially with a no-weight item such as the Gandydancer.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

QUOTE: Originally posted by machinate
Those are disapointing numbers. I am hoping to get a short 10 to 15% after I get one. I am thinking of carving the body out of peuter to add extra weight.

10 to 15% ?!?!?!? Are you dreaming ?!?!?! To climb a grade that steep you'd better make it a cog railway, or a funicular, or a cable-car.

I don't know of any regular trains capable of even a short 10 to 15% grade. H*ll ! Even trucks struggle to make it up a 15% grade on a highway.

I know of two grades in excess of 15% There is one in vermont 2 miles long straight up at 18% and a coal road that pushed 24%

The vermont grade took me max HP at lowest gear and less than walking speed at 40 ton. The cooling down took approx 2 hours. I did not break down but wondered which would win first gravity or american engineers at CAT.

The coal road was quite dangerous, it was vicious and short and you did not dare stop because there was forces strong enough to pull you off the road and over the mountain.

My Gandy Dancer never did much. 4 Inches is about the minimum and it would not handle much of a grade. After close to 30 years on the shelf I doubt it will run.

[pcarrell]

I have been watching this thread with intrest. I don't model HO, but prefer small steam in N scale. I also prefer mountinous scenery. That means that I have some things in common (low weight being the main one) with machinate in his quest for traction.

I don't think that we should discourage him in his endevors for more traction. After all, thats how the traction tire was invented. Someone needed more traction then the metal wheels would offer by themselves and an idea formed and was tried. Now many people couldn't operate their layouts without them. I'm betting that this problem was not solved on the first try, but thats the kind of ingenuity that we normally strive for.

Instead, I think that we should point out the obstacles that he is facing and offer ideas to counter those things, if we have any.

I would like to congratulate our fellow modeler on his tenaciousness in his ideas. I, for one, hope he solves his problem and shares it with all of us so that we might all benefit from his expirience.

OK, now for my two cents (if I haven't already spent them).

Machinate, you have a steep battle in front of you (pun intended). Traction tires are a must for those kinds of grades I would think. Furthermore, you might see if there is some chemical or something that might soften or increase the stickiness of the rubber on the tire. I'd see about buying a few replacement tires for exparimentation purposes, know what I mean? They are cheap.

I'd also think about some way of increasing the tractive effort of the track itself. I've heard of some who have used a file lightly across the rails to give them some "bite", but this usually results in the track picking up dirt at an alarming rate and therefore needing cleaned VERY often. I've even heard of some who went a step further and did the same to the loco wheels, with the same results. The traction was definately up, but the cleaning schedule was too. I don't know if maybe there is some chemical (mag wheel polish?) that would cut down on the buildup of dirt, but it might be worth exploring.

Also, another thing that has not been mentioned are the power trucks shown on page 10 in the Sept. MRR. Kind of expensive, but it might be a better starting point.

These might spark some ideas for you. If you find a way to do this thing, let us know.

Best of luck, I'll be rooting for you!

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

QUOTE: Originally posted by machinate
Those are disapointing numbers. I am hoping to get a short 10 to 15% after I get one. I am thinking of carving the body out of peuter to add extra weight.

10 to 15% ?!?!?!? Are you dreaming ?!?!?! To climb a grade that steep you'd better make it a cog railway, or a funicular, or a cable-car.

I don't know of any regular trains capable of even a short 10 to 15% grade. H*ll ! Even trucks struggle to make it up a 15% grade on a highway.

I know of two grades in excess of 15% There is one in vermont 2 miles long straight up at 18% and a coal road that pushed 24%

The vermont grade took me max HP at lowest gear and less than walking speed at 40 ton. The cooling down took approx 2 hours. I did not break down but wondered which would win first gravity or american engineers at CAT.

The coal road was quite dangerous, it was vicious and short and you did not dare stop because there was forces strong enough to pull you off the road and over the mountain.

My Gandy Dancer never did much. 4 Inches is about the minimum and it would not handle much of a grade. After close to 30 years on the shelf I doubt it will run.

HighIron2003ar,

Are you talking about roads or railroads ?

Generally speaking, highway grades are kept low so as to keep traffic moving at higher speeds. Other roads can often have steeper grades; but then the traffic is moving at lower speed. Tractor-trailer trucks do have the power to deal with steep grades; but the steeper the grade, the slower they go.

---

Pcarrell,

I'm not saying its impossible. Just not very likely without special construction like a cog-railway or cable-car. Even with additional weight, its highly likely the locomotive will not have enough traction to remain stationary on the tracks, let alone pull itself (and a string of cars) up the grade. She'll probably go sliding down the tracks like a log down a chute at a sawmill. Pray there are no curves at the bottom.

[Anonymous]

I have been experimenting with magnetic track. So far I have acomplished 9% with the gandy. IT WILL BE DONE! (says the crazy guy). I am also trying a chain lift/ helper. The lift moves at the same speed as the car, grabing it seemlessly and helping it up. My layout is going to be 80% down hill. 10% of the up is visible and the other 10 brings the car back to the top under the layout. I have 5 downs that are 10 to 15%. 2 of the downs are 32in long at 10%. The ups are no more than 4% FOR NOW. Thanks pcarrell for having faith in my cause. I will keep trying until I am happy.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by machinate

I have been experimenting with magnetic track. So far I have acomplished 9% with the gandy. IT WILL BE DONE! (says the crazy guy). .

Really. Would you explain to the rest of us in detail how you are establishing a magnetic field in nickel silver or brass rail? Or is this accomplished via a method other than using the track itself to create the field?

CNJ831

[pcarrell]

machinate,

No problem. Isn't a challenge great for getting the creative juices flowing? Like the old saying goes "Necessity is the mother of invention".

So,...when you get some of the bugs worked out you simply must let us know how you did it. Pics would be good too. Those are some imressive grades to say the least! I'd love to take a peek.

Speaking of bugs, if you run into any particularly tough ones how 'bout letting us take a whack at it? Just tell us about it and we'll put our heads together.

By the way,.....it sounds like you are using a VERY novel approach to solve your problems. Hats off!



chateauricher,

I couldn't agee more! Special solutions are definately called for in this instance.

Fortunately, our friend here has an extra dose of inginuity coursing through his veins!

I'm with you on the curves thing though.

I just keep picturing the "devils shingles" from the Mt. Washington (I think it was) cog railway. That had to be a hairy knuckled ride!

[Anonymous]

I've tested my SPectrum shay at 8%, and it climed it with three loaded sheleton cars. Pulling or pushing. Steepest grade that's going to be on my layout is 6.1%. There are some out there that will pull grades.

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by machinate

I am confident I can make it happen.

You're daydreaming! Such steep grades far exceed the limits of the coefficient of friction for HO wheels and track. It would be surprising to exceed 4 degrees, especially with a no-weight item such as the Gandydancer.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

I used a magnetic stip layed flay on the track just to keep the car tight on the track. Next i am going to build a section that helps pu***he car by placing magnets at an angle pushing against magnets on the car. I will post some pics of my progress soon. I am 50% done with a small layout im building for my newborn. After that I am full time with my search for the top.

[ghonz711]

[:I] im not sure if this is real... but i saw an article in the MRR about a magnetic field thing that kept trains on the track upside down... but if this was a total joke... i certainly didn't see it. lol... it's in the april eddition of MRR but they've played us april fools joke before, why can't they do it agin. [:I]

[Anonymous]

ghonz711. What year was that?

[GMTRacing]

ghonz711 - the article this year was in fact an April fools joke.
machinate - good luck with your developments. the chain idea sounds good, and the magnetic strip under the car sounds promising as well. traction tires in different compounds are worth a look - there are O-ring catalogs out there (Parker o-rings for one, C-R is another) that list multiple compounds for the same size. Just remember, the softer the compound, the more often the track will need cleaning.
I'm not sure about the angled magnet thing as it seems the force repelling up will be equalled by the force of the next magnet in the opposite direction. I also liked the idea of using a Shay or other low geared logging engine, and the more drive wheels the better. You could also glue a strip of steel to the bottom of the car to help attract the car to the magnet. As long as the force of gravity doesn't exceed the force required to climb, you can progress. good luck, J.R.