Question about direction

[zigg72md]

Allow me to apologize up front for the stupidity of this question.

I was evaluating one of the layout designs on this forum when it occured to me. Is there a standard direction for layouts. Now I read the NMRA stadards as far as polarity. However I'm asking a more simple question.

Do trains on an oval run clock-wise, counter-clockwise, or either depending on preference? If its preference then how does one tell which direction a designer has in mind?

Also if it depends then how about a poll to see which is more popular and why?

[SpaceMouse]

Trains run in both directions, just like in real life. Now some people design layouts to run trains in circles just to watch them run. My observation is that most run clockwise. But there is no rule that I know of.

[MisterBeasley]

My rule has always been to run the trains in the direction where I get the fewest derailments [:D]

[selector]

Gents, I think this is in reference to recent appraisals of layout plans posted for comment. Some of you have replied that it seems as if the trains will be running in one direction all the time due to the configuration or the orientation of turnouts and the ensuing track spurs, sidings, etc. I believe this is what the question refers to.

[Anonymous]

There is no standard direction. In a layout design there may be a preferred direction, based on the orientaion of spurs, etc. Some designs have have a reverse section that only works one way, so eventually every train is going the same direction.

[zigg72md]

You are basically correct selector. It seems that people "know" which direction the designer is running the trains and I was just checking to make sure I'm not missing something. Because I can never tell,

[ndbprr]

Train direction is based on a couple factors. In a small loop you can only run clockwise or counterclockwise and most have a "feel" to them as to which way in the best way. The "feel" is based on the sidings and backing into them for the most part and scenery. Personally I always think in a counterclockwise trip. never really thought about why. As a layout progresses and becomes bigger and more realsitic (hopefully!) most people try to operate from one town to another or an off layout staging yard onto the layout so the roundy round thing is not a problem. It is more of an out and back type of thing if that makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Counter-clockwise on an oval makes sense to me because if the tracks were side-by-side, the flow of the trains would be the same as the flow of regular traffic in America. I did some studying on this a while back and had my suspicions confirmed: while really you can run either way, locomotive traffic is patterned after regular traffic; you drive on the right-hand side of the road. So running counter-clockwise on an oval just made more sense to me.

Now if I were modelling any non north american country that got its start in motive power under the rule of the British empire, things would be quite the opposite.

[selector]

Well, to jump back in, ndbprr has responded well, to my way of thinking. First, despite what happens in the real world, and despite my best attempts at fine tuning them, the orientation of switches affects rail traffic on my layout. At least, it did to a great degree at first, and as I filed points and smoothed rough spots, my trains eventually ran well through the switches in either direction.....but as I said, not at first. Accordingly, if I am a typical example, modelers will preferentially gravitate to (learn that) runnning trains in the direction that confronts their trains with the fewest problems. As a rule, that is entering at the wye-end of a turnout and moving over and through the points. Until they are well beaten into submission, turnouts will cause more derailments the other way through.

Also, if you have no passing track, runarounds, or staging, (take your hand down, Crandell) you will have to leave spurs the same way you entered. So, unless you like 'fiddling' and using the five-fingered crane to keep turning your locos and placing them at the head of the train, depending on direction of travel, you will default to running your trains in the same direction on your main day after day after day after....[:-^][zzz]

[dehusman]

If your railroad won't operate equally well in both directions then you have track problems. The way I test track is is to shove a train through the trackage at normal speed It should be able to handle shoving as well as pulling.

There is no set direction to operate. Only the most beginer layouts are set up to operate in one direction only.

Dave H.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zigg72md
Do trains on an oval run clock-wise, counter-clockwise, or either depending on preference? If its preference then how does one tell which direction a designer has in mind?

Our club layout was originally designed so that when you are facing any track from the operation area, West is to the left and East is to the right. That would make clockwise - eastbound. For non-scheduled trains of the same class, westbound have the right-of-way because that is "uphill".

Since we choose east-west as our primary direction, on our time-table northbound trains are listed as east bound.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector


Also, if you have no passing track, runarounds, or staging, (take your hand down, Crandell) you will have to leave spurs the same way you entered. So, unless you like 'fiddling' and using the five-fingered crane to keep turning your locos and placing them at the head of the train, depending on direction of travel, you will default to running your trains in the same direction on your main day after day after day after....[:-^][zzz]

[:D][:D][:D] Not if you have a turntable[:D][:D][:D]

[selector]

I have a turntable, Harv, but that only turns the loco. The train it left to get to the table is still facing one direction in 1950's steam and caboose layouts.

Can you say, "Plan better next time?" [banghead]

[NZRMac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

I have a turntable, Harv, but that only turns the loco. The train it left to get to the table is still facing one direction in 1950's steam and caboose layouts.

Can you say, "Plan better next time?" [banghead]

I feel the word 'extension' coming on!![:D][:D] Or mayby that should be rebuild?[:D][:D]

Ken.[swg][swg]

[Anonymous]

Crandell, You are right, I wasn't thinking about the train left behind, I'll take 10 lashes over the head with a wet caboose. (and "GULP" "Plan better next time")

[Anonymous]

I run my trains coutner-clockwise, and I don't know why. I think it is what Actionplant described, because it just doesn't "feel" right running it the other-way. I mean, I have a bit of a track problem running it counter-clock wise (compared to clockwise having no problems), but I still run it this way because it seems better, and 'feels" right.

[selector]

Yeah, Ken and Harv, I fear I will have to do some really creative shuffling this winter to put things right. I had already considered and extension, and will very likely put it in. Now, if I 'plan better' this time, I can salvage this layout and keep it for at least three or four years. Wife will have a fit if I do another layout inside of a year. [sigh]

[Anonymous]

As mentioned here earlier, train traffic in the US is the same as car traffic as far as
direction is concerned. If you have a double loop, trains on the outer loop should
run counter-clockwise, and clockwise on the inner loop.
I guess it doesn't matter with a single loop, but I still run trains mostly counter-clockwise, so they run from left to right on the tracks closest to me.
That probably has to do with how we experience traffic every day. The other
way around just doesn't feel "right"..

[leighant]

On SINGLE track lines, trains generally run in EITHER direction, depending on whether they are coming or going. I tried to find a railroad in your neighborhood on a map-- no railroads shown in Saint Leonard, and nearest I could find was Conrail through the towns of St. Charles and Mattawoman. I followed that track down in a southerly direction until it ended in what looked like a reverse loop near Newberg. I know that reverse loops are often used on the modern prototype for loading and unloading unit coal trains- perhaps there is a big coal burning power plant at Newberg that received unit coal trains. Or since it is near a river, it may be a coal shipping point where coal trains offload to ship or barge. The line I found near St. Charles and Mattawoman went north to connect to what appeared to be a more major through rail line.
So if you looked at the area around St. Charles, you would be loaded coal trains going south and empty coal trains going north. Trains going in either direction-- but loaded one way, empty the other.

The real railroad runs more or less straight from one place to another for miles and mile, but model layouts are limited to the size of a room... unless they make an oval and gain distance by going around it a number of times...

You might model the entire branch from the unit train unloading loop to the mainline connection (where a hidden or disguised reverse loop turns the train.) You might actually load the train at one end and unload it at the other. The train could run loaded one direction, empty the other. If it goes around the room, clockwise might be southbound and counterclockwise northbound. Could be either way. But it would be alot of trouble to load and unload.

Since you probably don't have a room big enough to model 35 or 20 of even 10 scale miles of track, you might consider modeling just a mile or two out of the middle of this line, and let the trains disappear someplace hidden after they pass through the scene. With a 2-track hidden staging, you could have one train set up loaded pointed a clockwise direction and another train set up empty point a counterclockwise direction. Then you could run the railroad as if there are a number of trains going loaded clockwise to be returned empty counterclockwise. Layout runs both directions.

DOUBLE TRACK is like the two sides of an Interstate Highway. Each side is one way. With the pair of tracks, you have two-way traffic along the railroad, or around the room on a layout, even though each individual track has a normal one-way direction. Of course trains can back up to back into an industry spur- which is NOT a good idea on the Interstate. In general, for an automobile to go back the other direction on the interstate, the auto gets off the main road and goes through a cloverleaf interchange or turns under the main lanes on a service road. And this is the way a train might change directions on a double track layout, with a reverse loop. (The reverse loop from one one-way track to another allows turning on the 2-rail model layout without being concerned with polarity wiring. Real railroads don't have to worry about polarity and then can cross over to "wrong way main", or run a locomotive around from one end of train to the other to change directions.)

One special case where trains run all one-direction on single track was mentioned by John Armstrong, I believe in [i[]Track Planning for Realistic Operation[/i]. On the Santa Fe- Burlington joint line in Colorado, two single track railroads that were more or less parallel, running between the same end points but on different alignments a mile or more apart, were run as if they constituted a double track railroad by running one line or direction. That would be like two one-way streets in a city a block apart. They make up a system that runs two directions but you can only see one direction at a time. If you built a model layout that showed ONLY one of the pairs of tracks, it could realistically be a one-way railroad.

Other than these considerations, there is no general convention or preference for running one direction or another. I would imagine most experienced operators on single-track layouts would prefer running in BOTH directions about equally.

Does this answer your question in over-wordy detail?

[scubaterry]

I have a dual mainline. I designed the outside line as the westbound (CCW) and the inside line the eastbound (CW). The trains run very well in those directions but whenever I put particularly my steam engines going backwards (east on the west bound etc) I have problems at some of the turnouts. SO I just keep traffic going in the correct direction and pretend the track is fine. Someday I will get around to fine tuning the turnouts.
Terry

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by actionplant

Counter-clockwise on an oval makes sense to me because if the tracks were side-by-side, the flow of the trains would be the same as the flow of regular traffic in America. I did some studying on this a while back and had my suspicions confirmed: while really you can run either way, locomotive traffic is patterned after regular traffic; you drive on the right-hand side of the road. So running counter-clockwise on an oval just made more sense to me.

Now if I were modelling any non north american country that got its start in motive power under the rule of the British empire, things would be quite the opposite.

I don't know about U.S. railroad practices but in Canada the Canadian Pacific has sections where left hand running is practiced to give the right hand sitting engineer maximum visibility on difficult winding and walled stretches.

Also, during the days of steam in the UK some railways had right hand running and left hand sitting engineers for the same reason.

Don't know what the case is today. I'm sure other sharp shooters will leap in with details or corrections.
[:)]

[zigg72md]

Thank you all for the input. I feel less stupid now. Being fairly new to the layout design part of the hooby(I was a strictly oval around the Christmas tree kind of guy) I thought there was something I was missing.

To leighant I must say you did answer my question and I apologize for not specifying that I am not(yet?) much into prototypical running. Need to get the just running down first. As for the CSX line you refer to, It is a coal fired power plant at Newburg, and if you look again there is a spur that runs from Brandywine east to a second coal plant. There is also the rare general frieght train that one day I will figue out.

For any and all who like you can go to this web site (that I don't run and know little about who does) that will map the region out for you.

http://www.pacerfarm.org/wta.htm

I figure by the end of next year I will be railfanning the Herbert secondary on a weekly basis...lol .... and my layout will have an at least 15 car CSX coal train.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by selector
Wife will have a fit if I do another layout inside of a year. [sigh]

Crandell, Just walk away mumbling under your breath "I could be hanging out in some bar and chasing the ladies."

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