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Layout Plan Mark II

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Layout Plan Mark II
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 8:45 PM
Hey Ladies and Gents,

Here is where I'm at on my track plan Tested it out and worked it over, would you do me the honor of looking it over and telling me what you think? I could use all the help I can get. Feel free to tear it down. flame it up, and nitpick it to heck and back... [tup] Looking forward to any and all criticism, suggests etc.


(Well now wouldn't posting the darned pic help???[banghead] )


Thank you all so much in advance.

Coyote
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Posted by selector on Monday, August 15, 2005 9:05 PM
Looks okay to me, but I wonder what you are doing with that crossover series at the bottom. You can't park anything between the upper track turnouts if you wanted to use that as a runaround.

Looks like lots of industrial possibilities and room for a maintenance yard, etc. Lots of 'running' main, too.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 9:22 PM
Must be nice to have that much $#@!&!! space.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 10:00 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by GearDrivenSteam

Must be nice to have that much $#@!&!! space.


Gear,

It will be nice when I have the space, first a full clean and converstion has to be done on the Garage.. new garage door, seal and carpet the floor, add a AC unit, dehumidifier, air cleaner, electrical work to add more outlets and lighting...

I figure It'll be around between 2 and 3 grand and take a year to a year and a half... [:p] hrmmm then again maybe its not nice [:D]
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Posted by egmurphy on Monday, August 15, 2005 10:04 PM
Maybe I missed it in earlier incarnations and posts of the track plan, but should we assume that your concept is long trains and continual running, as opposed to a lot of switching?

One thing that would make it easier to analyze the layout would be a clearer indication of the benchwork location/size. This is especially important when looking at access reach, etc.

Also, if we assume that the left and bottom edges are against the wall (?) we'd need some idea of general scenery ideas, at least in terms of tunnels or other hidden track, again with the idea of looking at potential access issues.

I'm not clear about the use/intent of the small passing sidings (if that's what they are) located on the right side (3 squares left and 4 squares up from the words "unfinished yard".

I suppose that if I had that much space I'd be tempted to try to put in a good engine service facility, but that's just my personal preference. I don't see anything that looks like that on your plan.

I'm assuming (again) HO? If so, then take a close look at all your curve radii. You have a few that look to be less than 24". Again, with all that room it would be a shame to have 24" minimum radii.

If your software permits, you might want to consider putting coordinates on the grid (numbers across the top, letters down the side) to make it easier to point out the location of any questionnable items.

Looks like a great layout. I'm jealous.

Ed
The Rail Images Page of Ed Murphy "If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion and avoid the people, you might better stay home." - James Michener
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 10:16 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by egmurphy

Maybe I missed it in earlier incarnations and posts of the track plan, but should we assume that your concept is long trains and continual running, as opposed to a lot of switching?

One thing that would make it easier to analyze the layout would be a clearer indication of the benchwork location/size. This is especially important when looking at access reach, etc.

Also, if we assume that the left and bottom edges are against the wall (?) we'd need some idea of general scenery ideas, at least in terms of tunnels or other hidden track, again with the idea of looking at potential access issues.

I'm not clear about the use/intent of the small passing sidings (if that's what they are) located on the right side (3 squares left and 4 squares up from the words "unfinished yard".

I suppose that if I had that much space I'd be tempted to try to put in a good engine service facility, but that's just my personal preference. I don't see anything that looks like that on your plan.

I'm assuming (again) HO? If so, then take a close look at all your curve radii. You have a few that look to be less than 24". Again, with all that room it would be a shame to have 24" minimum radii.

If your software permits, you might want to consider putting coordinates on the grid (numbers across the top, letters down the side) to make it easier to point out the location of any questionnable items.

Looks like a great layout. I'm jealous.

Ed


Ed,

Lots of good questions and points.. let me see if I can answer any of them. [:)]

Yes Sir the layout will be HO Scale. AT&SF lines between Flagstaff, Arizona and Albuquerque, New Mexico between 1954 and 1955 running the Super Chief as the primary train, with a lot of good main line running over more serious switching (the truth being that I know little of how to even begin to make decent yards, but I'm trying to learn [;)] )

The layout is against the left hand wall and also the bottom wall, although their is a needed 5" space between wall and layout do to clearance for the garage door's (my enemy) roller frame.

The Curve radii are all 26" for outer curves and 24" for inner curves all other curves (mostly smaller pieces) are even larger.


I will go back and put in general beanchwork areas and a letter-number grid and repost...

and by the way.. thank you!
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 10:19 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Looks okay to me, but I wonder what you are doing with that crossover series at the bottom. You can't park anything between the upper track turnouts if you wanted to use that as a runaround.

Looks like lots of industrial possibilities and room for a maintenance yard, etc. Lots of 'running' main, too.


Selector,

To tell you the truth Sir I put it there so trains could change the direction they were headed, because I didnt know a better way and to bring trains from the back end track onto the forward main of the loop for presentation... it may be a foolish item.

Thank you.

Coyote
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 10:40 PM
Based on some of Ed's suggestion I have gone in and put in a very rough benchwork edge, this is not the final version just something to show so basic edges, and added a letter-number grid to help...


here it is




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Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, August 15, 2005 11:34 PM
I was reading this last night. It is from the July 2003 MR and is a flashback to March 1944, an editorial by Frank Taylor.

"With a Purpose

To design an interesting railroad is difficult, Most of become aware of this after our system is in operation for a short time. When the novelty of running trains over newly laid track wears off, we realize that our layout isn't just what it should be. And even after some of the trackwork is changed, we become bored.

The trouble is, we are not accomplishing a thing by running our trains. To make the model railroad operation interesting we should design our railroad with a purpose in mind--that of providing rail transportation to various factories, farms, terminals and industries in general. We should forget about our preference for an oval track, or a water-wing pattern for a single or multi-track main lines, because none of these features in themselves will keep us enthralled. Instead, we should build our pike just as our country was developed. Before we decide out track pattern we should determine what kinds of industry we intend to serve and where they should be located.

With these plotted on our plan, it is evident that rail service is needed and the track pattern automatically suggests itself. We see there is a definite need for a siding to our lumber yard; another for the bulk oil warehouse. A passing siding between Eton and Mellsville will facilitate freight and passenger moves; yards and roundhouse near the town of Aetna seem logical. In this way our layout design takes form. Every track is located for the purpose of providing the transportation required by conditions.

Next consideration is service. Whether it be freight or passenger transportation, we must consider the time element, which is the essence of service.

A clock should be regeared to run 10 to 12 times faster than normal. With this speeded-up timepiece on hand, we can design a series of realistic schedules which will show runs figured in fractions of hours instead of the actual fractions of minutes that elapse. Each schedule should be on a separate chard and each should provide plenty of operations to be handled ins a definite length of time. This is kind of model railroad being designed by the Montreal Model Railroad Club. The businesses and industries have been plotted and each section of track and time schedule will serve a definite purpose. Membership should never fall off because the railroad lacks interest.--Frank Taylor"

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 15, 2005 11:46 PM
SpaceMouse,
That is quite a statement and well put... stepping back and looking at from that perspective.. I am left with two things:
1. The idea that I am wanting to run a passanger line, with a possibility of some freight action as well.. which would probably have to be the bringing of already cut and readied wood in Flagstaff.
and
2. A very eneasy and empty sensation, the one one gets when asked a question that you not only don't know but have no idea where or how to get the answer..

That second feeling is a warning bell for me that perhaps I need to go back and research more on the AT&SF line in that area..

This layout started, and I sincerely wi***o keep, around route 66, which I have invisioned as running throughout the layout here and there and in long stretches.. the fact is thart in retrospect as I write.. I have the feeling that the editorial talked about only I have it with the Highway.. I see it where it needs to go what it does stop offs, scenic sights, hotels, motels, etc.. [%-)] which leaves me more than confused [:)] did I go at this all backasswards?


Coyote




QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I was reading this last night. It is from the July 2003 MR and is a flashback to March 1944, an editorial by Frank Taylor.

"With a Purpose

To design an interesting railroad is difficult, Most of become aware of this after our system is in operation for a short time. When the novelty of running trains over newly laid track wears off, we realize that our layout isn't just what it should be. And even after some of the trackwork is changed, we become bored.

The trouble is, we are not accomplishing a thing by running our trains. To make the model railroad operation interesting we should design our railroad with a purpose in mind--that of providing rail transportation to various factories, farms, terminals and industries in general. We should forget about our preference for an oval track, or a water-wing pattern for a single or multi-track main lines, because none of these features in themselves will keep us enthralled. Instead, we should build our pike just as our country was developed. Before we decide out track pattern we should determine what kinds of industry we intend to serve and where they should be located.

With these plotted on our plan, it is evident that rail service is needed and the track pattern automatically suggests itself. We see there is a definite need for a siding to our lumber yard; another for the bulk oil warehouse. A passing siding between Eton and Mellsville will facilitate freight and passenger moves; yards and roundhouse near the town of Aetna seem logical. In this way our layout design takes form. Every track is located for the purpose of providing the transportation required by conditions.

Next consideration is service. Whether it be freight or passenger transportation, we must consider the time element, which is the essence of service.

A clock should be regeared to run 10 to 12 times faster than normal. With this speeded-up timepiece on hand, we can design a series of realistic schedules which will show runs figured in fractions of hours instead of the actual fractions of minutes that elapse. Each schedule should be on a separate chard and each should provide plenty of operations to be handled ins a definite length of time. This is kind of model railroad being designed by the Montreal Model Railroad Club. The businesses and industries have been plotted and each section of track and time schedule will serve a definite purpose. Membership should never fall off because the railroad lacks interest.--Frank Taylor"
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:04 AM
The thing is, I know exactly how you feel because someone did the same thing to me. I knew I wanted to model a lumber operation in the redwoods and I wanted the era in the 1890's. I started researching and found there were no railroads in that part of the country that did what I wanted. Then I found the California Western that happened to go from the town I was born, Fort Bragg 40 miles to Willits. I found that they completed a line through to the newly formed Northwestern Pacific in 1912 and the NWP was completed in 1914. I chose as the year I was modeling because a certain bridge I wanted to model was completed that year.

After that, the design flew together and everything had purpose. When I design a siding or runaround, I know what it is for and why it is absolutely necessary. Oh, I still gets lots of help from the guys here, but the purpose guides all decisions.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:17 AM
Well said, and thank you.
It does give me a track, no pun intended, to follow... I need to go back and see how the Highway (route 66) and the line "interacted", if that makes any sense at all.. it does to me right now, at least, I'm just not sure how to express it..

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

The thing is, I know exactly how you feel because someone did the same thing to me. I knew I wanted to model a lumber operation in the redwoods and I wanted the era in the 1890's. I started researching and found there were no railroads in that part of the country that did what I wanted. Then I found the California Western that happened to go from the town I was born, Fort Bragg 40 miles to Willits. I found that they completed a line through to the newly formed Northwestern Pacific in 1912 and the NWP was completed in 1914. I chose as the year I was modeling because a certain bridge I wanted to model was completed that year.

After that, the design flew together and everything had purpose. When I design a siding or runaround, I know what it is for and why it is absolutely necessary. Oh, I still gets lots of help from the guys here, but the purpose guides all decisions.
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Posted by ereimer on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:30 AM
given the time you say it's going to take you to get the garage ready for the layout you have plenty of time to refine your track plans . it looks like you're off to a very good start

here's a book you may be interested in
http://www.goldenspike.us/si/SP106.html
it covers the construction of the arizona ATSF line and has some info on the super chief . most of the info is pre 1910 with a couple of chapters on the era you're modelling , so you may want to see if it's available through the library rather than ordering it . if you have any specific questions i have to book and will be happy to answer them for you
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:37 AM
ereimer,

good point. I usually found the books I wanted and then, ordered them through interlibrary loan. It usually takes about 7-10 days to get the book and if they are really good, I scan them.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:23 AM
ereimer,
Thanks, I'm sure I'll bug you for any and all maps I can get my hands on in Arizona and New Mexico. [:D]

I ecently picked up Lloyd E. Stagner's: Santa Fe Facilities (Volume 1 Transcontinental Route Chicago - Los Angeles, Patrick Dorin's: Super Chief and El Capitan (1935-1971) and of course the late great John Armstrong's: Track Planning for Realistic Operation.

All have been a great help to me, particularly Mr. Armstrong's seminal work.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

given the time you say it's going to take you to get the garage ready for the layout you have plenty of time to refine your track plans . it looks like you're off to a very good start

here's a book you may be interested in
http://www.goldenspike.us/si/SP106.html
it covers the construction of the arizona ATSF line and has some info on the super chief . most of the info is pre 1910 with a couple of chapters on the era you're modelling , so you may want to see if it's available through the library rather than ordering it . if you have any specific questions i have to book and will be happy to answer them for you
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Posted by CBQ_Guy on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:04 PM
Here's the original Coyote layout:

http://home.att.net/~clearpix/index.htm

and . . .

http://www.theramp.net/brantner/index.htm
"Paul [Kossart] - The CB&Q Guy" [In Illinois] ~ Modeling the CB&Q and its fictional 'Illiniwek River-Subdivision-Branch Line' in the 1960's. ~
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:25 PM
[:0] Holy..... ! I had -NO- idea such was out there at all *blinks*... I'll have to take a look at this.. thank you CBQ!

A strange case of parallel evolution, Captian!

QUOTE: Originally posted by CBQ_Guy

Here's the original Coyote layout:

http://home.att.net/~clearpix/index.htm

and . . .

http://www.theramp.net/brantner/index.htm
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:10 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by CBQ_Guy

Here's the original Coyote layout:

http://home.att.net/~clearpix/index.htm

and . . .

http://www.theramp.net/brantner/index.htm


Love the prairie dog village.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:26 PM
Looks pretty good!!
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:31 PM
Whoaaa.... lets get the horses hitched up right here gang...
The site that CBQ-Guy posted is -not- my layout at all.. its the clearly wonderful and detailed work of another gentleman. His site, layout and info is a great boon.. it is not mine though.. I could only wish for that level of skill..

Ok all fixed.. giddyup.. yaa


Coyote
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:38 PM
With that plan. I think I would make the track on the center island loop over itself like part of a figure 8. That makes the main line about 6 feet longer and gives an interesting bridging or tunneling crossing possibility.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:26 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

With that plan. I think I would make the track on the center island loop over itself like part of a figure 8. That makes the main line about 6 feet longer and gives an interesting bridging or tunneling crossing possibility.


Thanks TZ,

I'll take a look at that, if I follow your meaning.. right now I'm redoing the plan, with wider curve radii and putting in acurate benchwork edges (but not corners [:I][;)]) and making sure the lines are properly spaced from each other etc...

When that is all done I'll post a new pic back up...

Till then keep the comments coming guys they are helping tremendously and I thank you all.

Coyote
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:26 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

With that plan. I think I would make the track on the center island loop over itself like part of a figure 8. That makes the main line about 6 feet longer and gives an interesting bridging or tunneling crossing possibility.

I'll take a look at that, if I follow your meaning..

Here is a picture of what I mean....
As you have it.

What I was thinking

And it has no S-curves.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:30 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

With that plan. I think I would make the track on the center island loop over itself like part of a figure 8. That makes the main line about 6 feet longer and gives an interesting bridging or tunneling crossing possibility.

I'll take a look at that, if I follow your meaning..

Here is a picture of what I mean....
As you have it.

What I was thinking

And it has no S-curves.


TZ,
Thank you as always Sir. I got the pics saved and will see what I can do with it... I posted a new playout and been bashing it around with SpaceMouse, take a look if ya like.. your input is always more than welcome.

Peace.

Coyote
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Sunday, August 21, 2005 7:18 PM
Usually these are left around for later reference, or people who are having similar issues or need similar ideas.
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 21, 2005 7:44 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

Usually these are left around for later reference, or people who are having similar issues or need similar ideas.


Gotcha TZ I'll follow suit, thanks for the heads up

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