Opinions on Layout please. 2nd Time around

[Anonymous]

Since I can't figure out how to post pictures, please go look and give me your opinion. This is the Westside Lumber Company layout modified to fit in our space. I couldn't figure out how to save all the grade work, but you get the idea.

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/robertmerritt/aac

[grandeman]

Honestly, I think it's to "busy". It will look more realistic when built with less track.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GearDrivenSteam

Since I can't figure out how to post pictures, please go look and give me your opinion. This is the Westside Lumber Company layout modified to fit in our space. I couldn't figure out how to save all the grade work, but you get the idea.

Can I ask a coupe of questions?

What is the theme of your railroad?
Are you wanting to do mainline running (watch the trains go by)
Or are you looking for some switching and operations?

Is this HO? What are the dimensions?

Looks like a bit of mountain territory, you will be looking at tunnels and or bridges.
What is the grade you may be looking at?

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

It'a a logging railroad. It is the Westside Lumber Company. I had to fold it around two corners to make it fit in the room. I will be using SHays, Heislers and Climaxes. I like mainline stuff, and pulling grades. It is HO. 9.5' x 9.5'. Tunnels. Actually, it's less busy than the real thing, as I had to leave some off to make it fit the room. Any advice on improvements is welcome.

QUOTE: Originally posted by dthurman

QUOTE: Originally posted by GearDrivenSteam

Since I can't figure out how to post pictures, please go look and give me your opinion. This is the Westside Lumber Company layout modified to fit in our space. I couldn't figure out how to save all the grade work, but you get the idea.

Can I ask a coupe of questions?

What is the theme of your railroad?
Are you wanting to do mainline running (watch the trains go by)
Or are you looking for some switching and operations?

Is this HO? What are the dimensions?

Looks like a bit of mountain territory, you will be looking at tunnels and or bridges.
What is the grade you may be looking at?

Thanks!

[Texas Zepher]

Is it operated from the center or the outsides. If outside which side(s) are against the wall(s)?

[Anonymous]

Three sides against the wall. The side between the loops will be open. Although there isn't enough room in the plan to walk between the loops, there will be upon completion. I can and will cut openings anywhere I need to, to gain access to areas that are hard to reach.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

Is it operated from the center or the outsides. If outside which side(s) are against the wall(s)?

[SpaceMouse]

Hi, I just have a couple questions.

Can you explain the lumber operation to me? Where are the trees loaded? Where is the mill, or are you just taking the trees to the lumber camp? What is the purpose of the yard?

[dehusman]

The yard needs another runaround, the yard is too small, once you enter the loop the only way out is to reverse directions. If you slid the "siding" at the very top to the left and put the switch for the line from the yard in the main just beyond the siding, a train would have to go all the way around the loop to get to the siding. It could then runaround itself and go all the way around the loop back to the yard. Much more prototypical operation by just moving a couple switches, no dollars involved.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

GearDrivenSteam,

I assume you have not built much of a layout before. [Please don't read that as a deliberate derogatory comment.] I say this because your plan doesn't appear to include some typical logging railroading features.

I would remake the yard at the lower right to include a team track and a run-around. [Note Dave's comments] Proceeding from the yard downgrade, I would hug the walls as you wind around to the top right corner. This first curve in the top left would be an excellent location for a timber trestle later when you feel ready for that.

In the top right corner, I would make a 180+ turn at minimum radius with many trees concealing the back portions of the turn. Proceeding downgrade I would then work my way back to the lower right hand corner where a switch-back track, and possibly a run-around allows the train to reverse direction as it continues down grade.

Have the track headed back to the left along the walls where it ducks into a tunnel in the upper right hand corner again and turn around in minimum radius coming out [of the tunnel] near the upper left hand corner where it ends at a yard which interchanges with a larger railroad.

Lots of trees, rock cuts and a good backdrop will give you a very nice logging railroad. Good Luck - Ed

[Anonymous]

As others have implied, you will ultimately be happier with the layout with more operational features. Also, have you considered narrow gauge?

[Anonymous]

Naw, no narrow gauge. I have thought about N scale. Only for a second. How's it look now? The Timber mill is the only thing I have added. Open to suggestions.

[SpaceMouse]

Suggestion: Determine how your operations will work then design the railroad to fit the operations. See my previous question.

I posted this earlier. Since it took a while to type, I'm going to get a lot of milage from it.

I was reading this last night. It is from the July 2003 MR and is a flashback to March 1944, an editorial by Frank Taylor.

"With a Purpose

To design an interesting railroad is difficult, Most of become aware of this after our system is in operation for a short time. When the novelty of running trains over newly laid track wears off, we realize that our layout isn't just what it should be. And even after some of the trackwork is changed, we become bored.

The trouble is, we are not accomplishing a thing by running our trains. To make the model railroad operation interesting we should design our railroad with a purpose in mind--that of providing rail transportation to various factories, farms, terminals and industries in general. We should forget about our preference for an oval track, or a water-wing pattern for a single or multi-track main lines, because none of these features in themselves will keep us enthralled. Instead, we should build our pike just as our country was developed. Before we decide out track pattern we should determine what kinds of industry we intend to serve and where they should be located.

With these plotted on our plan, it is evident that rail service is needed and the track pattern automatically suggests itself. We see there is a definite need for a siding to our lumber yard; another for the bulk oil warehouse. A passing siding between Eton and Mellsville will facilitate freight and passenger moves; yards and roundhouse near the town of Aetna seem logical. In this way our layout design takes form. Every track is located for the purpose of providing the transportation required by conditions.

Next consideration is service. Whether it be freight or passenger transportation, we must consider the time element, which is the essence of service.

A clock should be regeared to run 10 to 12 times faster than normal. With this speeded-up timepiece on hand, we can design a series of realistic schedules which will show runs figured in fractions of hours instead of the actual fractions of minutes that elapse. Each schedule should be on a separate chard and each should provide plenty of operations to be handled ins a definite length of time. This is kind of model railroad being designed by the Montreal Model Railroad Club. The businesses and industries have been plotted and each section of track and time schedule will serve a definite purpose. Membership should never fall off because the railroad lacks interest.--Frank Taylor"

[SpaceMouse]

Log loading site


Log Camp


Log Dump

[ereimer]

i'm not one of those people who thinks you have to pick a prototype railroad and follow it as closely as possible , but some research on how the real railroads do things is a very good place to start . after that you can decide how much you want to follow a specific prototype , or if there are features of several railroads that you want to include in your layout .

i may be 100% wrong in your case , but i think you'll enjoy your layout much more if it has some basis in reality , and you have a defined goal aim for , beyond getting some track down and some trains running

[Anonymous]

I thought we had it looking pretty good. I guess we just need to find a new hobby.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GearDrivenSteam

I thought we had it looking pretty good. I guess we just need to find a new hobby.

Gear,

Not at all in the end it about having fun.. do what makes you happy and what you enjoy.. any and all advice given by any of us here is just that advice and opinion, in the end its your pike.. have fun with it.

Peace.

Coyote

[selector]

I think you should build WHAT you want for the reasons YOU want. Build it and learn that, good or bad, running the trains is what it all boils down to.


Your plan can't possibly please those who just like watching trains run around on a closed loop, and it won't please those who like point-to-point- and realistic operations. So why bother to ask for feedback if you find that what you get is offputting? HAVE FUN.....DAMMIT!

[Anonymous]

Oh we will. It's just that yall don't know how long it took me to figure this thing out. Then, our plan gets slammed. But that's ok! That's what I asked for, and I appreciate it. The emd result will be worth it. Besides all that, we ain't in a hurry.

[novicerr]

Several people on this forum have spent months designing a track plan, and then changing it to add/delete some operation. When I built my first layout (about a year ago), I had no idea what I wanted to do. I built one based roughly on the Atlas #13 layout in one of their books. I have a large mountain, tunnel, a coal mine (which has no thru track) and a town with no industries. Of course, I havent finished the scenicing yet. We moved into a new house in December, and brought the layout with us (HO, 4x8). The wife is dissappointed that I have not done much with it lately, but I am trying to redesign it into a new room. Have decided that I cant incorporate it into a new layout very well, so will just start over with an around the wall layout.
But, the point I am trying to make, and not doing a very good job, is that I didn't think things out very well. I didnt know what industries I wanted to serve, nor how to serve them. I ended up watching trains go round in circles, which as has been stated, gets boring very quickly.
So, I dont think the others are trying to slam your layout, just trying to point out ways to make this hobby and your layour more interesting for you. I wish I had known about this forum before I started building my first layout. Might have saved me lots of time, but I did get experience in scenics, wiring etc.
Best of luck on your layout and I hope you have many years of enjoyment out of it.

[SpaceMouse]

Check out this website. I have downloaded over a thousand pictures from this site. Three of which you see above. Use the search by category and select logging railroads.

http://content.lib.washington.edu/clarkkinseyweb/index.html

No one is slamming your plan. It shows a lot of imagination. Just peel away the the skin of the onion and find another layer inside. The more layers you peel away before you build, the more enjoyable your layout will be. As you layout gets better, it becomes more fun to design.

[ereimer]

everything you read here should have a little disclaimer at the bottom

"the statements above are the opinion of the author and may have absolutely no relevance to your situation "

in other words do what you want to do , we're just telling you what we think works best .

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Log loading site


Log Camp


Log Dump

Chip;
Your reserch seems to be going great,keep at it,LOOKING good[^][:p]
JIM

[SpaceMouse]

I got into this hobby because my 8 year old autistic son showed an interest in trains. I built a 4x8 layout with a couple circles a few spurs and a yard. There are 17 turnouts and lots of different directions to run a train. He was bored within a week. I lasted longer, I think because I had spent 5 months building it. Now it sits in the basement virtually unused. What I planned to be my connection with my son did not get off the ground. But still he likes trains. He plays with his Tomas the Tank Engine wodden set and interacts with it showing creative imagination.

My 4x8 plan.


Lower Level


Upper level.



So my goal is to make a layout that will regain his interest. My best guess is to create a railroad that has a purpose. The railraod you see above had the sole purpose of running trains.

Disclaimer: My opinions, although strongly stated all too often, are just my opinions. My wife gives me great practice at being ignored.

[Anonymous]

GearDrivenSteam,

Your layout shows a lot of creativity. In fact, it looks like many layouts in the classic book, "101 track plans". This was an extremely popular book - seems like nearly everyone has a copy.

Layout design has evolved a bit since that book came out. Today, many refer to layouts like yours and many of those in 101 TP as "bowl of spaghetti" layouts. It's not meant to sound derogatory. But you have to admit, there's a lot of track on your layout going every which way, which looks sort of like a bowl of spaghetti!

Something I've noticed in Model Railroader magazine, is most of the best modern layouts have fairly simple track plans, with narrow benchwork that could easily be reached.

Check out Joe Fugate's layout at http://siskiyou.railfan.net/ - click on Track Plan.

This is a big layout, with some cool double-deck tricks. But notice how the track plan itself is pretty simple. Everywhere where you'll be standing, you see the track go from left to right, or vice versa. You never see a bunch of loops, etc.

In a loggig line, you'll certainly have more loops, etc, but it's definately something to think about.

Everyone is trying to help you out because they know you'll invest a lot of time and effort into your railroad.

But as everyone has said, just make sure you have fun...

If you don't like your track plan, you'll likely scrap it before much scenery work gets done, etc., and start over anyway.

Have fun!!!

[Anonymous]

Gear,

I have a friends who model the Westside and know many Westside fanatics. Very cool choice. The Westside was a narrow guage railroad. They had dual gauge trackage at the mill/engine shed area. I point this out just as a reference and not as advice as to which gauge you should be using.

I would suggest reading a couple of books on the operation, there are many books on logging in the Sierras, and let your track plan develop over time.

[roadrat]

Gear,
I thought your original plan was perfect for a logging railroad, remember the logging company was'nt going to spend alot of money on switchs and sidings for what was going to be a temporary operation, I would make the yard a little longer and combine it with a large wooden saw mill and then dot the rest of the layout with really rustic logging camps, big 5% grades , tunnels and lots of trees.

above all have fun!

bill

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GearDrivenSteam

Oh we will. It's just that yall don't know how long it took me to figure this thing out. Then, our plan gets slammed. But that's ok! That's what I asked for, and I appreciate it. The emd result will be worth it. Besides all that, we ain't in a hurry.

No one was slamming the plan. Just about everyone in the hobby has built a layout only to be unhappy with it after a few months. We learn lessons along the way and pass on what we've learned. For most of us, a layout is more likely to keep our interest if the trains operate in a way that is similar to the prototype. This does not necessarily mean a complicated track plan or a 20 by 30 space. There are some great prototypical plans in small spaces.

As far as you latest plan goes, it addresses some of the operational problems of the initial plan. I like it. You do have a duck under. Hopefully that's not a problem for you. But that's one of the things with layout planning; we solve one problem but are left with another. Ultimately it's a trade-off.

[Anonymous]

Here's another idea.



The yard is obvious. I'm thinking of the logging operation at the branch on the upper right, at a fairly steep grade. Then having to come all the way around and inside the inner loop and back into the sawmill at the left. Another industry could be on the right.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GearDrivenSteam
Here's another idea.

I like it too, but -
1. It has no run around at all.
2. I would eliminate the set of turnouts in the center bottom making what I consider the lumber area that much further away from the loop.

[SpaceMouse]

Gears,

This is not an attempt to one-up, rather I'm using my lumber operation as an example. IT is not close to finished by any means and I hope others here will help with design once I get it closer. You'll note it is about the same space as yours.



There are three operational sites. In the upper left is the sawmill and the yard. In the prototype the railroad and the lumber company were the same. In the lower center there is a track with a runaround, that is the log loading site. On the right, there are two parallel lines, the logging camp. These correspond roughly to the three pictures I posted earlier.

With those three sites, the following operations can occur. First following the logs.

Logs are loaded on to skeleton cars at the loading site and hauled to the logging camp by Shay. The Shay also picks up emptys and takes them up to the loading site. It also hauls up the men to do the work. A 2-6-2 comes up from the mill hauling empty skeleton cars, drpops them off and hauls the log cars to the mill log dump. It dumps the logs and stores the empties for the next run to the logging site.

Supplies are also needed by the logging site and box car is attached to the empties going back up to the logging camp. The men at the loggin camp need R&R and so they are hauled to the town.

Finsihed lumber is loaded at the mill into boxcars and hauled off to the rest of the world. Empty box cars and supplies are brought back from the rest of the world.

Engine service is performed at both the logging camp and the mill.

I plan 5 engines for this operation, which I figure was about right for the prototype. A 2-6-0 running logs up and back from the lumber camp. A 2-6-0 running lumber to the rest of the world. A 2-6-0 switching in the yard. A shay running logs fromt the loading site to the logging camp, and a 4-4-0 passenger service running workers and passengers from the mill town to the rest of the world.

By no means am I saying to copy what I have done. In fact, you woud be perfectly right in saying &*%^$ you, I just want to run trains in the woods. Me too. I have had a dream of running trains in the redwoods. I just want something to do while I am there.