Hand-laying track

[tomikawaTT]

Here are a few quick comments on the `hand laid versus flex track' discussion.

A. There is no law that you have to do either/or. Hand-laid trackwork has its points and place. So does flex track. So,for that matter, does sectional track, if you happen to acquire some as part of a five dollar deal at a yard sale.

B. The rules that I'm working to on my current layout are:
1. Hand-lay up-front trackage that will be easy for visitors to see and appreciate.
2. Hand-lay all specialwork (turnouts, crossings, gantlets etc).
3. Use appropriate flex track where necessary in the scene. (My prototype was changing over to concrete ties in September 1964. Has anyone ever hand-laid concrete-tie track?)
4. Use flex track (and some commercial turnouts) for all hidden track, even in short tunnels. However, any puzzle track will be handlaid, since commercial components tend to take up too much valuable length.
5. Sectional track (including rerailers) may be used for straight staging sidings. Otherwise, it makes a satisfactory source of short rails for conversion to points, guard rails and closure rails of hand-laid specialwork.

C. The keys to success with hand-laid track are:
1. Work with your NMRA gauge in one hand, always.
2. Test everything immediately, with your most derailment-prone rolling stock.
3. If the test results are unsatisfactory, rebuild at once.

In the past I have hand-laid a lot of track, including some real puzzle-palace specialwork for a now-defunct club. It operated without problems for several years under a wide variety of rolling stock. (One example - a double track to six platform track passenger terminal throat that included a scissors crossover and two double slip switches.) Building that was fun. Laying tangents and simple curves really isn't, and an airbrush can solve a lot of the lack of realism in flex track.

[Anonymous]

Yup...I've gone to the store many a time, come back with lots of neat things and totally forgot why I went in the first place.

As far as personal preference, I'm actually very much looking forward to laying the track myself. As a kid I did a lot of playing with legos and such, I never particularly liked large complicated pieces as I prefered to build every little part myself. I think hand-laying the track will be really fun, it's not a necessary evil to accomplish before I can get on to the fun of running trains. My attitude is that the fun is in getting there, not just being there. There's a good chance that as I age, move (I move every couple years it seems) and progress with my layouts I'll get the hand-laying out of my system and want to focus on other aspects, I may very well go back to flextrack (I have about 300 feet in storage), but for now I'm very much looking forward to it.

And why shouldn't I? I'm twenty-eight and have the run of my basement, I'm not in a hurry to get finished, and I'd love to have the experience. I'm building my layout in a pseudo-modular fashion...I want to take my benchwork with me if and when I move again, and I want to build room by room. Basically my first room will have a thirteen foot yard with mainline pass-throughs, loops at both ends with mainline turnouts off the ends of the loops so that I can extend that line into the next room in either direction as I grow the line. Right now I'm looking at laying around 200 feet of track. When I'm done with this room I'll move on to the next room and do a different area of the country, once that track is down I'll run in the mainline and connect the two.

Doing it this way will also help me zone the layout by room and seperately amp the track to support more trains as I expand. It's the approach that made the most sense to me...and by putting loops at the end of each addition I can run it as a single person, or switch those loops off and gear it toward operations with several people in mind. Versatility is important up here in tundra country, I want to be able to run my layout both ways depending on the weather and who can make it over for a weekend session.

[Anonymous]

I built a layout thirty years ago which was 90 percent hand laid. Total mainline length of 450 feet with three yards six tracks wide at twelve feet of length average plus numerous sidings and passing tracks. With some where around sixty turnouts and a dozen or so crossovers two of these where double diamonds. This all ran fairly well but was a constant maintenance nightmare with issues like rail gaps and turn out points. Besides,this took almost three years to complete and that was without any scenery, "that's another issue"
Any way I would advise that you use commercial turnouts and flex track for the majority of your of your endevor as and save the the hand laid for the special needs. It's always a nice to put some fancy hand laid track work in a place where it can be viewed up front.

[Anonymous]

Action,

How big is the layout and how much time do you want to spend on the trackwork??? Which part of the hobby do you enjoy most? I like it all, but I most prefer scenery, building rolling stock and operations. Given my preferences, I won't be doing too much handlaying of track because it takes time away from other aspects of the hobby that I enjoy more.

If you are talking realism, I think ME flextrack looks better than handlaid. Compare the spike detail in ME to handlaid and you will see what I mean. The only area I might consider handlaying would be switches. I have done some hand laying and it is very time consuming. I have a large layout and am using ME flex and a variety of switches with the goal of completing the trackwork sometime in my lifetime.

There is the old joke as far as the progression of modelers and track:

Starting with Snap track, then flextrack, on to handlaid, back to flextrack......

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by actionplant

I'm anxious to get started on this, unfortunately when I ordered everything I didn't include rail!!

Kinda like when I go to the grocery store to buy milk. I come home with about 3 bags of stuff and guess what? No milk!

Glad I'm not the only one!

[Anonymous]

I've been soaking in all the replies, thanks so much, you can spend weeks thinking on a subject but never draw conclusions even close to those made on experience.

I'm anxious to get started on this, unfortunately when I ordered everything I didn't include rail!! Time to re-order, the decking is going up now, the plan is being transfered to the decking and the cork will be here soon.

I'll be drilling and wiring for DCC from the get-go, I wouldn't imagine that wiring for DCC is any different on hand-layed track that it would be on flex, in fact it seems to me like it would actually be easier. Anything I should know about?

[selector]

Life's too short for me (I'm already retired, and feel I've much time to make up since I am new to modeling). So, if...IF.... I were to handlay, I'd do it in a simulated nearly-abandoned right-of way with crappy old track that only the bravest hogger on the line would agree to take a loco over. Otherwise, its the flex-track Mark I for me.

[jfrank138]

Except for flex on hidden track, I hand lay all my track (O-scale) on homemade ties and file all my switch points and frogs, including a double-slip. I slightly vary the width and length of the ties for more realism.

I use a computer program (AutoCAD) to print templates for easements, to avoid trial-and-error. And the Jack Work technique for points makes the switches (oops -- turnouts) look much better.

Oh, and one other thing, hand-laid track is sturdier -- is able to take more abuse. I can walk on mine (not my normal practice, I hasten to add) and the ties won't melt if I should stay too long on the soldering iron.

John

[Anonymous]

after 50 years in the hobby, hand laying is still my preference. while in the navy in san francisco, ca, i joined the Golden Gate Club, Yes it is still there. All the track was hand laid including all turnouts, cross overs, etc. any thing made of rail was built. we had a great bunch of scratch builders and very good teachers. we would use 3 sections of rail soldered together, yes a 9 foot piece to spike down. also hand laid ties made on a jig for 3 foot strips, glued, sanded, restained then rail put on. a very long straight edge was used and a tramel used for curves. took a long time to do, but any problems were because of the equipment not the track work. however i now use flex track for speed on modules but have entertained the notion of going back to hand lay. your effort and pride in your workmanship will get you raves. of course i now spend my time in florida and our club has a modular layout about 100' x 30' we take to train shows and meets.

[JimValle]

I'll just add one more point to those made by the other commentators: If you do handlay, make sure you take effective measures to control temperature and humidity factors in your layout room. I've seen lovingly laid track spring out of alignment with the expansion and contraction of the benchwork under it and it's not a pretty sight! Basement. attic and garge layouts are the most vulnerable. Nickle silver track can expand and contract as well so think about some expansion joints to back up your efforts at climate control. I, for one, would totally freak out if I cane into my layout room and discovered that my lovingly handlaid track had become a squiggley mess!

[jsotto]

There is much I agree with concerning Mr. Braun's comments and his kindred spirit description of his Zephyr ride. I'm sure his large by modeling standards turnouts are beautiful to see and observe trains gliding through.

I would like to add a counter-point, however, to the comment about tweaking curves and easements after initially laying them out. I have never had to make curve or easement adjustments with hand layed track. I have had to do so with flex track. This would not be easy to do if the flex track was ballasted (mine was in unballasted staging areas only). Once your flex is tweaked where you like it, I would expect that glued ballast would then keep it in place so it would no longer need tweaking. If it did, I go back to one of my earlier comments about roadbed being the problem, not the track.

I suggest to you that the pro's and con's only wash if you think a turnout is a turnout is a turnout and smooth geometry is not a high priority for you. That's OK, most of us compromise in one area or another. We all trade time for money versus what is interesting and fun for us to work on.

But for the few of us who do notice performance and for whom it is a high priority, the pro's and con's most assuredly do not wash evenly. I am not hand laying 4100' of code 70 track because it is more fun than working on engines and cars. although it is relaxing and satisfying. I do it because it is more fun (for me) to see ALL my engines and cars look and run better on better designed turnouts.

Only you can decide if you see enough of a performance difference to justify the effort soothed by the cost savings. I can see and appreciate the difference between others' skillfully scratchbuilt structures and the many simpler plastic kit structures I settle for. That's a hard, practical choice so I can spend more time building turnouts for a large railroad. But I bet you'd enjoy running your favorite train on my trackwork. Both are to be enjoyed - just different priorities.

[Anonymous]

Back in the 70s I hand laid a layout--looked very nice. In the early 80s we moved & I started a new layout--I was going to handlay but decided I would not live long enough! If you are building a large layout and/or like to run/watch trains like me, don't handlay--it takes time. Its also a hassle if you want to change something later. Cincinnati Central

[Anonymous]

I haven't handlaid track on any of my layouts to this point, but I have often considered it and might do so on my next layout. So, like you I have often given much consideration to the pros and cons of doing so. I think Joe hit the spike on the head - ultimately the pros and cons wash, except for maybe one or two pros or cons (and which ones those are will be different from one person to the next.) Those one or two are the tiebreakers that will be the deciding factor for you.

Just a few more comments I've heard that you might want to weigh in your decision making. One club in northern California (in transition between layouts) made a comment in a mid 1990's MR article about their layout - their past layouts all involved handlaid track, but their future layout won't. Their reasoning is that the flex track and switches available these days are so well done, they don't want to spend the time handlaying anymore. They'd rather devote that time to other aspects of the hobby. A friend of mine who belongs to a club here in the LA area that is right now in transition between layouts (they just got booted from the place they were leasing and have come to terms on leasing a different place) made an identicle comment.

Ironically, my inclinations are just the opposite. My layouts up until this point have all used flex track and Atlas, Walthers, and ME switches because of the time factor. My next layout I'm inclined to go handlaid because I really like the looks of real wood, stained, handlaid ties - nevermind the amount of time involved.

One very large and well known club layout changed to a kind of mix in the philosophies about track - they hand lay the switches but use flextrack for everything else. This applies to their more recent, current, and future tracklaying. Much of the layout had already been built with handlaid track in all regards.

Like Joe said, it's a very individual decision. Good luck with yours!!

Greg

[joebraun]

The pros and cons of this question will cancel each other out forever. The choice has to be a very individual one.

My aim in modelling was to be a trainwatcher. And I have always felt a certain artistry when a long streamliner went along a favorite stretch of track just gliding like a smooth snake. When I rode the Rio Grande Zephyr shortly before its demise, I was fortunate to plant myself in the front seat of the rear dome for the entire trip. One thing that impressed me was how the fluting on the roof just kept lined up uniformly with that on the car ahead, no matter what kind of track we were on. The train was truly a silver thread. There was no side-to-side divergence, even at turnouts. That is what I wanted on my model railroad in so far as I define modelling as an artform.

I got that in part by using minimum radii of 48" and #12 and #16 turnouts and crossovers on all mainline applications. Those specs take real estate that I was fortunate to have.

But the biggest factor in getting Zephyr-like track was using flextrack for one very simply reason. You can keep adjusting the track, especially on spiral easements and the body of the curves themselves with flex in a way you cannot with handlaid track. I had a hand-pushed test train of 80' passenger cars that I used when laying the track.. When the cars' ends started to zig and zag relative to each other, I found that adjustments of as little as 1/32" and as much as 1/4" made the difference - and you will always need that kind of adjustment. With handlaid track, you can't pick up the ties and move them with the rail.

I used Shinohara flex on all the mainline and visible yard trackage. Once you get used to it and develop your own personal technolgy, so to speak, even meticulous track-laying goes at a gratifying pace. When I added some 1300' of hidden staging track in an adjacent room, I opted for Atlas flex because it was cheaper. But I got one big surprise! It took me quite a while to adjust to a flex track with a different feel and design. I actually had to develop a new personal "technology" in laying it.

Your decision to go with hand-laid or flex is one of those where the more people you ask the more confused you will get. Ultimately only you will know which way is the better one for you.

Good luck!

[Anonymous]

I made the decision to hand lay my track in 1988 and have never regretted it. The trackwork is smooth and reliable on a layout that hosts monthly operating sessions with a crew of seven. I laid 350 feet of track and 100 turnouts using Campbell Profile ties and weathered rail I painted with Floquil Rail Brown. Micro Engineering "small" spikes were used in every fourth tie.

Repairs to track are so much easier with hand layed track because the raills are independent of one another.

I used flex track and comercial turnouts in a staging yard with a reverse loop to turn passenger trains, and, after hand laying all the other track in the basement, had much more difficulty with it (I had to learn a new skill: laying flex track!)

The satisfaction of "laying your own" is immense and very rewarding. I highly recommend it.

[jsotto]

I hand lay to be able to create turnouts that are smoother in geometry and more prototypically graceful than commercial turnouts. Hand laying also allows me to easily "cheat" turnouts into the spiral easements of curves to gain back siding capacity, for example, taken by the space requirements of the easements themselves.

The majority of my turnouts have #6 frog angles, but my combination switch point/closure rail is no less than 60" radius and as long as (but smoother than) those of a #8 standard turnout. A typical "standard" #6 turnout is only 43" radius through the closure rail and often has a straight point, creating a lurching effect as equipment enters the diverging route.

As modelers we often use #6 turnouts where the prototype uses #8 to #12 sizes, and we tend to use #8 turnouts where the prototypes would be using #15, #20, #24, or now even #30 turnouts. So my goal is to make the diverging route as large and smooth a radius as I can fit to foster the optical illusion of the models going through much larger turnouts, just like easements help create the impression of traveling through larger curves than we can fit in our train rooms.

Track has trade-offs just like we value other modeling choices. I would love to have all scratchbuilt structures with individual shingles like some modelers do so well and I don't. I choose instead to have very smooth, graceful track that my big steam engines and long cars love.

I buy rail, ties, and spikes in quantities to get additional discounts. Some excellent-value flex track is lower cost, but some "premium" track is about the same as buying rail, ties and spikes. The HUGE cost savings is in turnouts. I figure I am saving about $15 per turnout plus another $15 for switch machines because I choose to control the points manually, assisted by a toggle switch under the roadbed. That $30 per turnout may not be a priority for your preferences, but multiply that by the 530 turnouts I have half completed, and the money is very real.

I don't have tie plates. I do have wood ties realistically varying in stain intensity from tie to tie much more prototypically than plastic tie flex track, unless one takes the time to paint the plastic ties individually with multiple shades. Even the best flex track, which is a fine product, has oversize plastic spikes. Maybe you like Fords - I like Chevys. If you want to do extreme close-ups of your equipment, the plates and spikes may be important to you in those areas. My preference is the other visual benefits of hand layed track viewed from 2-3 feet when railfanning an engine or train gliding gracefully through smooth turnouts and crossovers.

I also have many turnouts that blend with the surrounding track and track geometry that cannot be readily achieved with turnout jigs. I don't want to try to compete with a factory punching out dozens of turnouts an hour. I just want smoother flowing track to enjoy watching my equipment run. The geometry of an AREA #6 turnout is NOT a down-sized version of a smooth #20. It is harsher because it is not designed to handle higher speeds.

I don't share your concern over difficulty of correcting mistakes. If anything, I think the issue favors hand layed turnouts. More often, I see track problems as not really problems with the track but problems with the roadbed support, and that is messy to fix no matter what track is on top. That is why I use continuous spline roadbed - its key principles are the elimination of roadbed joints and creating spiral easements naturally.

I encourage you to review a railfan video or spend some time trackside where trains run 30mph or faster and focus on the motion of the train entering curves or crossovers. Then observe the motion of models going similar speeds through #6 turnouts. If they don't seem to be similar, you'll probably get a lot of satisfaction out of hand layed track built to smoother standards.

Enjoy your new layout!

[lwolohon]

I've laid a lot of flex track. I only have handlaid some track on bridges & turntables. I would much rather spend my time on somthing else! The flex track by Micro Engineering has much nicer spike details than can be done by handlaying.

[ereimer]

have you checked out these folks ?
http://www.cvmw.com/index.htm

[nobullchitbids]

Count me among the handlayers, although I got a good deal on some Shinohara turnouts and will use them in the background.

Some "do's":

Buy some TruScale milled "roadbed" on eBay and place your ties to be laid between the milled ties of the "roadbed"; cut a strip of masking tape and run it over the ties so that the tape sticks to the ties to be laid. Lift up the tape, and you're ready to set in the glue. If you are lucky, you will even be able to get curved "roadbed" of the right radius for very quick handlaid curves.

Stain the individual ties ahead of time with a stain appropriate to their use. Good stains can be made with Grumbacher carbon ("ivory") black dissolved in turpentine (comes out blackish brown), and for old ties in "decrepit" areas, I have used my general wa***hinners. The ties you buy have varied capacity to absorb stain, and this will add to the realism.

Profile ties like those once made by Campbell save ballast later.

If a couple of ties fall away from the tape, put them back in by hand -- the natural variation in spacing and angle will make your tie bed look extremely realistic.

IMPORTANT: Because the ties will not set the same depth in the glue, it is good practice to sand the ties with a block after they dry, until the stain on the top of all the ties sands off (that way, you are laying the rail on a flat surface!). Re-stain the ties after sanding, and vacuum the sandings so they do not later end up in your motors or bearings. It's more work up front but saves headaches later on.

When laying turnouts by hand, use an old Jack Work trick: Electrically isolate each point from both frog and its twin, and connect a wire from each stock rail to its respective point. Now the points can be set MUCH closer to the stock rail, because the problem of shorts is eliminated, and your turnout will look (and throw) like a real turnout.

Also, make your guard rails as short as possible but so they still work. Short guard rails highlight the distance between points and frog, making the turnout appear lower in number.

When spiking rail, I might initially spike dozens of ties apart, then fill in the middle by constantly cutting the passage in half. When I get to every other tie, I call that good enough. This tactic will help you get relatively long lengths of relatively straight rail, with just enough variation to look natural.

And finally, VERY IMPORTANT: Wear protective glasses with sideshields (plain-os if you have 20-20 vision) while spiking. You would not think spiking rail to be all that dangerous an activity, but looks are deceiving! I use a pair of needlenose pliers to grip the spike, and I once hit some hard piece of [bleep] in the tie or underlying board and had the spike snap out of the pliers and fly into my right cheek bone. It hit with enough force to actually bend the tip of the spike and bled for awhile like a ***!

Your eyes are your most important modeler's tool -- protect and take care of them!

[Big_Boy_4005]

I've done hand laying in HO and 2 rail O, and plan to do a little on my current 3 rail O layout. I will limit myself to certain custom switches. The rest will be ready made, which still has to be layed.

Curves are really no more difficult to lay than straight track, and using the proper 3 point gauges is really all that is needed. Getting straight track really straight may actually be the more difficult task.

Ultimately, you will have to judge for yourself whether trading the time is worth the cost savings. Some people just do turnouts. As Paul said that's where the money is.

[Anonymous]

Initially I'm planning on going NMRA standards and only spiking every fifth tie, the tie plates I found at Proto:87 are incredible looking but almost prohibitively expensive to use on a room-sized layout. I like the idea of adding them in down the road, and as far as I know, spiking every five ties should let me fairly easily pull up my rail and put tie plates down in sections when I get around to it. That's the plan currently.

[IRONROOSTER]

I did a little hand laying years ago and enjoyed it. My biggest problem with it is the extra time it takes. My hobby time is limited so I don't do this except in small areas where I need some custom trackwork. BTW the last time I costed it out, handlaying was more expensive except tor turnouts if you put 4 spikes per tie and tie plates.
Enjoy
Paul

[wxtoad]

I'd heartily recommend hand-laying your track. Perhaps start on a small layout or portion of one to see how it goes and develop and refine your technique. My first effort many years ago was a small 1x6' switching layout. I cheated a little and used BK Enterprises point and frog turnout kits - I just wasn't interested making those myself.

Give it a try and let us know how it goes.

[Anonymous]

Been a while since I've posted here, I mostly like to lurk and soak up information.

I recently made the decision to hand-lay my track on my new layout. I'm curious to find out how many other people here prefer hand-laid rail to flextrack or whatever else you might have used.

Coming to this decision took a lot of thought and some experimentation. My personal list of pros and cons is as follows:

Cons:
More time consuming
More complex (curves, turnouts, etc)
Will take longer to get up and running
Less forgiving (far more work to fix a mistake)

Pros:
Cheaper
Looks better (IMHO)
Greater control over turnouts and such
Take more pride in the finished product

Those were my main points...any tips or pointers before I get started? I'll be using jigs and fixtures from Fast Tracks initially. I'd love to hear of your experiences.