new layout here's some drawing

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

exactley what is the purpose of our RR. To have fun with it while we're here on GODS green earth .And if we grow tired of that layout we rip it up and try something new .
Its all a learning cycle just like life if you don't try you'll never ever know.
Lynn

Okay

[SpaceMouse]

That being said, I wonder what your purpose is.

[SpaceMouse]

Here's the text from that editorial...

I was reading this last night. It is from the July 2003 MR and is a flashback to March 1944, an editorial by Frank Taylor.

"With a Purpose

To design an interesting railroad is difficult, Most of become aware of this after our system is in operation for a short time. When the novelty of running trains over newly laid track wears off, we realize that our layout isn't just what it should be. And even after some of the trackwork is changed, we become bored.

The trouble is, we are not accomplishing a thing by running our trains. To make the model railroad operation interesting we should design our railroad with a purpose in mind--that of providing rail transportation to various factories, farms, terminals and industries in general. We should forget about our preference for an oval track, or a water-wing pattern for a single or multi-track main lines, because none of these features in themselves will keep us enthralled. Instead, we should build our pike just as our country was developed. Before we decide out track pattern we should determine what kinds of industry we intend to serve and where they should be located.

With these plotted on our plan, it is evident that rail service is needed and the track pattern automatically suggests itself. We see there is a definite need for a siding to our lumber yard; another for the bulk oil warehouse. A passing siding between Eton and Mellsville will facilitate freight and passenger moves; yards and roundhouse near the town of Aetna seem logical. In this way our layout design takes form. Every track is located for the purpose of providing the transportation required by conditions.

Next consideration is service. Whether it be freight or passenger transportation, we must consider the time element, which is the essence of service.

A clock should be regeared to run 10 to 12 times faster than normal. With this speeded-up timepiece on hand, we can design a series of realistic schedules which will show runs figured in fractions of hours instead of the actual fractions of minutes that elapse. Each schedule should be on a separate chard and each should provide plenty of operations to be handled ins a definite length of time. This is kind of model railroad being designed by the Montreal Model Railroad Club. The businesses and industries have been plotted and each section of track and time schedule will serve a definite purpose. Membership should never fall off because the railroad lacks interest.--Frank Taylor"

[SpaceMouse]

Certainly you can place the TT in the upper left loop.

[SpaceMouse]

Doh! I found the mountain waterfall.

[SpaceMouse]

I like this a lot better. You have room for aditional industrial spurs in the lower area. There are still no passing sidings or runarounds, although I suppose you could use one of your yard tracks for that purpose. You have room for these with the new design.

Last night I was reading one of the "flashback" editorials from 1942. In it, the editor was talking about design, and beleive it or not, I thought about you. The gist of the article was that if you layout track and add industry, you will find that eventually the layout becomes lifeless and uninteresting. If however, you look at the land, and add industry, then realism comes naturally. First you link a railroad to serve the industry. Then you connect the industry to the mainline. If you see a way to save time/money by adding track you do it

What you end up doing is creating a functioning model railroad. Contrast this to running trains in acircle.

BTW:What happened to the mountain/waterfall. I hope you didn't cut it completely.

[wrumbel]

If you could move the yellow track in and the purple track to the outside on the lowwer end by your yard the two tracks could be level when they come out of the tunnel. Bring the purple track down some and leave the yellow track higher so maybe they are 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 inches when they come out. The yellow track would go down into the valley where the yard is and the purple track would go back up to 4" to cross the river and the yellow track. This would eliminate all the areas where the tracks cross at the bottom of this loop. The purple track would still be higher on the outside but with them lowwer coming out of the tunnel and then one going up and the other going down it would look better on this end. I hope this helps some.

Wayne

[wrumbel]

I liked your original plan, it's old school, not for operation more for running trains and having fun. My first layout was like this but not as large. It was twice around with two sideings and one passing track. It was built with brass track and Atlas Snap switches. As I learned a little more I started to replace all the brass with nickle silver. At this time I added an engine house and a reversing track. This made the layout more interesting to run, the train wasn't aways going in the same direction. It sounds like you want to run some trains and build some neat scenery, like I said before I like the original. Most people when they start thinking about a layout aren't into operation and building like a real railroad, they want someting that looks like a real railroad, but not all the work.

Have Fun that's what it's all about
Wayne

[Anonymous]

You might want to step back from the details and think about the big picture. For example, have you noticed that even if you add one reversing loop, once you've entered it, you've shot your wad...there doesn't appear to be a way to re-reverse, if operationally, you would find that desireable...I find that would be very desireable as you appear to have the beginnings of a plausible combination of point to point and continuous running operations. For a layout this size, it would seem a shame to limit yourself to round-and-round plus a bit of switching activity. And seriously think about the desireability of some staging; again, for a layout this size, you should have no trouble providing for it, and it will be something you'll really appreciate later on. I see your eagerness to proceed by your photographs...and...if I were in your shoes, I'd be studying your track plan and what it allows you to do before laying track. John Armstrong's book (and may he rest in peace), "Track Planning for realistic operation" raised my level of thinking about operations in a very significant way; because of him, I've torn up a lot of sketches but precious little track!

...this is all just my $0,02's worth...good luck and keep us posted

[wrumbel]

Your original plan was a twice around twisted dogbone. You left the yard went around the layout twice and came back to the yard entrance facing the wrong way to enter.

I added a reversing cutoff track where the purple track crosses the river and the lowwer yellow track. This makes the layout an out and back. The train leaves the yard and goes around to the switch by the 2" mark. This will reverse the train and will bring the train back to the yard headed in. You will need a crossover at the end of the long track so the engine can switch to the second track or it will be trapped at the end of the yard.

Wayne

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Stick with it. Chip and others seem determined to shepherd you through to a satisfactory end. [^][tup]

[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[selector]

I am finding this exchange very interesting. I agree with Chip that you hafta pay yer dues in this hobby...like most others, really. For all the bother, the frustration, the forgetting and having someone remind you that you DID see it somewhere (but forgot to make a note about it in your master folder), and re-doing, it is a rite of passage, so-to-speak. But, it will be worth it to adopt ideas from others and to massage them to fit your grande plan.

A concept is a great start, but that's all the canned version should ever be for most of us. The rest is a passage of discovery and hard planning.

Stick with it. Chip and others seem determined to shepherd you through to a satisfactory end. [^][tup]

[SpaceMouse]

Yes and no. Sure you can borrow heavily from other people's ideas. But as soon as you put your mountain in someone else's layout, it doesn't work. Yes, you can throw track together and run trains, but the better you plan, the more likely you will be able to grow with your layout. You say you are new to this. So am I. I started from scratch last Christmas when my son got a Hogwart's Express. But I know my layout will take 5 years to build. Yours will take 2 years or so. You are at the point where you will grow the fastest in the hobby. Doesn't it make sense to plan a railroad that you will be able grow with rather than one that you will outgrow before it is done?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

do you fellas think it is possible to convert the inyo line to my main focus which is the river and falls in the upper right corner inserting a river and flls and tressels into the inyo plan [

See Dave's post above. No "canned" layout is going to fit your space and fit your givens and druthers. (Which if you haven't written out your givens an druthers, should be your next step.) So you have to make compromises. This leads me back to the idea of the model railroad software. You are going to have to take control of your design some time and the sooner the better. You'll never know which of your ideas will actually work until you do.

Anyway, once you have your givens an druthers firmly in your mind, you can start experimenting. Obviously your mountain and waterfalls are a strong druther--mine was redwoods and tressel bridges. You design them in to be your center pieces. From there you experiment with mainline, making it work. You then add your industries and other design elments. Some will work, some will not. You go back and adjust your mainline, and work a few more. You get a wild idea and you swtich whole sections around. Then you make it work again. You make compromises and you get opinions.

Get a program. Learn it. Start experimenting. XtraCAD is good free one.

Have a reason for everything you do.

whats a canned layout
my benchwork is just like whats on the plan I posted 12 x 11...hmmm are the 2 layouts I postedlast not also this size or will they not fit?

For purposes of discussion a canned layout is something someone else drew using their own set of givens and druthers. Since no two people have the same set of givens and druthers, their plan won't work for you without compromises.

[Anonymous]

Hi!!! You have a good start and many fine suggestions. Won't try to add at this time, except to say, I hope you are planning to use somekind of roadbed. It wasn't clear to me from your pictures. Cork or homasote make good roadbeds. If you are not familar with the noise level of unprotected plywood, you might be unhappy when done without some noise deadening roadbed. Just for the record, I have been working this hobby for some 35 or 40 years. Not trying to brag, just info.
tfox65

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

do you fellas think it is possible to convert the inyo line to my main focus which is the river and falls in the upper right corner inserting a river and flls and tressels into the inyo plan [

See Dave's post above. No "canned" layout is going to fit your space and fit your givens and druthers. (Which if you haven't written out your givens an druthers, should be your next step.) So you have to make compromises. This leads me back to the idea of the model railroad software. You are going to have to take control of your design some time and the sooner the better. You'll never know which of your ideas will actually work until you do.

Anyway, once you have your givens an druthers firmly in your mind, you can start experimenting. Obviously your mountain and waterfalls are a strong druther--mine was redwoods and tressel bridges. You design them in to be your center pieces. From there you experiment with mainline, making it work. You then add your industries and other design elments. Some will work, some will not. You go back and adjust your mainline, and work a few more. You get a wild idea and you swtich whole sections around. Then you make it work again. You make compromises and you get opinions.

Get a program. Learn it. Start experimenting. XtraCAD is good free one.

Have a reason for everything you do.

[Anonymous]

How about this idea, I know it's been brought up before as well as in MR, decide on what the lay of the land will be, I think you stated you sort of do, then decide what industries you want, and how the towns should flow, I would almost make a schmatic of the RR. Then with all those items start designing, I wonder if you did them as they talk in MR, as LDE's layout Design Elements?

I think the biggest obstable you are hitting is like spacemouse said, one way switching and the stub end yards.

I would select the sections I liked on mine, pull them out of the design and hold them "off layout" and then move them around into different areas, change how the main went etc. Again "wickman" I have dozens of plans, some were way cool, and I wanted to go with them, but when I took them to the LHS, I have a pretty cool shop in town, he pointed out all this compound reverse loops that he said would make my life h#ll. So I started cutting out certian switches and crossovers. I was wanting a simpler life [;)], also I run mine as DC. Not sure if what way you power track also has a bearing on design????

The thing is you are asking AND listening so you will have the cool design in the end. Look at spacemouse, he is still looking at benchwork, and I think be is from all regards an old-timer (no offense). My point is he is willing to take the time to get it right and not rush himself, something I am terrible at...

[SpaceMouse]

Here's an article by Byron Henderson.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsvc/id16.html

See, Byron I do listen.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

hay dave check out this layout
http://www.machinearts.com/rrsite/tplan.html

Very nice[:)]

Only draw back to me is the switch back, I was determined to keep them out, though I did have one on mine, it sort of leads from a secondary yard.

I was in my planning remembering the different companies I worked at and how their tracks were laid out. I always remembered that almost all had at least 2 run-arounds.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

I kinda like daves plan I like the idea of a dog bone because you can have one long run and still beable to move cars around on a seperate line off the main ...hmmm this is what I've been trying to acheive but in a round about way

Keep working at it, it took me almost 2 months non-stop of trying different ideas, I would then print them out and sit back in bed and dream/imagine how it would run. That was actually a very fun part of the process.

Keep in mind even the best laid plans will change once you start laying track, mine deviated a little from the original. I need to now redo my plan to show the true layout, though it is 95% that plan.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse



One thing I would add to Dave's layout would be a staging area--if only one track.

You are VERY CORRECT!!! I wish I would have planned that in. Come this winter I am going to be ripping or maybe even try my hand at hand laying a couple of switches for staging, I do have the room.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

What program are you using to draw the plan? Maybe you could email me the drawing and I could work on getting something we can see.

it was done in xtrackcad but it was done for me from a railroader and I don't have the raw plan just the jpg and I've been deiting in photoshop then saving as jpg

XtraCAD is a free program with an excellent tutorial. I was up and running on it in one day. I strongly recommend you do your work in a program made for model railroading. If you edit the .jpg, you are bound to run into trouble when it comes time to lay the trackwork.

[SpaceMouse]

Dave just posted a good example os what I was talking about. Notice that within close proximity to every switching area is a runaround track. That allows your engines to get in to all the areas. Also notice that he has a unifed theme with his structures.

One thing I would add to Dave's layout would be a staging area--if only one track.

[Anonymous]

Mine is in n-scale, and is 3 1/2 feet by 12 on the left and the dogbone is 3 by 7 feet.

I ened up with a pretty decent mainline, almost looks double tracked but tis only an illusion [:D]

Slow speed runs take about 25 minutes to make a full lap.

I would move things around some more and see what strikes you and keep posting here. I used to design and build web sites, I always told the client you need to be positive you are happy with the look, because once it's done it will cost $$ to change, or as I always put it, if you paint your house purple, you will have to be happy with purple [8D]

[SpaceMouse]

What program are you using to draw the plan? Maybe you could email me the drawing and I could work on getting something we can see.

[Anonymous]

Wow, I thought I was looking at my tran plan [:)]



I think Spacemouse is right, you want both directions to be able to switch from, run-arounds etc. Also what your preferences are, running, switching, operations and such.

Also that back corner is going to be a bear to rerail cars and clean, I know, mine is a tough one to reach.

Also what scale? I am guessing HO?

QUOTE: 1.as far as the layout plan goes how close to the edge should I be with the outside rail

2. do you have any ideas how I may make my yrd accessable from the end as well as the entrance so its not a dead end

I wouldn't get more then 1-2 inches from the edge, unless you put in a plexiglass facia, for those unsuspecting bumps against the layout or reaching ins. Mine is about 1/2 from the edge, I am awaiting the day one of my engines get sent to the scrap line [xx(]

How about moving the yard to a different location? say to the left area?

QUOTE: Corrected from my dyslexic brain.

[chateauricher]

Since I don't see any reversing loops, I'm guessing you don't want your trains to change direction (without being broken up in your yard and the locomotive turned on a turntable which you have yet to locate). [:)]

However, if you would like a reversing loop (you need only one), you can work it in in the upper left corner with the burgundy coloured tracks. As your mainline curves down and to the right, you can put a left-hand turnout there with the diverging route curving up to join the siding (near where you have a number 3). I hope you can understand what I've tried to describe.

(BTW, even when you click on your images, they don't get very large and are, therefore, still very difficult to make out any details. Perhaps if you uploaded larger sized images to begin with ?)

[selector]

In other words, by building realism into your track plan, you build 'legs' for your layout. You will quickly tire of seeing trains loop again and again, with an occasional reverse onto a siding or spur to stop momentarily at one or two functional sites, like a mine or a plant of some kind. Loco maintenance is always important, as is car classification and the switching that goes with it. To enjoy your layout for many months, you need to create a theme that has strong appeal for you, and to then engineer that theme into your track plan and layout scenics and structure.

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, you are telling me you want switching, but the way the layout is designed, it's great for watching your train run. There are 2 places to set out cars, and those place are accessible from one direction, but not the other. Your yard as well is the same direction. You have one passing siding which means that trains must either run the same direction or be very lucky in arriving at the passing siding at relatively the same time.

If you want switching, you need to plan for it. For instance, if you are going to have a brewery, you can pick-up beer and drop off empties, and there's always enough beer made for you to pick-up just like at a liquor store--just magically there. That is one level. Or you can make deliveries of hops, barley, chemicals, glass, aluminum, etc. You can't really all these put these things on your layout, there's not enough space. So to maximize your operations, you need a staging yard the represents the rest of the world where the hos, barley, glass, etc comes from.

Ideally, the trains come from the rest of the world into your yard, you switch them into outgoing trains that will go, to among other places, your brewery. That train can either pick-up empties and or full cars of beer. Some of the beer will go to a local distributor, and the rest of it goes, along with the empties to the rest of the world--organized at your yard into through freights.

So, if switching is your focus, you need an operational plan. If you just want to set out a car here and there, maybe move cars around the yard without a real reason, you can do that too. But it won't be as interesting.