Digitrax DCC

[robengland]

Hey I like your site, BRVRR.

Despite being an electrical engineer by training and a software engineer by profession, I am famously not technical, as my colleagues would attest.
I hate reading manuals and I hate having to remember numbers and codes. As soon as I got into adjusting speeds on locos or installing sound decoders I drove myself nuts with the Zephyr. I had an old Pentium 1 PC that nobody wanted, I downloaded JMRI and whacked it in, bought a Locobuffer and the sun came out [:D] It remembers your loco roster for you (just what kind of chip did you put in that 2-8-0 year before last?). It remembers the settings on each loco so if you DO have to reset, you can put it all back again with one button click. You can copy one loco's settings to another easily. But most of all it presents the CVs graphically, with pulldowns to select all the values and speed tables shown as a graph and all the optional CVs and defaults preloaded by manufacturer and model. No *&^&*% manuals to look up. It's not like two different cars, it's like the difference between walking and driving.
I think DCC should be simple, and I think JMRI has made it closer. Then again I also think a VCR should be simple and after 30 years we still haven't got that...

[BRVRR]

stltrains,
Again, the gurus are getting carried away. With a basic Zephyr you can program any programmable CV and read it back, if the decoder is capable. As FCNota said, resetting the decoder to correct mistakes or start over is easy.
Sure, I would like to hook the layout to my PC and make programing and even operation easier, but the Zephyr (or any other fully capable DCC starter system) will give you capabilities that we only dreamed of 5-8 years ago.
An additional feature of the Zephyr is the 'Jump Ports' where you can attach a standard DC power pack and use it as a throttle. I have two attached to my Zephyr. Pictures on my website, link is in my signature. Once on site just press the Layout button.

[robengland]

Great point FCnota, if you want DCC to be anywhere near painless, you MUST use a PC for programming decoders. As a bonus you get extra throttles (not walkaround of course - anchored to the mouse) and free CTC panels with no wiring!!
You need something to connect your bus to the PC. For Digitrax use a LocoBuffer, it is better than the Digitrax product. I think they are about $100. This might seem a lot but believe me, they are worhthevery penny for what they get you. Because once you have one, you can connect any old PC you can scrounge (free or near enough to it), install Java if it doesn't already have it (free), download JMRI (free), and away you go. You'll never look back.

[FCnota]

I was out of model railroading for years, got back into it (thanks to my wifes uncle) and went straight to DCC. I also bought a Chief with a advanced throttle (DT300?). Listen, if I could figure it out, anybody can. Using it right out of the box was easy enough and, with one engine, I started playing around with changing CV's. I used 08/008 alot!! But thats the nice thing. If you do something you don't like, reset it! No harm done. I did switch to using an old laptop for programing. I downloaded a free program and purchased a Locobuffer II and now programming is as easy as reading this post! I think going DCC was the best move yet. My son, who is now 7, has his own throttle (a UT 1) but he figured out how to use it by himself! Smart kid (takes after his mom). Don't be afraid of something being too complicated. Take your time, read the book, post some questions, and pretty soon you"ll be the one giving the answers! Good luck.

[robengland]

Yeah agree, selector. We are on a tangent. User interface is not the only reason to buy technology. I raved on about this on another thread. My business is software and the same arguments apply:
Never mind how it demos (user interface), look at how much expertise is out there (especially among those you know or local to you), how much info can you get ready access to, and most of all how strong is the vendor's position in the market? A dominant position (like Digitrax or Lenz or perhaps EasyDCC) means more third party products (eg LogicRail, LocoBuffer...), more vendors providing compatibility, more people competing to sell it to you, and more chance of the supplier still being in business when you need support or more components later on.
That's why I bought Digitrax and why i'm staying with them (though I sometimes look wistfully at Lenz).

[selector]

stltrains, the others have been truthful, even to the extent of resorting to gobbledy-gook in attempting to assure you that you will be pleased...eventually...with Digitrax. [:D] (I thought it was funny that Randy and others broke off on a treatise dealing with abstruse machinations not often used by dilletantes such as I).

The fact is that these boys are right. It might be disconcerting when reading the Martian text, maybe even the fourth time, but I managed to finally put a loco on the track, flip the power switch up, and begin reading and doing the step-by-steps until...Holy Cow!!...the locos's moving!!!

Like computers and motorcycles, ya gotta start somewhere, and Digitrax has done a pertty good job, if unituitive, at getting the newbie up and running. The manual even has a "Look, I just wanna run trains, okay?" early section to get you happy with the system. You can tinker with it, as we all have done, later. There'll be a few sweaty moments, right fellas, but it all turns out good in the end.

Go ahead with your purchase.

[rrinker]

Well, you can always buy or build a FRED - they ARE loconet throttles, after all....

The general concensus is that Dispatching isn't really necessary when you are done running a loco. Setting the speed to 0 and deselecting it, or selecting another loco, will still allow the slot to be purged. Stealing, I think they made more difficult on purpose. Don't want to have a newbie start grabbing everyone else's loco because they dialed the wrong number and hit the button.

Perhaps what is needd is yet another product, an 'intermediate' throttle - maybe a simple one-line display, SINGLE knob, not two like a DT400, the reverser toggle like the UT4, and a few extra buttons to allow direct access to any loco. The problem is it would require a new case designed and built - I'll bet the cases used for the UT series and the DT100/200/300, as well as the larger DT400, are standard cases from some manufacturer - this could be why the UT4 doesn't have more buttons, it would need a larger case, and if there isn't an in-between size available from the case vendor, it would be custom and therefore quite pricey.

As for turning off - you only need to turn off the radio throttles, although the best way to do that is still pop the battery just like all the others. Non-radio throttles shouldn't need a battery if you hook some power feeds to your UPs

--Randy

--Randy

[robengland]

Randy, I agree about the no-win thing. I'd love to get me a DT400 as I personally prefer a one-button-for-each-thing design but that is intimidating for newbies. So I like the fact they stripped the UT4 down to just run trains. And the UT4 has fixed a number of things, like an intuitive knob, and "momentum" built in to reversing, and a nice obvious direction switch (if a little exposed to accidental knocks and damage). But the UT4 was touted as a simple device for beginners. Here are some examples of "simple":

To release, or dispatch, a loco under current UT4 control:
1 Unplug the UT4 from the LocoNet port
2 Press and hold the Dispatch key
3 Plug the throttle back into a LocoNet port.

Just pressing the "dispatch" button might have been easier to remember. Likewise:
To ‘Steal’ a loco:
1 Unplug the UT4 from the LocoNet port
2 Dial up the address of the loco you want to steal
3 Press and hold the ‘STEAL’ key while plugging the throttle into the
LocoNet jack. Note: To steal or dispatch another loco, you must unplug the
UT4 and repeat the above sequence

At least the F7-12 keys use a nice simple Shift button and are clearly labeled. But how about this:
The ‘Hold’ feature can be set by holding the F2 key down for 15 seconds.
15 seconds? Ever tried holding a key for 15 seconds? Who has a spare 15 seconds while operating anything less than a club-sized layout?

or my favourite:
To turn the unit off, simply press and hold any function key down and turn any address selector to the next digit.
"Off "would have been nice. ANd how long before a beginner user does that accidentally and thinks they've busted the unit? I regularly get beginners putting the Zephyr or the DT300 into internal switch configuring modes by hitting an odd combination of buttons.
Also I know they had buckets of feedback about the need for a physical power switch to save batteries but it is still not there so I have to hack one in myself like I did with the DT300.

I'll continue to use Digitrax mostly because it works, there's lots of stuff available, and everyone else I know does (so we can share ideas and help, swap gear, take throttles along on visits etc). But I'll continue to hammer them over their usability design.

In the immortal words of Crocodile Dundee (almost) "That's not a simple throttle. THIS is a simple throttle" "
http://www.mackaymodels.co.uk/RocoMaus.htm
or even this
http://www.nord-com.net/stefan.bormann/dcc/diy/fred/fred_e.html

[davekelly]

Randy,

Thank you so much for the above post. I guess if you had a cornfield meet, it ain't no big deal if I have one!!

Seriously, I love reading your posts concerning DCC. It's guys like you - freely willing to share your experience and answer what must seem to you to be the simplest of questions - that's convinced me to go the DCC route as soon as I save up the bucks!

Dave

[Anonymous]

If a stupid redneck can have trains running in 15 minutes, anybody can do it.

QUOTE: Originally posted by stltrains

How easy is digitrax' dcc system to use. The manual seems to make it look kinda hard.

[ClinchValleySD40]

It's best to check out all the systems first and see which one fits you best. As mentioned, all have their manuals available for download. If possible, find some people local to you and do a hands on.

[BRVRR]

stltrains,
Go for it. Its easy. I had my Zephyr up and running in just a few minutes. It has been installed and running flawlessly for nearly 3 years now. Digitrax has a 'quick start' section in the front of their manual to get you going quickly with a standard DC loco on address "00". If you have one DCC equipped, so much the better. A couple of wires, selecting a loco, and away you go. I have never regretted the change from DC. Just wait until you get your first sound equipped loco.
Good luck!

[rrinker]

The UT4 is designed to just run trains. That's it. The design was completely influenced by participants in the Digitrax group on Yahoo- ideas were solicited fromt he members and this is what we got.
Try a DT400 - there are NO doubled-up keys, there's a seperate key for everything. As easy to use as the Zephyr console - want to select a loco: Hit LOCO, key in the number, hit ENTER.
User-interface is really a no-win situation. Half the people,. when seeing a couple dozen buttons, immediately think "too complicated" That same bunch, once they see that 'few buttons' means 'multiple function buttons' go bonkers over how hard the 'simple' interface with fewer buttons is.
I will say the very first time I got my hands on a Digitrax system it was a DT300 throttle and having read the manuals, I had no problem selecting a loco on each knob. And no problem crashign them into one another, as unbeknownst to myself, one had momentum programmed into the decoder and one did not. And it was a simple 18" radius demo oval, so there wasn't much room. Oops.

--Randy

[robengland]

The basic stuff is easy enough, and even the Zephyr programming can be mastered fairly easily, but in general I think Digitrax user interface design sucks. It is designed for geeks by geeks. (I can only speak for Digitrax as that is what I use, so I can't compare with other brands).

There are many examples of stuff that I invariably have to go back to the manuals every time because Digitrax control it with an esoteric sequence of keystrokes. This is especially so in the handheld throttles (I've got a DT300 and a UT4).
Here's a few:
Releasing an address on the Zephyr
Clearing the stack of addresses in the Zephyr to free up all the slots
Function keys on the DT300 - try remembering what combination is F7
Programming addresses into the DT300's left knob: (click the left knob to select that controller but then remember to turn the RIGHT knob to select the low order two digits...)
Powering down the UT4 (you would think a "power Off" button would be kinda useful wouldn't you?)

And don't get me started on trying to set up a DS54 to control a Tortoise!!!

I use JMRI and a PC a lot so I can have a useful interface to the Digitrax system. I'm sure it is very robust and well architected but they don't have a clue about designing for usability. I had high hopes for the UT4 but it has been a real let down.

[dacort]

When I got my Chief, I'd never used DCC before. I got it running very quickly and had no trouble. My layout was wired for cab control already, so I just used the "A" cab for the DCC. I'm really happy with it. I've spent far more time installing decoders and lights in locomotives than I have messing with the system itself.

The Digitrax manual has a quick start section also, makes it easy to get going.

[SpaceMouse]

I got my Zeohyr up in about 30 minutes and that included installing a SoundTrax in my 2-8-0 to have something to test on it. It also included setting usp a program track.

Really easy. But I was already wired in with DC. Just changed the leads.

[Anonymous]

Hi

Maybe you read too much, too quickly. Like alot of things in life, DCC gets as complicated as you want it to be. However, to get started is easy.

I started with an "advanced" set ....... the NCE Powerhouse Pro. I just got the manual out, and was reminded of the 20 minute Quick Start in the front of the manual. You are up and running a DCC ready locomotive in less than 20 minutes. And you slowly, or quickly if you prefer, learn more from there. I would imagine all the DCC sets let you start slow like this. Honest, its not hard to get going.

Any question you have will be promptly answered here at one of these forums ...... simple or complicated questions. There are no stupid questions. Any problem you may encounter, many people here have already solved it, and are eager to help you.

While I did download the various system manuals to study before I made the decision as to which DCC system to buy, I will only claim to know the NCE system really well. I really can not imagine anyone having problems learning to use it.

Have fun. It is not brain surgery.

Jim

[howmus]

With any piece of electronics, there is a learning curve. Digitrax is really not hard at all to learn. Take it one step at at time and before long it will feel very comfortable. Actually Digitrax's manual and on line help is quite good and simple to follow. If you can master the TV remote, you can handle the Digitrax System on your layout. Have fun!

[tcf511]

I'm building my first layout and bought a Zephyr kit. It was extremely easy to set up. I haven't tried any complicated programming yet but it let me run trains right away without nearly the effort in terms of wiring. You can do it.

[soumodeler]

The Zephyr is extremly easy to use. All you do is hook it up to the track and you are ready to run. It is more complicated if you have a large layout with all the fancy stuff, but for a simple loop of track, I helped a friend get his up in about thirty minutes. Programming is simple once you get the hang of it and you can get a lot more complicated with stuff like MUing and speed control. Go for it. If we could do it, you can.

soumodeler
-----------------
The Southern Serves the South!

[Anonymous]

How easy is digitrax' dcc system to use. The manual seems to make it look kinda hard.