Hand-laid rail vs. sectional or flex track approach

[Anonymous]

I think I'm going to do a few of these http://www.internettrains.com/micencod836t.html to try it out, also where did you find the tie plates?

[dinwitty]

I will short and sweet an answer. search my nick for handlaying pics... anyways...

I handbuilt doubleslips, mostly it saved me money. Then I went and handlaid all my track on a layout I was building. It worked. Way cheaper.
But today, I will use the best detailed flex around unless I need custom trackwork.
I want the best detail possible.

I found tie plates you could spike into, but thats veeery tedious work.

The layout I will build I will take my time and build the scenes and get them to look right.
plus be able to operate it with lotsa fun.

cheers.

[Anonymous]

are there any books I can buy that are specifically about handlaying track?

[geod]

I started making my own tracks in the early 1960's because it looked and worked so much better than anything I could buy. I continue to handlay because of the planning option of putting a trunout anywhere, and because it DOES look better, and of course it runs smoother. It does look better because ties, ballast, and rails can be colored and weathered individually BEFORE permanent installation. I was a narrow gauger for years and that's the kind of track I make now, in HO standard gauge. If I were modeling contemporary RR'ing I would use flextrack and turnouts. Handlaying isn't for everyone because of the skills needed to make reliable tracks and especially turnouts.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerstripe
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/index.php
I saw the demo at the show in Cincinati and was amazed by how quick and easy it is.

Ok, I've looked over the web site but still can't tell exactly what is included in the kit, and how is he fastening the rails to the wooden ties? One spike at a time with needle nose pliers? I could not find any sort of spiker or spike stapler in the individual tool list.

[Anonymous]

Hmmmm...I'm trying to decide which I would find more painful: 1.) Handlaying track or 2.) having bamboo chutes shoved up under my fingernails. It seem too close to call.

[potlatcher]

I just posted a reply to a similar question on the General Discussion forum. Here's a link: http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41705

I am enjoying handlaying track and would recommend it to almost anyone willing to spend a little time building something by hand.

Tom

[fwright]

Whether you will have problems matching the PC board ties really depends on how darkly stained your wood ties are. Most commercial flex track uses fairly dark color ties - either brown or dark gray/black - to represent freshly creosoted ties. (I remember freshly creosoted wood being a very dark brown in my younger days - none of the commercial track is a dark enough brown.) Coloring the top of a PC board tie to match a fairly dark opaque color is not that difficult. New ties would be especially prevalent on turnouts due their higher maintenance and loading, particularly under the frog and other key areas. So a few new-looking, freshly creosoted ties would fit right in.

However, I model turn-of-the-century (1900) Western short line and narrow guage. Given the abundance of local timber, ties were generally untreated. Ties that been in use for any length of time faded to the light gray of beach driftwood. Coloring that copper surface to driftwood gray or fresh cut wood is more difficult/almost impossible.

Fred Wright

[tstage]

Fred,

So you are saying that the PC board inserts DO need some kind of disguising in order to make them look more like the prototypical wood ties. Do you find this to be a challange? Even after painting, would there still a noticable difference to someone unfamiliar with the Fast Track product?

Thanks, Fred! [:)] This has been very informative.

Tom

[fwright]

Although it wasn't obvious in my 1st response, I would favor minimizing the number of PC board ties in your finished turnouts. I have seen two ways to do this using turnout kits that are held together by the PC board ties.

1) Instead of putting the PC board ties in the traditional position underneath the rail, solder them as "keepers" to the top of the rail. Lay your turnout on all wood ties (except for throwbar) and spike or glue. Then unsolder the PC board keepers on top, and clean up as necessary with file.

2) You could pull some or all of the PC board ties out one at a time after spiking the turnout to wood ties. Problems with this approach are that the wood ties must be slighlty higher than the PC board ties, and must be a very consistent height to be able to slide a wood replacement in. Second, gluing rail to wood ties would be impractical due to the number of reheating operations taking place removing PC board ties.

So if the 1st option is not taken you are back to 1) ensuring PC board ties are the same width as the wood ones 2) painting them after installation to match the wood stain as closely as possible.

Fred Wright

[fwright]

Personally, I only use the PC board ties for throwbars on my turnouts. But I still try to make them look like wood. First, I cut mine narrow enough to be the same width as my wood ties. Second, after the rails are soldered to the PC board tie and any gaps in the foil cut, I paint them. Have had no problem with paint adhering. I have been using natural, unstained redwood ties - although my stock is about to run out and I don't know where to get any more - so matching the color was a little problematic at first. I finally found a mixture of stain and paint and thinner derived from my rail painting color that seemed to work. I have thought of creating "wood grain" in the foil surface with a wire brush, but haven't actually tried this yet.

I should note that I paint my rail a rust color before laying, wiping off the inside corner initially. Since anywhere there is soldering there is almost always filing, so the paint rarely gets in the way - one of the benefits to spiking track rather than soldering or gluing. If it does, I just scrape or file as needed. Painting the rail prior to installation avoids getting the color on the ties unrealistically.

Another technique I may try in the future after reading several forums on hand-laying track is moving the PC board throwbar underneath the ballast (foil side down), and using vertical metal pins through the PC board soldered to the points to move the points. Stryene rod throw bars would be visible, looking much more like the prototype.

Fred Wright

[tstage]

I checked out the Handlaidtrack.com web site and was very impressed with the looks of the product, albeit pricey. My one question for those of you who have used their product: How does the copper circuit board material (used to construct the turnout and keep it from deforming) compare next to the wooden ties? Seems to me that there would be a stark difference between the two materials visually that would be difficult to mask.

Tom

[Anonymous]

The first layouts I saw as a kid were all hand-laid. I've just handlaid a couple stretches of track and one turnout. The equipment goes through the turnout very smoothly - it's very pleasing to see.

In this day of RTR, I think it's very cool to do some things the old fashioned way.

Something that commercial turnouts/track will never have are:

1) Very smooth-flowing curved turnouts of any size

2) Real wood ties. There's something about real stained wood ties that looks very pleasing to me.

As someone said above, check out www.handlaidtrack.com. There are some pics of turnouts on that site that are simply frighteningly awesome.

[dacort]

I first got into handlaid track back when I was in N scale, so I could use code 40 and 55 rail. At the time there was no commercial stuff available in that size except for flex track. I have since moved on to HO, but I still handlay my turnouts.

All I buy are spikes, ties, and rail and fabricate everything else for a turnout. I think the cost is probably around $2. Compare that to $15-$20 for a commercial turnout. I would rather put my hobby money elsewhere, so I handlay.

I don't mind that it takes a while longer to get the track down. I figure once it's down, it's down for years so it really doesn't matter if it took another day or two to accomplish.

Rail prices have gotten to the point where there isn't much benefit to handlaying long stretches of track, so I use flex for those.

There isn't that much difference in appearance to my eye. If you're obsessed with tie plates and want to spend money on all those little details, the cost benefit of handlaying is going to disappear. Personally I feel this gets into diminishing returns quickly, a lot of work for not much benefit. I like my turnouts as they are and I think they look fine. They're not contest pieces. They're working track, and I value good operation over nitpicky details.

I also get a lot of personal satisfaction out of handlaying turnouts. I'd like to try a crossing sometime, but so far I haven't had a layout that's needed one.

[ARTHILL]

I've done both and now used flex glued to WS foam. I was challenged by the skill level required for handlaid but as long as I enjoyed the process it was fun. I did some unussual stuff. It never worked as well as purchaseed. I may try again, when I get all my scenery and building finished. But only for the fun of the process or if I get into precision detailing.

[fwright]

Rather than get into lengthy discussions of techniques of hand-laying track here, I'll point to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/handlaidtrack/ . There, the different approaches and techniques with pros and cons are usually thoroughly discussed. After lurking and occasionally posting, I have a better feel for why my approach suits my skills and inclinations. I lay everything (turnouts, etc) on site because I can't measure the situation accurately enough to take and build at the workbench, and have it fit correctly when I come back to the layout :-). For others, the track and turnout kits are extremely helpful.

The really useful tool I saw at the http://www.handlaidtrack.com/index.php site was the rail bender. Thanks for the link. I could use that to help me lay more consistent small radius curves (15in - 18in in HO and HOn3), where eye-balling the curves to a centerline can generate a few spots of sub-minimum radius. Just got to remember to cut the unbent ends off before spiking the rail down.

[wxtoad]

Morning, Tom,

Glad you asked this question - I really enjoyed the responses it generated. Figured I'd go ahead and add mine:

1. What got you into or why did you decide to begin laying your own rail or turnouts?

I'd say it was because I was cheap and the time. My first hand-laid track was on a little 1x6' switching layout with stub switches. I came to enjoy the satisfaction of doing it. And as others have noted, back in the "good ole days" it was hard to find the smaller rail in flextrack.

2. How would you rate the complexity and/or talent needed to accomplish doing it well?

It's like any other facet of the hobby - if you have the interest, you can easily learn how.

3. How long did it take you before you felt comfortable or competent at it?

Probably by the time I was on my 3rd layout, I felt I had it down pretty well.

4. How does the cost of handlaying rails and/or turnouts yourself compare to buying track that is commercially available?

You can save a few bucks. I developed a compromise approach whereby I handlaid the ties and track, but I used the BK Enterprises points and frogs, laying my own outside stock rails. I found I didn't have the patience for filing my own points and frogs.

5. What difference did it make visually or operationally to your layout?

Operationally it probably doesn't make much difference at all. Visually I like it much better. I model older, small-type RR'ing, and I like the not-so-perfectly straight track and rails that I get from hand-laying.

6. Is there a down downside to handlaying your own track?

That just depends on your temperament and interests. I'd recommend trying it out on just a little piece of something, such as a diorama or a little shelf layout. If you find you like it, you will have had some practice and can see where you need to make any changes in your techniques.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

1. What got you into or why did you decide to begin laying your own rail or turnouts?
Cost of prefab turnouts. I needed about 70 turnouts. By building them myself they cost about 2 bucks each. Commercial ones 15 to 20. Also when I started there were no coe 83 commercial turnouts available. This was also a way to give me more modeling time for the buck. I also find it very relaxing and quite satisfying. When you see a train or freight car pass over what was once a pile of rail, ties and spikes you get a real feeling of accomplishment.

2. How would you rate the complexity and/or talent needed to accomplish doing it well?
Not very hard. Just attention to detail like any other modeling effort.

3. How long did it take you before you felt comfortable or competent at it?
After the third one.

4. How does the cost of handlaying rails and/or turnouts yourself compare to buying track that is commercially available?
See # 1.

5. What difference did it make visually or operationally to your layout?
Visually not much. In fact commercial ones look better. But when it comes to track geometry, handlaying is the best. If you need a # 6 3/4 left turnout or a # 7 crossover where ya going to buy it?

6. Is there a down downside to handlaying your own track? Only if you are pressed for time.

[tstage]

What a cool web site! I've already bookmarked it. Thanks, tigerstripe!

Tom

[tigerstripe]

For everyone that is to scared to try handlaying track this is the cure.
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/index.php
I saw the demo at the show in Cincinati and was amazed by how quick and easy it is, he assured me it was "idiot proof" well even this idiot got it to work on the first try!
Here's the catch the gauge / tool set isn't cheap $140 but after that you can crank out a turnout for $2-$3.

[selector]

I really enjoyed this thread. My hat is off to all who participated. [^][tup]

[tstage]

Thank you everyone - particularly fwright and Texas Zepher - for your refreshing and honest appraisal of the benefits and downsides of handlaying track. That's exactly what I was looking for.

I think if I do decide to try it someday, I'll practice it on a small diarama or piece of scrap board before going whole hog trying to install it on a layout. The challenge of trying it, as well as the rewards of successfully learning and applying it, are intriguing to me. I'll definitely spend some more time studying and learning all the facets about the subject before making the jump though. I'm in no rush.

Anyway, many thanks again for everyone's input! [:)]

Tom

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage
1. What got you into or why did you decide to begin laying your own rail or turnouts?

Our club required it. I would have never tried it otherwise. Then I realized not only was it easy, but that I liked doing it, and was good at it.

QUOTE: 2. How would you rate the complexity and/or talent needed to accomplish doing it well?

Just laying track is almost a no brainer if one has the appropriate tools. The more three point track gauges the better. Turnouts require moderate skills (mostly precision cutting and filing, a bit of soldering and good tool use). But in my opinion it is still easier than one would think. I always found the throw bar pivot(s) to be the hardest part. One must really understand the NMRA or similar track gauges for flange depth, guard rail spacing, etc. Many people make up for poor turnout construction with massive amounts of solder.

QUOTE: 3. How long did it take you before you felt comfortable or competent at it?

Depends on the person. It was my third or fourth. Some people have built (tried to) 10 or so and just never seem to get it.....

QUOTE: 4. How does the cost of handlaying rails and/or turnouts yourself compare to buying track that is commercially available?

Well may be very cheap, but takes soooo much more time. Even though I enjoy it, I would rather be running trains. Plus it is getting harder to find parts and tools. I don't even think Kadee makes their spiker gun any more.

QUOTE: 5. What difference did it make visually or operationally to your layout?

90% of the people don't even notice. The other 10% are model railroaders and 4% of them don't care. 5% will have valid comments that need to be fixed if you want to photograph the layout. 1% are the nit pickers that are going to find something wrong reguardless of what you do.

Operationally, I have found that improperly hand built turnouts will require more maintenance. The old Atlas Custom line turnouts have been the most operationally reliable. I can think of only one repair on an Altas in our clubs ummmm 21 years (The club only required hand built in visible parts of the layout. The entire staging area is hidden and thus done with flex track and the Atlas turnouts). The hand built ones have needed work more times than I can count. Some of it because they were built by people just learning, but mostly because we let the throw bars just rest on homosote. Through the years the homosote gets "dust bunnies" under the bar and makes them hard to throw. Now I always put a styrene "plate" under the throw bar to keep it slippery an easy to clean.

QUOTE: 6. Is there a down downside to handlaying your own track?

Time to build, finding pieces/parts/tools, and if they aren't done well - more time to repair. Oh and they are all HOT frogs so a few more gaps and wiring is needed over any thing with insulated frogs.

[ericboone]

From a cost standpoint, flex track and hand laid track are dead even, but the hand laid version has no tie plates. If you buy photo etched tieplates for your hand laid track, commercial flex track is much cheaper. Hand laid turnouts are much cheaper (~2 to 3) than commercial turnouts, even if you by the the tie plates and other details.

[fwright]

I have/had a very limited budget and very limited space for model railroading. I also tend very much to be a lone wolf MR. Given these realities, a layout that features "operation" with multiple operators ain't going to happen. For those of us with the small layouts - 4x8 or less in HO - obviously much of the fun is in building. Since 4 or 5 locomotives are all I will ever need, I can spend my time building kits. The same goes for track. With a small layout, hand laying track is not an overwhelming exercise.

Also, when I started hand-laid track looked better - there just wasn't Code 55 flex track readily available. Also, very few modelers using commercial turnouts ever really disguised the joints with flex track (still tends to be true today) well - you could always see where the commerical turnout started and ended in the photos. Today, for 20th century mainline modeling, commercial track is indeed more realistic. But using the Proto87 components you can be just as good hand-laying.

I prefer to model short lines and narrow guage at the turn of the century. In this case, I don't need tie plates, and I don't want my ties as uniform as commercial track. In my particular case, handlaid track is actually more realistic, especially using the scale or near-scale Proto87 spikes.

I am not particularly talented with my hands - I would classify myself as average or below average in modeling skills. I bought a Keystone Shay and motorizing kit despite the advice of my LHS, and I'm scared it will be beyond my capability. But I decided to give hand laying track a try, and haven't looked back since. I tried it, it looked good, and the trains stayed on the track! And I was proud of myself!

I can lay a half circle of track in less than an evening (2 hour session). In the same time, I can do one turnout. I did approach my first turnout with great trepidation. I used an April 1963 article by Jack Work as my inspiration, and by God, all my trains ran through it without derailing!

A couple of times my first placement of spikes and rail wasn't good enough for my NMRA guage and eye, and I had to realign and respike. In one or two places, the spike holes in the ties got enlarged from the re-spiking and I had to replace the ties. This was especially true at rail ends on my 18in radius curves because I hadn't learned to solder enough pieces of rail together to go around the half-circle. No big deal. I just patiently rework until it's right.

Cost of handlaid turnouts is certainly much less than commercial products. I'm not so sure there is much cost difference between hand-laying and flex track.

The big difference visually is that my track and turnouts "flow" together; they are very much an integrated whole. After building an oval with a passing siding and 2 spurs, I felt capable of cutting in a curved turnout at any place I felt it was needed. This opens up possibilities in small layouts that otherwise wouldn't be there.

Whether hand-laying track is for you is mostly a question of your attitude towards it. If you view hand-laying track as onerous or over-whelming or as a chore, then you will likely become frustrated by it. On the other hand, I find the patience and working with my hands to produce something I can see, and that works well, to be a great way to wind down after the office. Normally, I'm a very impatient person. But when I'm working on the railroad, I go into a state of quiet patience and bliss.

One way I have used to avoid impatience with my layout construction is to have a portable, sectional track oval stored against the wall in the basement for those occasions when I just have to run trains!

[bogp40]

Both flex and handlaid are done at my club. Hand laying track can be very tedius and time consuming, but many times you will need a special turnout that is not available commercially. Also, if there end up being any track/ gauge problems, they are easily repaired with handlaid. To handlay you need stable roadbed to glue the ties to. Many use homosote, we use 1/4" clear pine that is milled in our shop. The pine with pine spline has proven to be very stable under all temp and humidity conditions. Rail gapping is no more critical than flex, but styrene spacers must be placed where isolation is needed [turnouts, reversing blocks etc]. The rail on handlaid can move more freely than w/ flex.
One other advantage of handlaid is, when I install my bridges, I allow the bridge track, ME or Central Valley, rails to extend beyond the bridge abutments and spike on as many wood ties as the rail length allows [no more than 4-6"]. This anchors the bridges quite well and much less chance for accidents due to bumping the bridge structure.
As far as appearance, many feel that ME, Walthers[Shinihara] etc, has a far better realistic look when properly ballasted and sceniced. The Central Valley system is too much for me but is the best in appearance.
Try a bit of handlaying, maybe on an inconspicuous siding, and see how you like it. You, too, could mix and match as you see fit.
Bob K.

[tstage]

Karl,

I was mainly asking from the aspect of performance, as well as the ease and looks of doing it.. I should go back in indicate that in the post.

Tom

[ukguy]

Cant answer the pros/cons Tom, sorry. If I were to hand lay track I think I would only do it for competition diorama type projects ( not that I will be doing any of those) but after 'commercial track is ballasted, weathered, beaten and worn I dont think there can be that much visual difference without looking REALLY closely, to handlay an entire layout would be a colosal task, theres too much stuff to do already IMO, but to say that you did it ALL would be a worthwhile feather in some modellers caps. are you thinking of taking this route??

[tstage]

I want to fire off some questions to those of you who handlay or prefer to handlay your own track and/or turnouts, rather than going the commercial pre-made route:

1. What got you into or why did you decide to begin laying your own rail or turnouts?
2. How would you rate the complexity and/or talent needed to accomplish doing it well?
3. How long did it take you before you felt comfortable or competent at it?
4. How does the cost of handlaying rails and/or turnouts yourself compare to buying track that is commercially available?
5. What difference did it make visually or operationally to your layout?
6. Is there a down downside to handlaying your own track?

Thanks ahead of time for your responses. I appreciate your feedback. [:)]

Tom