Here's my finished (I think) layout plan. I'm ready to build. Please be brutal!!!!!

[dtbowyer]

OK, after mucking around with planning a layout for the past several years [:I] I think I finally have it. Please be as picky as you want. (And from what I've seen, some of you can be darn picky! [:D]) Any suggestions and criticisms are welcome! Let me give you some background. This is HO, and the layout size is 9 x 22.5 in my attic. Total attic space is 9 by about 40, but hey, I have to put the Christmas decorations somewhere, and I don't want to bite off more than I can chew! This will be built on 2.5 x 8 tables, plus the two 4x4 tables so I can move it some day. (It's a rental house.) I'll be constructing with my nine year old son (although I think he plans to mainly wait until he can run a train). I will mostly be operating by myself, along with my son on weekends and perhaps a friend or two of his.

As you can see, it is essentially a folded dogbone with the end loops stacked. The yard is in the middle of the dogbone, with the upper portion (about 6" elevation) running up a long grade behind the yard. Those are 2 hidden staging tracks under the grade. There will be a couple of more on the other side, but they cluttered the plan. The greenish area is the upper loop, and the sandy color is the base level. Gray track lower loop, green track upper. I also put in a short, steep branch to a couple of small mines or logging areas. Setting is Eastern US, with coal action and a port. I know that might be the king of compression, but it's what I want! OK, enough about this spaghetti bowl, tell me what you think. Oh yeah, my modeling skills range from beginner to not very much better!



Thank you for any assistance.

David

[jwar]

Loooks good to me, very interesting ...go for it....John

[SpaceMouse]

Hi,

I have four suggestions and a question.

Suggestion one. Logging is space intensive. Stick with the mining theme and make a grand show piece industry of it.

Suggestion 2: You might want to put a runaround so that you can put out cars on the lower most pier without tying up your port yard.

Suggestion 3: Same thing with the city. If you use the yard lead for switching (runaround) you will be tying up both the yard lead and the main.

Suggestion 4: Instead of folded dogbone, why not do a loop to loop and have a siding in the connecting area. Then when you operate with your son, you will have to yield to the siding for each other, and thereby increasing your operations, and the same time teach your some a little more about the railroad. If either of you are running by yourself, you still will have continuous running and be a little more prototypical.

Question? Why are there two stacked siding in the mining area?

I'm kinda rushed now. I'll look at it again when I get home.

[dtbowyer]

Chip,

Thanks for your comments. (You, too, John!)

You are absolutely right about logging - I was just thinking about a real small unmodeled operation that sends a couple of cars down the mountain every couple of days. Mining makes more sense, plus I have a boatload of hoppers to use!

I agree about the runaround at the port, I just haven't figured out where to put it. I will probably make the lead double-ended "across the bay".

At the main yard, there is a short runaround parrelel to the ladder, plus I can use the turntable as a runaround. Both A/D tracks are double-ended, too, so I can always use that. I just wish I could have squeezed a roundhouse in, too!

With the folded dogbone, I can get twice as much mainline. Actually, I guess it is more technically a loop to loop, now that I look at it! I "borrowed" the idea from Armstrong's Realistic Guide to Operations. The layout he did in the back as a case study is cool - I debated trying to make that work for me. The lower route will be east, and the upper west. He suggests using the hidden loops as layover tracks for trains that went somewhere else. Part of the upper loop is hidden (yellow track), but it doesn't show up that way.

The 2 sidings at the mine town are my attempt at a small coal marshalling "yard". I use the term yard very generously here! I'll park an engine up here (somewhere) to gather from the various mines, then a road switcher will bring empties and trade for loads. I wish I could do a double industry for that, but I don't know where!

Again, thanks for your ideas! To paraphrase a great general, I know my layout plan will only survive the laying of the first piece of track. Then it's time to improvise!

David

[Jetrock]

Actually the track plan looks pretty darn good, in my opinion! Lots of potential for operation, curves could be broader but not bad as-is, and some big scenic areas with potential for both operation and continuous running. I think you've got a winner there!

[Anonymous]

Looks great to me. What size loco are you planning on running? Curves could be a smidge tight, but other than that it looks great.
James[C):-)]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dtbowyer
You are absolutely right about logging - I was just thinking about a real small unmodeled operation that sends a couple of cars down the mountain every couple of days. Mining makes more sense, plus I have a boatload of hoppers to use!

But logging equipment is so interesting. I think you should go with the tracks you have as being mines, and do the "couple of small mines" as logging. You can get to them with a switchback from the "mining town".

QUOTE: I agree about the runaround at the port, I just haven't figured out where to put it. I will probably make the lead double-ended "across the bay".

No that would ruin the uniquness of that industry move. How about two curved turnouts joining the main lead partway through the "across the bay". OR since the track is sort of wasted because of the run around anyway, Make the port only three tracks to give it some breathing room and use that part of the ladder to make the run around turnout going the other direction.

QUOTE: The 2 sidings at the mine town are my attempt at a small coal marshalling "yard".

You could just as easily marshal on a single ended siding. In fact if you think about it the wye is also a "run around" too. The loco just changes direction while it is doing it. You don't even need either of the tracks in the "mining town" to be double ended.

[dehusman]

You also could lose a yard track and make it an industry track, you really don't need to 'switch' there, it can be more industry oriented.

Dave H.

[NZRMac]

No need to be brutal, I really like it too!! Well done get started on the build and have fun with your son.

Ken.

[MisterBeasley]

Be careful with your reach distance to the back. Behind the "Beach" area looks like it's over 3 feet to the rear-most track, and that's a very long stretch. Typically, maximum reach should be 2 and a half feet, and even that is a stretch for some. You can get away with more reach if you layout is lower, but at typical layout heights, you shouldn't go much less than that.

Also, think about where you are going to put roads. They are an important scenic detail. You have lots of track, and probably not much room for streets, which you need to connect up your buildings. You don't want to end up with grade crossings at turnouts or on tight curves.

I really like the port idea. That has a lot of nice possibilities for both scenery and operations. I wish I had your kind of space.

[TBat55]

If it's in an attic consider what will happen if a new roof is pounded on or other construction needs. My yard will be hinged so I can flip it up to work on switch machines (or get it out of the way). Yards don't have as many structures & none will be glued down. Yard is the most cost and labor for me.
You might also want to paint the benchwork (or ta least prime the wood) to prevent excess expansion or warpage.

[Anonymous]

Mining town does not need double ending. You already have a wye to turn your engine and a passing siding on the bottom right to get to if needed.

Lose the left side of mining town's switches. I think you will have enough to worry about grade transitions without those left switches needing TLC. Grades and switches dont get along especially at the transitions in the tops or bottoms of grades.

Move the entire mining town halfway into the loop and further away from the small connection between your wye and rear track.

That area between the wye and mining town looks like a crunch of track fighting to get into the same area yuck.

Your port switcher is going to hate having to get into the left bottom corner then all the way back across the water to the lone industry on the river bank at the right bottom of port.

Why not simply connect the right hand industry to the port access track? and use the extra space in the middle for "Mo stuff"
Otherwise I think you have a decent plan. I like it.

[cheese3]

Nice plan. Looks like you and your son are going to have alot of fun with it.

[dtbowyer]

Thanks everyone for the great input!

Curves are a little tight. In terms of locos, since I am not a real particular person, I'll be running anything that catches my fancy! Generally, 4-6 axle diesels, and (hopefully) a 2-unit lash-up of something. I did attempt to use 22" sections as an easement when I went into 18" curves, so that will help.

I agree with single-ended sidings for the coal yard. It makes sense and saves some space.

I don't actually have room for the wye, but I really wanted one! Plus, I have a doodlebug that I see as a run from the city to the 2 upper towns, and I want to turn it "prototypically". (This is likely one of the few prototypical things that will happen!) Along those lines, yes there is a lot of track which will hamper some scenic opportunities. As I build, I may simplify some of the track to open it up. It just depends on what fits.

The port actually is 3 tracks. The upper-most track is really the main (yes, I know I put a bumper there, but when I can figure out something in RightTrack I tend to over do it). It is likely that will continue to 2 or 3 staging tracks off the layout when (if) I get that far.

The reach may be an issue. I started with a 24" width, and figured that I could get to the back of the 48" part. Now that I changed to 30" width, it may be more problematic. The good news is that, aside from a turnout, there isn't much back there. It didn't show up on the plan, but the yellow track on the upper loop will be in a tunnel, and there will be some form of viewblock (trees, building, etc.) separating the right-hand start of the loop from the coal yard. This will let me use the tunnel to hide a train that went towards one of two different off-site locations. (Right at the junction to head to say Cleveland, and left to head to Louisville.) Later, the "return" leg exits the tunnel and heads back downhill. I intend to cram a layover track in the tunnel, too. (Maybe!)

Attic ceiling (and walls) finished in a foam tile type covering (wonder if I can use some on the layout). The bad part is the ceiling is just over 6 feet, so I don't know how I'm going to light things, yet.

Whew! I'm ready to go sit on the beach with a coconut-like beverage (with an umbrella, of course) and let the road gang get to work. Oh wait, that's me, too!

Thanks again for the input. I'll get some pics when I get started on the track - after the benchwork. (After I figure out how to saw a straight line!)

David

[Anonymous]

Based on your last comments, I'd say you were well on your way to lots of fun. Have at it!!!!!!!!

[claycts]

Looks more builable than mine, go for it! I am doing a 100% redraw due to "BIG BUTT" problems!
Remember this is a HOBBY, have fun!!!

[SilverSpike]

The plan looks great!
And you put a lot of thought and planning went into it, give it a shot. The great thing about having a plan is that you can always make tweeks here and there, you have the plan in place and that is a great start!

Go for it!

Ryan

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dtbowyer
The port actually is 3 tracks. The upper-most track is really the main (yes, I know I put a bumper there, but when I can figure out something in RightTrack I tend to over do it). It is likely that will continue to 2 or 3 staging tracks off the layout when (if) I get that far.

Ah yes, you said that before somewhere, but I forgot. But then, If nothing else reverse the direction of the crossover so that the tail of the run around goes onto the main not on a spur.

[davekelly]

Looks like a good mix between running and switching. Should be fun!! Of course I'm sure that as you move along you'll see tweaks that can be made to make it more enjoyable. That, of course, is half the fun of this hobby!

[Train 284]

If you are running bifg engines (2-8-8-2's, etc.) The curves might be a bit tight but Other than that it looks great get started!

[dtbowyer]

Again, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their comments. You folks have been very helpful, and I should be able to incorporate most of these suggestions as I lay track. I'll eventually have pix posted, once I get started. That'll be the true test of the plan - will it actually work!

David

[Anonymous]

David,

I don't want to throw a huge wrench into your plans - but just want to throw this out there: the concept of the trains "entering and leaving the scene only once". I put this in quotes because I've read many of the more recent top-notch track planning guru's articles about this.

You could eliminate your tight curves this way - you'd end up with a lift-up or hinged section, and your trains could be run point to point, or when you just want to sit back and watch-em-run, you could let them run around the loop.

Just a concept that I find quite interesting. A good recent example of this is Pelle Soeborg's layout featured quite a bit in MR this year. It's an extremely fine looking layout, and the track plan is extremely simple. Extremely, yet so beautiful.

Also, (you asked for it man...) the plan looks pretty ambitious. You mentioned your modeling skills range from "beginner to not much better". I'm probably about the same. This is why I thought I'd call attention to the ambitious-ness of your layout.

In any case, congratulations on diving in. It looks like you'll be in for a fun ride!!!

(sorry this post sounds so negative... just pointing out a couple concepts before you dive in with big $$$$).

Looks like fun!!!

[jwar]

Just another thought as you have some great input allready. When you build your bench work keep every screw ( if your going to use drywaall type screws) to the front of the layout so that you can change any brace, support cross braces, legs or any wood structure from the front of the layout. I did not give any advice to your layout as I think everone changes things as they go along and looks good to me as is. Good Luck and when is the first spike (wood screw) going to be set. Go for it. John

[dtbowyer]

CARRfan,

I think you are certainly correct about the ambitious-ness! I had every intention of keeping it simple, but it was like a monster and kept growing on me! I will complete the lower portion first, with a temp connection from the staging tracks behind the yard back to the mainline, then add the port area. I may find that this satisfies me and may never complete the other half.

The loop under the mining town is completely hidden, and the loop around the mining town will be at least halfway hidden (although it doesn't show in the plan). The run to the mining town will be treated as point to point. The loop there will only be for holding trains that went somewhere else until they return. (Same with the lower loop.) (Well, my son will likely use the loops for continuous run, because that's what he likes most.) That does leave the tight curve behind the yard visible, but I am going to use the "city" to partially hide that, and try to work in a natural obstacle (like a river) to help justify it.

I thought about a connecting "bridge", but that seems harder to make work than the rest of it. Besides, at that point I'd convince myself to use the other 18 feet or so of the attic and make it a true around the walls, and I know that's too big!

Anyway, the thoughts are dead-on, and I'll re-visit the idea before I move much farther.

Jwar - I agree. I am planning to use frame construction with 1/4" plywood and 2" foam as the top, with 2x2 legs with t-bolts for leveling. I am building as 8' sections so that I can dismantle some day when I move. I already have 3 of those built, but I did them as 2' widths (worked well with a 4x8 sheet of plywood), but since changing the plan to 30" wide, I'm at a roadblock. I am condsidering using 1x6 boards with "L" brackets hanging on the side, but I'm not sure if that will work. I'll connect the tables with cairrage bolts, and only use one set of legs where they join.

Thanks for the input guys. I want to make sure it's right before I move too far forward!

David

[Anonymous]

You have had some excellent suggestions. Here is one more to contemplate. Hidden staging gives the feel of being connected to the outside world.
Heres an Idea that may or may not work for you.

[GLCapper]

Hi David
I was impressed with your plan. I have a similar shaped room (10 x 19) and have been wrestling with what to do with it - you have pretty much provided the answer. Is there any way that you can email me a better copy of your plan? I have had trouble downloading a clear copy. My email is [e-mail]. Yes, the au stands for Australia.

[joeh19012]

I really like your plan and envy you for your space and ambition! (How did you make THAT "real estate" deal?? [:D][;)])

It's an ambitious plan, but one that you can do in stages. My only recommendation is to consider the size of your "sections" carefully. You said that you are renting the house, implying that you could be moving some time in the near future. If you are going to preserve your efforts, you will have to build carefully to get down the attic steps, out the doors, etc.

I am facing a similar issue since I expect to be an "empty nester" in a few more years, and could be moving. Rather than start building my layout and have to tear it down or throw it away, I am attempting to build it in sections that fit through the doorways. Consider that you may not be able to tilt a built up section of 4' x 4' with scenery to carry it edge up. I am making my sections narrow enough to go up the basement steps upright.

Good luck to you. Maybe we'll see your railroad in MR someday!

[dtbowyer]

Well, at the very least, it looks like this plan has some legs!

Tile Guy - You're right, I think I need some more staging. There are 2 hidden tracks along the bottom, although they don't show up well. I need something at the "other end" as well, and I like putting it under the mine branch.

Graham - I can do you one better. I designed this with Atlas Right Track, and I will send you the layout file, as well as a better image file. You can get the Right Track software for free from Atlas at www.atlasrr.com. They just released version 7 last week, so if you have an older version, you might want to upgrade it.

Joe - I agree. I am building this as separate eight foot tables. (They started as 24" wide which worked well with the plywood sheets, but have grown to 30" wide!) I will bolt them together. The layout will be built without the separations, so I will have to do some cutting when I move it, but it should be easily repaired. The 4x4 blobs are going to be on 2x4 pieces inside a 4' square frame, so if I can't get it out, I can "surgically" separate them, too, if needed. I am fortunate in that the attic steps are a straight shot and enter the kitchen in line with the back door (with the head of the stairs about 4' to the left of the yard side of the layout), so I won't need to turn any corners!

When my wife and I separated, I looked at available housing with an eye towards a layout, and the attic here was one of the key components in the decision. (Not the only one, but in the top four or five!) Needless to say, without a "Board of Directors", the real estate deal for the layout was easy. And yes, I did briefly consider the living room and dining room for the layout, but opted for the attic as a more suitable idea, even without proper guidance!

David