Need a starting point

[Anonymous]

Wow! So many great ideas! I will have much to ponder. Thanks for spending so much time trying to help me. So Leighant saw trains switch in Chicago. I spent my younger years watching the Monon and IHB just on the other side of the state line.
I appreciate all of the help,
Ken

[leighant]

Here is an idea for a bit of big-time big-scene railroading in a limited space, 15 feet long but only 3 feet deep, EXCEPT for the areas marked in red where the layout sticks out a bit to allow an 18" minimum radius end curve. The green line near the bottom of the drawing is the 3 foot line.



Note: clicking on the track plan may make it display larger for clearer viewing.

Trains coming from staging, passing through the scene, and a switcher handling industry spurs are among the major features of the layout. But I also figured out a way to include passenger trains with full-length cars, even though you have only those sharp turnback curves at the ends.

Passenger trains do not run around the continuous loop but come from hidden staging and back into the station tracks. I thought about passenger trains just backing from a hidden space at the other end of the layout from the station-- I remember watching Amtrak trains in 1973 from the Roosevelt Roads viaduct in Chicago, backing in and out of Union Station from coach yards. In very limited length of layout (for passenger trains) not much action and not visible for very long.

Then I thought about a switchback move, where the passenger train would run out of hidden staging roughly parallel to and behind the station tracks onto a straight tail track that ran roughly in the middle of the opposite end turnback curve. I have ridden trains that backed through a wye into a station, made a back and forth move, changing directions. There is a prototype for that kind of entry to a passenger station, though this operation would not exactly duplicate it. One drawback would be that it would not seem to be really part of the overall railroad represented by the continuous loop. There ought to be some connection between the station and passenger tracks, and the continuous loop for the freight line.

Then it hit me. HERE IS THE TRICK. Full-length passenger cars cannot dependably or gracefully negotiate the 18" radius turnback curves at the end. But a passenger train is not made up entirely of full-length passenger cars. It might have medium-length locomotives like F-unit, passenger GEEP or BL-2 diesels, or in the early 20th century, short wheelbase steam like Atlantics (4-4-2). Then there might be express reefers and express boxcars on a passenger train, and there were 60' RPOs. The motive power and express boxcars and reefers on the head-end of the train CAN get around those 18 inch curves, especially at slow speed. The plan allows enough room for perhaps three full-length passenger cars to clear the passenger station throat without getting onto the sharp curve. One could operate two passenger trains from staging to the station, one with 2 or 3 express cars, 2 heavyweight coaches and a sleeper, and a streamline train with an RPO, 2 coaches and a sleeper. That ought to be a fairly respectable passenger presence on a layout restricted by 18" end curves!

An engine pocket is provided so the head-end power can move out of the way while a station switcher handles head-end cars, and possibly adds or removes a sleeper. There might be room to work in very minimal fuel, sand and water facilities suitable for one locomotive making a short layover.

The far end of a long spur behind the station tracks can be a place for the switcher to spot express and mail cars taken from the passenger trains. The front end of the spur could be used as a lead for switching the team track and warehouse spur on the left end of the layout.

At the back of the layout is a switchback to access the produce warehouse, which might be a destination for express reefers taken off the passenger trains.

A "setout track" off the passing siding is a place to trade cuts of cars. From time time, a transfer run could come from staging, as if it has come from a big freight yard on the other side of town. The transfer run might have cars from mainline freights that are to spotted somewhere in the downtown warehouse district by the downtown switcher. There might be freight reefer from mainline freight trains destined for the produce terminal. The transfer run would also pickup express reefers taken off passenger trains that are destined for somewhere across town, perhaps a wholesale grocery warehouse.

The freight line staging can hide 3 moderately long trains, perhaps two of three through freight trains and one a transfer run to and from the "crosstown" yard.

So the layout, despite its sharp end curves, can support:
-2 passenger trains with at least some full-length cars
-2 through freight trains with possible continuous unattended running of 1 train, OR a scheduled meet between trains going in opposite directions.
-1 transfer freight, picking up and setting out cuts of cars
-local freight industry switching
-passenger terminal switching

The appearance of much of the layout can resemble a portion of a huge club layout, big time railroading. Not much natural scenery but LOTS of urban scenery. Caveat-- the trick hiding of staging and crowding of features will mean very much scratchbuilding and or kit-modification of warehouses, retaining walls, street viaducts, etc. Hardly any of the right two-thirds of the layout can be built with standard structures built per instructions.
Hope this provides some ideas.

[m sharp]

I designed such a layout for myself, but with only about 18 inches in width. I believe you can still model class 1 railroads, though modeling an urban/industrial setting may be the way to go. You could have a small staging yard (5 tracks or so) behind a backdrop, which extends about 7 feet along the length of the layout, starting at one end. The trains would pull out of the staging yard, entering the visible layout from beneath an overpass (which hides the opening through the backdrop). The train would move several feet, then into a yard a the other end of the layout. Here the engines would uncouple, go to a servicing area, and a switcher would begin classifying cars for "outbound" trains.
About a third of the layout would contain the yard and engine facilities. The other end of the layout (about seven or eight feet in length) in front of the hidden staging yard could contain heavy industry. That would be a source of a lot of switching and carloads/empties. Later, your engine set would couple onto an "outbound" train and procede back into the staging yard. . I think you could run 12-car trains with this setup. I hope I have given you some help

[RMax1]

Try this site.
http://www.thortrains.net/

RMax1

[leighant]

Your request has given me some ideas about big-time big-city railroading in limited space. Got me all excited with the challenge. Will take some time to draw a plan. Can the germ of the idea be made to work? Maybe back in a day or two...

[leighant]

Here is what I would probably do in your space (speaking in generalities, not trying to model a specific scene.) Describing it in words....

I would have a continuous loop which could be used for "running", with turnback curves at each end. Your width of just as little over 3 feet as possible dictates a single track mainline for the continuous loop.

Much or most of the "back" part of the continuous loop would serve as hidden layover staging. Ought to have AT LEAST two tracks (a hidden passing siding so to speak.) Even better to have 3 staging tracks. Hide them in a tunnel, cut, behind buildings, or behind a background, depending on your preference of scene being depicted. One inexpensive way to monitor hidden staging is have track behind some viewblock that does not hide them from above, and use a mirror on the ceiling to check the hidden staging.

The conspicuously visible front half of the continuous loop should have at least one passing siding where several kinds of operation can take place... Trains can of course just run through, come from staging, run through scene and disappear. More interestingly, mainline trains running in opposite directions can make meets, one train pulling into the siding to allow superior other train to go by. This can be highly co-ordinated by timetable, or looser by sequence. But it gives you something interesting the trains can do. The same passing siding can also be used as a runaround track for local industry switching. Further, with most industry spurs located off the passing siding, a local could switch those spurs at the same time through trains go by on the mainline.
Some modelers want to have as many passing siding points as possible for "variety" in where trains can meet. I would favor one train-length passing siding and perhaps one additional two-or-three car-length runaround tracks to having 2 passing sidings that are too close together to seem like different "places" or "towns" on a railroad. Just my druthers.

What can we run so far, considering a 3-track staging yard, 18" end curves and one passing siding in front. The 18" end curves limit the size of equipment. Switchers should run well, GEEP road switchers and F-3, F-7, F-9 diesels in the transition era, 2-6-2 amd 4-6-0 steamers, 40-foot freight cars. But NOT Big Boys, articulateds, probably not E-unit diesels or 6-wheel truck SDs. NOT 80-foot Trailer-train TOFCs, not full-length passenger cars.
But with the length of individual pieces of equipment, it should still be possible to run a train with 2 or 3 unit diesel power and 10 to 15 cars. Even two such trains running in opposite directions if you devote most of the front of the loop to passing siding. Add a local train doing switching, and this is starting to look like a small vignette scene of a big railroad.

Want to run full-length passenger service? Your end curves will limit the length of cars ON THE CONTINUOUS LOOP, but there are other places they might run. You might use RDC or push-pull commuter cars, a 2 or 3 car train running on a back-and-forth line, hidden at one end, perhaps under the end curve, and visible at the station end. That station might be a connection with the continuous loop route. Just remember that your "additional" line for passenger/ long cars cannot be OUTSIDE the end curve, either in front or back or it, without making the layout stick out more at that point. But that line can be inside the turnback curve or over or under it.

I have seen passenger stations where there is a long backing in or backing out movement. You might model a short segment of a line like that as a "switching only" or back and forth. Beginning models often refer to their continuous loop as the mainline but in this case, what is actually the short stub-end track might represent a small part of the prototype mainline, while the continuous loop is the local belt switching and transfer line.

Another consideration-- it may not be absolutely necessary to model a YARD as part of your railroad. A yard can often become a place where trains are just stored. A real "working" yard takes lots of space and for it to work accurately, needs a lot of staging to represent the traffic coming to and from the yard. If trains come from "somewhere else" (staging) and pass through your scene as if it is a switching area along the line, or a point where a short branch connects, you can realistically model the operation of everything that happens there, even on your limited size layout.

I hope you can picture some of the things you might do. I have run for several years an N scale 3' x 7' layout with no yard as such, just the scene where trains pass through a town. (You would not be able to fit in a branch line OUTSIDE the end curve as I did for a logging line.)

I had slightly different space considerations, similar depth-- which shouldn't be bad in N scale, wanted to keep short enough to make moveable as all one piece. Had to move layout 4 times over the years. Not easy but doable. My end curves are too sharp and I have operating problems. Make sure your end curves are smooth and not kinked.

How did that old song go?
"If you want to to be happy for the rest of your life,
Never make a sharply curved woman your wife..."

No that's not it, I must have accidently changed something. But you get the idea.

[SpaceMouse]

Just because scenery is your main focus doesn't mean you should discount operations. You can still workout a theme and purpose for your railroad to keep the running interesting after the year or so it will take to build a good looking layout. Check out Iain Rice's books on layouts for small spaces from Model Railroader.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I sure will be able to add the extra space needed for the turn around! I plan on being very detail oriented from the beginning. In my opinion, running the trains is the benefit of building a layout, and not vise versa. The aspect I enjoy the most is the scenery, which is time consuming to say the least. If I just wanted to run trains, i would get a sheet of plywood and nail down some tracks. This hobby has many facets and I want to enjoy each phase as much as I can.
Good advice and encouragement are always welcome. This forum may be my main support to get over the tough spots.
Thanks to all of you for your generous help and patience.

Ken

[leighant]

Can you consider making your layout more than 3 feet wide JUST on the end lobes so you can make a turnback curve? Maybe 3.5 feet.
In other words, don't get stuck on the idea of the thing being rectangular and all having same width. (Of course if you are building in a 3 feet wide hall, that's all you have, period.)

[zigg72md]

Here is a nice web site for track plans.

http://www.thortrains.net/

[selector]

You'll probably end up with 'something' to run trains, but if this is a first kick at it, and you'd like to give your time in the hobby some 'legs', do, for sure, allow yourself to change your mind about every single detail in the planning, from outright room available to shape to track-plan to setting. It is the only sure way to come away from the first experience with any real learning, confidence, and satisfaction. You'll get over the compromises you face, but you'll never get over the rushed, half-baked decisions you make when you are turning the throttle two months after you get it running.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the help! Yes I realize that I am limited to a switching layout, which is fine with me! I have all of my HO stuff and really like the gauge. To start over in N would be pretty costly, although it is a logical alternative. I probably could build a really nice switching layout (maybe urban railroad in a downtown district, or several small business in an industrial setting) i will look at the leads you have given me and see where I end up. No track has been laid, so I am still open to options. I can and probably will change my mind many times before I have a plan. But then, research is part of the fun too.
Ken

[cheese3]

would you consider N scale? That space would fit a great N scale empire! You could have the loop and plenty of switching.

[ereimer]

lots of ideas here , almost all of them taking less space than you have . you might consider combining 2 plans , or expanding one that seems interesting

http://carendt.com/

or here ...
http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/small-layouts.html

[dehusman]

First off, with 3x15 in HO, unless you are doing trolley, you will pretty much be confined to switching layouts. That is layouts where you switch cars and don't run trains in a loop. The reason I say that is that your layout area is very narrow.

My suggestion would be to search for "switching layout" or go to Yahoo and search the "Groups" section for groups dealing with railroads or model railroads. There are several groups devoted to layout design, construction, switching layouts, small layouts, etc.

Also don't dismiss large layouts either. You can take one large town or station from a large layout and use that as a basis for making your layout. Kalmbach has several books that are collections of layout plans. Buy one or two of those. Ian Rice also has authored several books on smaller railroads. If there is one for a small room, don't be afraid to "unroll" it out straight to fit your area.

Dave H.

[roadrat]

Try downloading Atlas's RTS software it's free and not very hard to learn,(save often program tends to lock up)
once you've got it start laying track out for your layout size, add spurs and sidings
making your track plan is half the fun of this hobby.


bill

[Anonymous]

[?]Ok, i have a limited space for my HO layout...3'x15'. I need a starting point. I figured I would lok online for some track plans fitting these dimensions. I did Google searches until my eyes watered and did not find much.
Could someone point me in the right direction? I just need a little inspiration to get me started.. I am not good at sitting down with pencil and paper and drawing a layout from scratch.
Are there any good sites online where I could look at a few track plans to get the creative juices flowing?
Thanks in advance for any guidance or suggestions,
Ken