Please critique my layout plan

[DigitalGriffin]

This is my 5th redesign, but I think this is going to be my final tack plan, but I could use some feedback from some of you before I set it in stone. (Either good or bad...I won't be offended....especially if it saves me headaches.) Is it too much? Is it not enough?

I could also use some ideas for that big grey empty area on the upper left. What should I fill it with?

The track is here:
http://home.comcast.net/~xnettrain/Layout.htm

~Thanks Guys,
~D

[tstage]

Don,

Hey, it's looking good. Will the station be going into that open space to the lower right of the track? Don, if you can, I think it would look and run better if you could increase the radius of the curve at that spot. There may be good reasons why you have it that way. It seems a bit on the tight side.

Keep up the good work.

Tom

[DigitalGriffin]

Tom,

I'm going to kitba***he station you see here:
http://www.cmrtrain.com/station.html

It will sit on the elevated city level. The concoarse will overhand the 4 tracks that run parallel top center.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that open space on the lower right of the track. I thought about increasing the radius, but it's difficult to do with so many turnouts there on the upper left of the layout. Maybe Shinora/Walthers curved turnouts?

I'm going to tighten up the spacing of the track on the right side of the layout. It's kind of difficult to get close laying track with the atlas track software

I was reading John Armstrongs book when I saw the reverse loop into the yard, then I remembered your plan of putting the turntable inside the loop. That was the last piece in the puzzle I think.

[tstage]

Don,

A curved turnout for the "inside" turnout might be a good way to accompli***hat. The curves on the rest of the layout appear to be nice and gradual.

Tom

[MisterBeasley]

I'd worry about that corner in the upper left, beyond the "great gray void." Are you sure that's only a 30-inch reach? If there are no walls on the left or top, of course, then it's no problem.

[tstage]

MB,

That's the area that I'm talking about. I'd like to see the curve radii increase in there. That would bring part of the track down somewhat.

Tom

[selector]

I really hesitate to jump in here because I have so little experience. However, I have a short rail leading to a turntable and a roundhouse. I, too, was absolute about it being included in my 8 X 11 layout. Looking at mine, and looking at your diagram, someone else is right when they said that they are space hogs. Yours will be a 130' table? Whew! Mine is a 90-footer and has used up a lot of room, also in a 'corner' of the layout as you have done.

Not sure what the answer is...maybe there is none if it WILL be included. Not even sure what I would place in that square if I agreed that the turntable should go.

[chicirjs]

Don,

That is a great start! It looks like it will be a lot of fun.

If there is room, you might be able to add a passing track or two in the navy blue section, Main Line (Hidden -1 Level), for staging/storage purposes. Starting in the strait section in the top right just after the track goes from medium blue for visible main line to the navy blue for hidden main line you could add a small yard ladder and have the other ladder underneath the red industrial section. Rough eyeball measurements look like that will give you sidings that are about 12-15 feet, which would be a good sized train on a layout that size.

Another idea is to extend the orange yard tracks as far as you can under the city scene. You may only be able to extend two of them to just beyond view and two of them as far as you can. This will increase the yard capacity by a car or two per track. I know that isn't a lot, but it might come in handy when you are trying to break down a train.

My only concern is the "S" curve at the bottom, middle of the mailine, just to the right of the roundhouse. I notice that you have a small strait section, but a car 50' or longer or a 6 axle diesel or a longer steam engine might have some trouble there. There is room to extend the strait section a little bit if the lead to the red industrial section is moved a little bit or if it comes off of the purple track from above the turntable coming from the other direction.

I hope this helps.

Jason

[Anonymous]

Don,

I am always reluctant to make comments on track plans because I don't want to seem negative. My initial impression looking at the plan is that you are trying to cram too much in a small space. I would have to ask what type of layout are you going for in terms of scenery??? Right now looking at your track plan, I am having a hard time imagining space for much scenery. It seems that the plan is skewed towards track and operation. An example of what I am talking about is the left upper side of the layout where you have the yard and a bunch of tracks all right next to each other. I think you will have a hard time making this look good....

Back to givens and druthers.. Your requirements are asking quite a bit of a layout. By making the passenger station a priority and by having a big turntable, you are taking away the possibilities for much of a run. Passenger trains of any size require large layouts to look good and to fit in terms of size. Most scale out to a least 8' if you are looking at mainline service. They will dominate a small layout.

If nothing else I would try to get the switches off of the duck under and I would pull tracks away from the walls a little to give room for a convincing backdrop.

I would go back to your requirements and pick one or two items and not all of them.......

[SpaceMouse]

I wan't going to comment, but when Trainnut stepped forward...

When I lloked at you layou, the first thing that popped into my head was, "Where is he going to put the buildings."

[DigitalGriffin]

Points all well taken.

MisterBeasley, Tom,

I have reduced that great grey void in the upper left. That should solve the reach problem. I thought about potentially using it as another section of elevated city with a bridge across to it. But I wasn't sure.

Jason,

Passing/Storage tracks on a lower level. Now that's a good idea. I'm working on cleaning up that curve.by the roundhouse.

Trainnut, Chip,

Don't hold back. Let me know how you really feel. *joking*
I thought the 19.5 sq. ft (12 sq ft. for city 6.5 for industry on the south side) would be enough for city scenary. I could extend the elevated level on the right side another 5x1'.

Around the "up against the wall areas" on the left side I thought about adding a small fence with bushes. Then putting a back drop behind that. I'll see what I can do to pull that left side away some more. Maybe some flats behind that fence.

There's nothing I can do about the scenary around the southside of the roundhouse except fences, bushes, and a backdrop. It will contain all the standard facilities for steam and additional tracks around the table however.

I tried running a longer three track yard parallel to the passenger tracks. Unforunately there just isn't room with those #5, #6 turnouts. Those things are the real space hogs.

[SpaceMouse]

DG,

I've been thinking about your layout and I've been wondering about what you plan to do while you are running trains. On my 4.5 x 8 layout, I have 3 loops, a small "yard" and spurs for Diagon Alley, Hogwarts, and a fueling/service area. Both of my kids got tired of running circles very quickly even though there are hills and tunnels and switches to be thrown. Once they got the hang of switches, they are looking for new things.

I created a series of switching puzzles, but with the limited layout, these went by quickly.

At our club we have a loop. Granted the loop takes 20 minutes to circumnavigate, but 3 times around and my daughter was bored.

So my question to you is: Besides going around in your multiple circles--many of which are virtually duplicates of each other, what are you going to do? Your yard has a capacity of about 8 cars and your industry 4. That leaves very little variation in what you can do, and most of your switching work will be samo-samo.

You have the space to do a lot more than you are. Obviously, you have an active imagination, imagine what it will be like running trains on your layout two years after it is built. How are you going to keep your own interest?

If you find another person to run trains with you, will it keep his interest?

You are going to put a lot of work and money into this.

[hoscalelarry]

I also was thinking about buildings or something to break up the track and get the 'city look'. Maybe the elevated city will break it up enough. Have fun with it -- Larry

[Anonymous]

looks good!

[CNJ831]

My impression is about the same as Trainnut's - rather too much track and not enough room for supporting "scenery" (industries and reasons for the RR to be there in the first place). The design harkens back to layouts of the 50's and 60's when layouts were all about track and little consideration was given to scenery.

Also be advised that unless your "city" is simply a single row essentially of flats and/or shallow relief industrial structures, it won't work very well. A depth of just 12" is too shallow, even totally without any trackage, to create a believable dense urban scene. It is very difficult to model a major downtown urban scene (where you're likely to find a station as large as you plan) without a minimum of three layers of structures, at least the first of which needs to be almost of full dimension (not shallow relief). I'm currently work on a simlar scene and at a depth of 30" it is still difficult to get a feeling of reality and not one of just a bunch of crammed-in structures.

CNJ831

[DigitalGriffin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

My impression is about the same as Trainnut's - rather too much track and not enough room for supporting "scenery" (industries and reasons for the RR to be there in the first place).

A depth of just 12" is too shallow, even totally without any trackage, to create a believable dense urban scene. It is very difficult to model a major downtown urban scene (where you're likely to find a station as large as you plan) without a minimum of three layers of structures

Did you check out this book?

http://store.yahoo.net/kalmbachcatalog/12204.html

It has some good example of 12" deep layered structures that look great.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DigitalGriffin

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

My impression is about the same as Trainnut's - rather too much track and not enough room for supporting "scenery" (industries and reasons for the RR to be there in the first place).

A depth of just 12" is too shallow, even totally without any trackage, to create a believable dense urban scene. It is very difficult to model a major downtown urban scene (where you're likely to find a station as large as you plan) without a minimum of three layers of structures

Did you check out this book?

http://store.yahoo.net/kalmbachcatalog/12204.html

It has some good example of 12" deep layered structures that look great.

Yes, DG, I've had a copy of this book since it came out. What you have to appreciate is that what things look like in carefully staged photographs and how the same scene appears in reality, when you are actually there and see it for yourself, are two very different things. Low angle, tight shots, of the the type we typically see in MR, RMC, etc., never convey what a layout/scene looks like in person and you can get away with a great deal through the camera's eye. This is why you see so few overall layout shots in the magazines...a lot of scenery that photographs well from close-up looks pretty hokey if viewed in person. So take it from someone who is actually working on a dense urban scene in HO scale currently that 12" simply isn't going to cut it. [sigh]

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

I like it. When you get started are you planning on using sectional track? If you go with flex, you may find more room by tweaking your curves. Using easements will help operations as well as looks. Also, have you considered building some of your to's yourself to fit the space? This can free up a lot of space and still meet your requirements. Nothing says you can't change things to better suit you. ITs your railroad. Some people have said you will get bored with it. Hey, I'm constantly making changes on my layout which is almost ten years old and operated at least once a week.

[turbine682]

Hi DigitalGriffin,

I've looked at your plan briefly and read the comments.

It's alway easier to edit someone else's work (and I'm just as guilty). I'm sure if I posted my WIP plan others could point out both pros and cons.

Looks like you're heavy into passenger. Good start, but I would tend to agree with too much track.

The only comment that I have is that I don't see any run around tracks for switchers (same as mine) or long switching leads ( I do have) Both yard work and industry may require switchers to pull cars into the reverse loop. Any train running on the station track is brought to a halt until the switchers are out of the way.

Also, you may want to use compass points as a reference to aid in planning train operations, i.e., what directions are train 1 and train # b heading. As best as I can determine, EAST --> points to the right and
<-- WEST points to the left. Helps with planning movements.

Most important point: It's YOUR Railroad.

HTH,

--Ed