Keep DC or Switch to DCC?

[Anonymous]

My current layout is a 4x12 table and I am currently using DC to power it. I am moving and will have a room somewhere around 15x15 so I till put an "Around the room" type layout in it. I was wondering if it was worth the money to put in a DCC system in my new layout. I dont have too many trains I would need decoders in but its just a new and strange thing I am apprehensive to learn and setup the system. I have a 1 throttle DC unit and a 2 throttle DC unit. So would it be worth while to switch? If so what systems would you reccomend. In expandability, simplicity, and function.

[selector]

No one has answered you yet? Gosh, and I am not a very knowledgeable respondant.

Well, for what it is worth, here goes: Just as you (hopefully) did with computers, ya just gotta dive in....period. DCC is the newish wave for MR, and the market forces have led the manufacturers into it in a big way. So, my advice is to jump in at a natural point in your evolution (like, now!!!), sweat and learn, and then smile ruefully to yourself over the new guys when they ask the same question in the months ahead.

Have I done it? Yes, and no. I bought an EZ Command, but it would not programme (sorry, Canadian spelling habits) my BLI Hudson. I am awaiting a Digitrax Empire Builder that, I hope, will work. So, yes I dove in, but I hit a submerged rock. Grrrrr!

[simon1966]

I went from DC to DCC about a year ago. I have lots to learn, but you can quickly get some basics down and have fun with DCC. I would never go back. My layout is far more enjoyable now.

[howmus]

I recently got the Super Empire Builder from Digitrax. I am currently switching over an old existing layout to run the DCC. So far all I can say is: AWESOME! There is a definite learning curve involved, but basic operation is as simple as following the quite clear instructions that come with the system. It is simply much easier to wire than DC, easier to operate, and a lot more fun to run trains with. Your move would be the ideal time to convert. One thing to remember is that older locos can be difficult to convert to DCC so I would also start with a couple of DCC ready locos that you can install a decoder in without difficulty and then graduate to converting your older models.

Have Fun!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Metallicarocks28

..... I have a 1 throttle DC unit and a 2 throttle DC unit. So would it be worth while to switch? If so what systems would you reccomend. In expandability, simplicity, and function.

That's the 64 million dollar question most often asked in this forum. Is it worth while? Definitely! Appearently you're already using three cabs, so DCC would make running trains easier by not having to figure out which track to power.
I recommend taking your time and do as much research as you can before deciding which system is right for you. There is a ton of information on DCC.
Some factors to consider. Number one would be how much do you have budgeted? That will determine which DCC systems to look at. Then look into how user friendly the system is. Is it too complicated for you or your visitors? What type of throttle control appeals to you, rotating knob or bush button? Since you model empire will be 15 x 15, you'll be happy with a walk around. Plug in type, inferred and radio throttles and their pro's and cons are something to consider. Do you belong to a model railroad club or have friends with a DCC system? If so, you may want to consider a throttle that is compatable with your friends or the clubs system. Especially if it's a modular club, your module wiring will have to be compatable.

My personal choice was the Lenz Set 90 starter set with a rotating throttle.

[Anonymous]

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I found the technical revolution in MR April issue (pg. 9) facinating, so I decided to try it.

But first some background: I do some residential security as well as audio/video so I use a lot of magnets on windows and doors and so on. Some of these are extremely strong for their size so I thought I could mount the magnets under my layout (open frame/girder construction). That was easy,

Only then before the next stage, that of lining the basement ceiling with metal strips for the magnets to attach to, I found one of my cats hanging by the little metal tag in her collar, stuck to one of the 1/2 inch diameter magnets. That's when the clawing and scratching began (at least on me instead of the railroad this time).

Unfortunately I learned from a structural engineer that I would have to reframe the floor joists to support the weight of the steel straps and that these would also need to be grounded properly. Unfortunately to reframe meant raising the entire L-shape home up off the foundation to increase from 2x10 to 2x12 framing lumber, add a steel girder across the center of the floor/ceiling (now needing a crane to lift the several tons of steel girder), only to find out that the "pads" supporting the lolly colums are not big enough to support the new ceiling and beam.

So after cutting up the concrete floor, pouring new pads, getting the crane and rigging crew back with the beam, lowering the house back down, repairing the drive later this spring due to the damage from the crane and flat bed trucks, replacing several trees, septic tank cover and septic drains. Well ... the house was now ready for the railroad. Only the railroad was not ready to be inverted yet.

Now comes the Caterpillar generator for constant electrical charging of the E-field. Again I contacted an electrical engineer (at $200 per hour) to determine what would be the proper gauge wire to use.... 8/3 with the 20KVA generator and E-Field for a ceiling area of 564 square feet. Just enough to cover the footprint of the inverted layout. So far I figured I was into this space saving project for just under $76,000. The generator of course was a bit pricy, but in New England, I could always use it when the lights go out in winter.

Well now the real problems began. The Royal Morovian Railway has about 1/2 mile of wire and is 34 feet long by 18 wide. The decision was made to cut the three main "tables" apart , invert them, and reassemble once mounted on the ceiling. That would not have been too bad, but I had overlooked the inverted floor plan now overlapping my basement stairs. Another bit of carpentry, replacing the damaged New Zealand wool carpet in my home theater (at $90 per yard), remodeling the kitchen to accomodate the moved stairwell behind it, and so on.

The walls behind the RMR had been muraled by a young artist when I began the layout in 1996, with Mt. Eiger in one corner, and the looming Swiss Alps following along the 34' long wall. Of course being inverted, the walls would have to be repainted, with the mural upside down. Tack on another $7,000 since he is not in college and trying to earn his way through school anymore.

Finally complete, concrete floor painted a pale sky blue and the ceiling around the layout now grassed and scenicked with roads, cows, etc., I was able to compile my total expenses, now including fees for the divorce attorney, town zoning board bribes (use of an unrestricted E-field generator), EPA fees for use of a diesel engine in a forrested area, legal fees for the suits brought by my neighbors... well the list goes on.

My one or two remaining friends (those who have not tried to have me committed) think the whole thing is pretty cool.

The cat even stays out of the train room now.

Many Thanks for reading,
Bob Fallier
Royal Morovian Railway
Pics of the original RMR at http://Morovianrail.com

[Anonymous]

An alternative to Both DCC and DC.

I have a large N-scale layout, The Royal Morovian Railway (Morovianrail.com) with many vintage and of course very small engines. DC became impractical as the RMR grew to 33'x18' with mountains blocking my view in almost every direction. DCC, though interesting, seemed very expensive and intrusive to my engines, and frankly I was just not willing to pay an expert to convet 30-40 engines on a growing roster. Besides, with most N scale steam locomotives, there is just no room for a decoder.

From it's inception in 1996 until just two years ago it had been controlled by 5 independent controllers, (MRC, Troller from the 80's, hand helds, etc.) but it was terribly difficult to maintain control of more than one or two trains at a time. My block sections were very long, as much at 40 feet in a couple of cases. Not fun.

Then in October MRR 2002 ran a review of the Roadmaster DBC (Digital Block control) from Signal Research. It is a great alternative to DCC. No engine modifications at all. Standard DC wiring, but NO block switches any where on the layout, No Running around, no need for multiple controllers.

The Roadmaster consists of a Master Control Panel with a 2 line digital display, several easy to use buttons, and then a Block Control board for each 8 blocks. The board connects 8 DC outputs to your track, each board having it's own 3 amp dedicated power supply. Total capacity 256 blocks, 99 trains. It has optional three color signal output, east and west for each block (1 signal driver t board for each block control board, nd the signal driver board also includes block occupancy output for LEDS on your main switch panel(s) ).

Everything can be operated from a single location!!! They are working on a hand held, too.

Like DCC, there is a learning curve, and in my case, nearly half a mile of rewiring was required. But it has all been worth it in the long run.

Here's a link to their website http://signalresearch.com

The Royal Morovian is still a work in progress after nearly 9 years, but at least now it is fully operational (well still work to be done on the old Arnold-Rapido track sections that I installed in '96-'97). The RMR is of Swiss/German prototype, circa 1930-1960. It is built in three main sections, ladder frame work, hard-shell on some, but the best part of the scenery is the styrofoam mountains, but that is for another time. Most of the trackwork is Peco fine scale, code 55 rail, Peco switch motors that take a beating now and then.

Vollmer and Viessmann Catenary is in the planning stages, though it will not be "operational" . Some signals are still Arnold bulb type, driven by aux turnout contacts, but all new signals will be Viessmann LED type snd driven directly by the Roadmaster with prototypical aspect changes. Some semaphores will still need to be turnout controlled or controlled by micro reed switches between the rails.
I've tried several IR type sensors, but found that every time I change the light levels in the room, the sensitivity changes, even under a mock snow shed. Micro Reeds are dependable (I use them all the time in residential security installations).

The Viessmann semaphores have a very nice "slow motion" activation of the flags.

Thanks for reading, hope this give you an alternative to the DC - DCC dilema.

Bob Fallier,
New Hampshire

[simon1966]

Hi Bob,

What a great website you have. I would really love to see some more pictures. I am leaving next week for a trip that will take in a TGV ride thru France and then a few days winding our way from Lyon to Zurich. I have friends in Luzern and agree with your web site that the transportation museum in well worth a visit. Although it looks as if your home railroad puts the museum layout to shame!! Anyway, thanks for sharing.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone else tried the Signal Research DBC system?

I realize that DCC has some tremendous advantages, and I was very excited about it when it first hit the market, but price per engine for decoder and install, plus electronics was prohibitive at the time.

Now with some N-guage available, I would consider it, but I would still have to run DC for the majority of my steam.

bob

[Bikerdad]

Switch. Go with a Digitrax Zephyr OR Chief, Lenz 90 or 100, or the NCE. The Digitrax and Lenz have the most expandability.

Selector, the problem with programming the BLI is due to the BLI, not the DCC system. The BLI needs a very high (relatively speaking) power level to program, more than most systems put out for programming. There are "programming boosters" available, head over to Tony's Train Exchange for details.

[Anonymous]

hey Selector I have been looking at he Digitrax Super Empire Builder and like it the most out of ones I have been looking at. I was wondering does it have the ability to set a certain Loco at a speed and then do other things with other locos while the 1st one is still moving? Does it remember speed settings?

Also I was looking at the Starter Set Comparison and under Programmer for the Zepher and Super Chief it says "Separate Output Read Write" but for the SEB it says "Broadcast Write Only" what does this mean?

If anyone else could also answer these questions that would be awsome.

[selector]

Metallicarocks28, I can't answer your questions, regrettably, because I have yet to learn how the Digitrax works. I can only tell you that anything has to be better than my experience with the EZ Command ( I don't mean to offend anyone who is very happily using one. I know that BLI doesn't adhere to all NMRA standards, and there-in lies the problem, Bikerdad. Bottom line is the EZ Command won't do it for me, and I ain't giving up on my best loco).

I believe, to get back to 'rock's questions, that most DCC controllers will monitor several locos electronically, whether or not the human is dialled-in to that loco's address at that very moment. So, yes, if you leave that addresss and go to another loco to modify its behaviour, the system will keep the other loco doing what you left it doing..if you see what I mean.

As to your other questions........(sorry, waaay out of my league just yet)[D)]

[Adelie]

All I can add is that I started building a 40 x 14 n-scale railroad. I built the entire lower (staging) level and got it running in DC (although wired with DCC in mind). I then hooked up a Digitrax Super Empire Builder and installed a couple of decoders. Amazingly, it worked exactly like it was supposed to. Even more amazingly, I then installed a block detection device (Digitrax BDL168) and it worked like it was supposed to. I'm not used to things working like they are supposed to.

One disclaimer. I am a systems engineer, although not by education. I do have an understanding of how the thing "thinks" which did help.

I am eventually going to have 4 boosters wired up. Overall, I am very impressed with what I have seen with DCC and Digitrax. I'm sure Lenz and NCE users have equally good experiences.

One warning....keep your track clean!

[Anonymous]

I recently purchased an MRC Prodigy Advance DCC system. After comparing the pros and cons of switching to DCC, I decided that the pros outweighed the cons in my evaluation. Since I recently became interested in operating sound equipped locomotives, this was a simple decision. I can run as many trains as either the layout or I can handle with this system. I believe that most DCC systems will allow you to be operating one locomotive while others are running at constant speed. With two or more throttles, you could operate two or more simultaneously. I think the switch to DCC is well worth the expense and trouble in most cases, if you are planning to have more than one train operating simulaneously. If you are planning to run only one train at any given time, then DCC is probably not really worthwhile for you. Check out the "DCC for beginners" pamphlet that is available on the Tony's Trains website. This should answer your immediate short term DCC questions and should help you make up your mind about going to DCC.

[BRVRR]

Metallicarocks28,
Now is the time! I switched the BRVRR to DCC more than 2-years ago and never looked back. I have a Digitrax Zephyr with two MRC power packs attached to the 'jump ports.' This arrangement gives you three independent throttles. A few months ago I added a Digitrax DT400 throttle so I now have five throttles. Overkill for my 4x10 layout. For pictures, go to my web site, pu***he layout button and scroll to the bottom of the page. Link is in my signature.

QUOTE: Also I was looking at the Starter Set Comparison and under Programmer for the Zepher and Super Chief it says "Separate Output Read Write" but for the SEB it says "Broadcast Write Only" what does this mean?

The Zephyr and Super Chief systems have outputs to a separate 'programming track' for most programming needs, they have CV read back and they can program on the main line in 'OPS' Mode. I believe the Super Empire Builder can only program on the main. To confirm that, check the manuals.

Go here http://digitrax.com for them.

I do advise that you 'dive in', but with this proviso: Look at all of the systems that are out there. Each one has something to offer. Use the comparison charts at Tony's Train Exchange or Loy's Toys as a starting point. Check with you LHS. Many of them are starting to stock DCC equipment. If you have a club in your area, contact them and see what they use. Most are willing to help.
If possible, go to a couple of train shows. The vendors will usually allow you to try the systems they have on display.
When building a new layout, the wiring for DCC is much simpler than DC. It can save you a ton of time. DCC is not as complicated as it sounds. Most starter sets can be installed on an existing layout in minutes. You can be running ONE DC loco in 5-minutes! I was.
Installing decoders is no mystery either. Basic soldering tools and skills are all that are needed. With some of the newer locos, 'drop-in decoders' are available.
Whatever you choose for a system, I wish you luck!
DCC makes model railroading more fun.

[Anonymous]

I am building a new layout that is 9' x 13' . I did not have but one engine to convert to DCC, so future engines can be purchased "DCC ready". I have found that simple decoders are costing me 22.00 to 25.00 and I have been able to install them myself. I bought the MRC Prodigy Advance and am using the NCE decoders. These decoders are simple decoders and will run basic engines. I would also suggest visiting the Tony's Trains site and even talking with Tony or Ken there. I think you will be happy that you went to DCC, especially if you do not have a lot of engines to convert.

[tstage]

Metallica,

Make the switch to DCC. You won't regret it. You'll enjoy actually running your trains, rather than running your layout.

Tom

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Metallicarocks28

hey Selector I have been looking at he Digitrax Super Empire Builder and like it the most out of ones I have been looking at. I was wondering does it have the ability to set a certain Loco at a speed and then do other things with other locos while the 1st one is still moving? Does it remember speed settings?

Also I was looking at the Starter Set Comparison and under Programmer for the Zepher and Super Chief it says "Separate Output Read Write" but for the SEB it says "Broadcast Write Only" what does this mean?

If anyone else could also answer these questions that would be awsome.

Avoid the Super Empire Builder. The only purpose that outdated set serves int e lineup these days is a cheap way of expanding a system - the costof the SEB set is less than the indivudual costs of the DT400 and DB150, plus you get a UP5 panel.
The difference is this. For the Zephyr and Super CHief, there are two sets of track connections. One goes to the actual running track to control your trains. The other goes to an isolated section or track (for now I have a pair of 9" Atlas Code 100 pieces connected with terminal joiners) for programming. With both systems you program locos ont he programmign track. With Digitrax, you can continue to run trains while someone uses the program track. Witht he Zephyr and Super CHief, you can also read the current settings of the configuration variables (CV's), as well as write new values.
The SEB does not have a program track output. All programming is done ont he main. To avoid programming ALL your locos at the same time, you have to eaither remove all other locos, or create an isolated section with a toggle switch such that when flipped one way, ONLY the 'programming' section gets power, adn the other way, the entire layout gets power. They show how to do this in the manual. The SEB can only write values to the CV's, there is no way to determine what the existing settings might be.
Now here's where it gets a bit more complicated. The Zephyr and Super Chief also offer "Ops Mode" programming on the main. This is NOT the same programming method that the SEB uses. Ops Mode programming only programs the loco that is currently selected. Say you have locos 10, 51, 657, and 1042 on the track. If you use Ops Mode to program 657 on the main, ONLY 657 will have its CV's changed.
Bottom line: If you won;t be runnign more than 10 locos at a time, get the Zephyr. If you need more amps, add a SEB set, this gains you the extra 5 amps from the DB150 and the DT400 throttle, but the Zephyr remains as the command station, so you get the seperate program track and so forth. If you are SURE you need to run more than 10 locos, go for the Super Chief set. If you think that MAYBE you will need to run more than 10 locos in the future, get the Zephyr now and add a DCS100 command station at that later point when you need the extra capacity.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

For me, DCC. Not a lot of wires and wildness going on.

[Anonymous]

Rrinker thankyou very much for your post I will now have to seriously rethink my choice.

[rrinker]

BTW, I'm STILL trying to figure out if the Zephyr actually has a true 12 slots instead of 10 as advertised. I have it all hooked up to my laptop using a Locobuffer and Decoder Pro, and when I watch the Slot Monitor I see it load up to 12 slots before I get a FF Full error. I don;t have 12 locos ready to run right not, at least not 12 that would run in the 2.5 amps (I DID run 8 at one time, no problem - they were all P2K and Stewart units though).
So the magic number may be 12 locos. 10 throttles.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

oh sorry can't help you out with that one.