Hello everyone, who do you have in the Super Bowl ???? I have my trains running with a adult beverage in hand relaxing, tomorrow, that's my day, I have a question , its about helixes, my layout is a Nscale two level layout in the Cascade mountains of Oregon, I'm running mdern era trains, what I'm using now is a woodland scenic incline as my grade from the first level to the next, the problem is that the I really don't have the height I would like between each decks, sorry for the long winded question, LOL" can someone tell me what goes into planning for a helix, who makes the best helix kits, and can I see some pictures of your helix? Thanks for any infomation that would help!!! Take Care Trainsrme1
Da Bears!
Oh wait, my bad.
The Chiefs!
Alton Junction
TracksideScenery.com sell helix kits made out of Gatorboard. If cost is an issue, you could make one out of laminated Luann.
I did the Trackside Scenry helix.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
To me a helix is a waste of space. In HO scale it takes up at least nine square feet and you wind up with is a lot of empty space in the middle. Might I suggest that you think about what you could do with the space. Also what is the grade between the lower and upper levels. Are you running DC or DCC which makes a difference, since you are running modeern era, DCC allows you have DPU locomotives allowing you to run your trains up steeper grades.
caldreamer To me a helix is a waste of space. In HO scale it takes up at least nine square feet and you wind up with is a lot of empty space in the middle. Might I suggest that you think about what you could do with the space. Also what is the grade between the lower and upper levels. Are you running DC or DCC which makes a difference, since you are running modeern era, DCC allows you have DPU locomotives allowing you to run your trains up steeper grades.
I'm not a real big fan of the "tall" helix, but please tell me how you can build one in 9 sq ft? - 18" radius? That's crazy. That requires a grade of 3.6% plus the resistance of such a sharp curve puts you at over 4% effective grade.
Great if you like 4 car trains.
Any really useful HO helix should be built at 32" radius, 36" radius is better.
That requires 36 sq ft.
BUT, if you plan it right you build scenery on top of the helix, so the space is not lost.
I have designed and help buid several such layouts for friends over the years.
My new layout will have two "single turn" helixes just to create more of an illusion of distance as the mainline passes thru a backdrop from one scene to another.
They take up zero space since they are under the scenery.
Look closely at the track plan on the two peninsulas.
Of course I have no idea how much space the OP has or what kind of plan he has in mind.
Sheldon
richhotrain Da Bears! Oh wait, my bad. The Chiefs!
Superbowl?
TrainsRMe1my layout is a N scale two level layout
___
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Atlantic Central you are correct about the space needed. The area inside of the helix is dead space not usable for anything unless you can come up with some ideas for the use of the space.
caldreamer Atlantic Central you are correct about the space needed. The area inside of the helix is dead space not usable for anything unless you can come up with some ideas for the use of the space.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Da Bears! Oh wait, my bad. The Chiefs! Superbowl?
Or, maybe it was just wishful thinking.
Rich
I have operated on two layouts that had helixes (or is that helices?). One involved situation where two rooms at two rather significantly different floor levels was involved and a helix was essential. The other was the more traditional two deck layout but the helix was in a corner that was unobtrusive and the layout owner had the idea of locating his dispatcher in the center of the helix! It worked until his favorite dispatcher just got too old to crawl into it. Both layouts were big ones that filled the respective owners' basements.
The other helix was topped with a farm scene that had no trains whatever on it. It was like the top of a top hat. It was a very effective scene but at 6'8" tall I was probably the only operator who truly could see and appreciate it!
I have also visited many layouts that had a helix. The amount of space they take up seems to matter less when the overall layout is really large and the layout design is able to shove it into a corner.
While a helix does indeed take up space, the alternative (a steady grade through a great length of layout) comes at its own costs in terms of local switching, realistic operations, and maximizing the usable layout space on BOTH levels. And if you level out the track at each small town, now you are introducing even larger grades for the actual parts that rise.
From an operator's perspective and many others have expressed the same reaction, if the track inside the helix is totally hidden you tend to gradually up the speed of your train because you are afraid it might have stalled, with the sometimes hilarious result that trains shoot out of the helix at Acela speeds! And needless to say, while ALL your track should be "bulletproof" and trouble-free, a helix really ups the ante on that.
The late Jim Hediger told a funny story about the first helix he ever built, with the help of modeler friend Dick Cecil (the guy seen building the layout in the well known "World's Greatest Hobby" video). Dick and Jim got so carried away constructing the helix that they forgot to keep laying track at each layer, so by the time all six or whatever levels were finished they realized to their dismay that they faced the almost impossible task of trying to lay track on each level. They both came to the realization at the exact same moment. They tried and tried and finally had to dismantle most of it and re do it.
Dave Nelson
TrainsRMe1 Hello everyone, who do you have in the Super Bowl ???? I have my trains running with a adult beverage in hand relaxing, tomorrow, that's my day, I have a question , its about helixes, my layout is a Nscale two level layout in the Cascade mountains of Oregon, I'm running mdern era trains, what I'm using now is a woodland scenic incline as my grade from the first level to the next, the problem is that the I really don't have the height I would like between each decks, sorry for the long winded question, LOL" can someone tell me what goes into planning for a helix, who makes the best helix kits, and can I see some pictures of your helix? Thanks for any infomation that would help!!! Take Care Trainsrme1
My layout is N Scale, and the helix is three-and-a-half turns with a 2% grade and 28.25" radius (approx 52" radius for HO equivalent). Here is a sequence of sketches and photos to show the design and construction:
There's a pretty lengthy narrative that goes along with each of these photos and sketches, but no reason to go into that now.
The whole shebang was very easy to accomplish. I can't seem to understand why there is so much drama and consternation about building a helix.
Hope this helps.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICKMy layout is N Scale, and the helix is three-and-a-half turns with a 2% grade and 28.25" radius (approx 52" radius for HO equivalent). Here is a sequence of sketches and photos to show the design and construction:
Very nicely constructed.
Did you have a formula to determine the length and width of the segments, and the angle between?
MR recently had a construction article for a helix with a formula, but there were some errors that made it hard (for me) to follow.
Already answered. Scenery.
maxman ROBERT PETRICK My layout is N Scale, and the helix is three-and-a-half turns with a 2% grade and 28.25" radius (approx 52" radius for HO equivalent). Here is a sequence of sketches and photos to show the design and construction: Did you have a formula to determine the length and width of the segments, and the angle between? MR recently had a construction article for a helix with a formula, but there were some errors that made it hard (for me) to follow.
ROBERT PETRICK My layout is N Scale, and the helix is three-and-a-half turns with a 2% grade and 28.25" radius (approx 52" radius for HO equivalent). Here is a sequence of sketches and photos to show the design and construction:
I built a two track helix, custom made for my dimensions as I added a two track main acround the top so I could have non-stop running so I can just see trains running when I'm not having an operating session.
Took me 5 months of nights, a few hours each night as work limited my time.
The instructions and video the company made for me was very helpful..
Neal
I have a combination of a nolix, where the track gains altitude through out the course of the mainline, and a helix at the end to bring the track back down to staging for continuous running. The max grade is 1.8% coming out of staging and the rest of grades or 1.5% or less. Basic track plan.
Benchwork to support the helix.
Helix under construction:
Code 100 Atlas flex attatched with tiny screws ordered from the UK
Soldered drops to every other joint, every joint soldered.
Risers initially installed on both sides of each deck joint:
Added a second set halfway between existing risers to make helilx solid.
Added a yard lead wrapping around the outside of the helix.
riogrande5761 I have a combination of a nolix, where the track gains altitude through out the course of the mainline, and a helix at the end to bring the track back down to staging for continuous running. The max grade is 1.8% coming out of staging and the rest of grades or 1.5% or less. Basic track plan.
I tried clicking on your photos to get a closer look, but I got a 404 message and Imgur says you don't exist.
Do you have dimensions and sizes, slopes, etc for your helix? Is it a store-bought kit?
Thanks.
ROBERT PETRICK The whole shebang was very easy to accomplish. I can't seem to understand why there is so much drama and consternation about building a helix. Hope this helps. Robert
The concerns are usually:
ATLANTIC CENTRAL caldreamer Atlantic Central you are correct about the space needed. The area inside of the helix is dead space not usable for anything unless you can come up with some ideas for the use of the space. Already answered. Scenery.
Inside the helix? Sure, whatever.
AEP528 ATLANTIC CENTRAL caldreamer Atlantic Central you are correct about the space needed. The area inside of the helix is dead space not usable for anything unless you can come up with some ideas for the use of the space. Already answered. Scenery. Inside the helix? Sure, whatever.
No, on top of it.
Obviously on a layout with two scenic decks the lower level of a helix is "lost space".
BUT, not everyone using a helix is building a layout with two scenic decks.
I designed a large layout for a friend that used two large helxes (both plural versions are correct) to take trains up and down from large staging yards below the layout.
On the scenic level the casual viewer did not even know the helixes were there.
And again, my new layout has two single turn helixes, simply to extend running time and change elevation as trains pass thru a backdrop. Both are covered by scenery.
I built one layout with two scenic decks - hated it long before it was complete. It did not use a helix. In my whole life, it is the only layout I took down because I did not like it. All the rest were only took down when I had to move.
Seems to me that if a layout is already going to have a turnback loop of appropriate radius at the end of a peninsula, there wouldn't be much difference in how to scenic the loop or the helix.
I'm not a fan of putting spurs and buildings inside of a turn back loop. Looks trainsetish to me. Unless its a roundhouse/engine servicing. JMO. So the only way to scenic a loop is to fill it with scenery....best if its a mountain because that's when nature would cause a need for a loop, as opposed to scencking the relatively tight radius 180 degree loop like its in the wide open Texas panhandle. All JMO.
Having said that, I think a helix in the corner of a room probably wastes a lot of interior space.
- Douglas
Doughless AEP528 ATLANTIC CENTRAL caldreamer Atlantic Central you are correct about the space needed. The area inside of the helix is dead space not usable for anything unless you can come up with some ideas for the use of the space. Already answered. Scenery. Inside the helix? Sure, whatever. Seems to me that if a layout is already going to have a turnback loop of appropriate radius at the end of a peninsula, there wouldn't be much difference in how to scenic the loop or the helix. I'm not a fan of putting spurs and buildings inside of a turn back loop. Looks trainsetish to me. Unless its a roundhouse/engine servicing. JMO. So the only way to scenic a loop is to fill it with scenery....best if its a mountain because that's when nature would cause a need for a loop, as opposed to scencking the relatively tight radius 180 degree loop like its in the wide open Texas panhandle. All JMO. Having said that, I think a helix in the corner of a room probably wastes a lot of interior space.
I hate turnback loops where you can see the whole loop.
If you look at my new track plan the peninsulas have backdrops and you do not see the other side of the "loop".
And as explained above, the loops are both one turn helixes, partly hidden to extend run and change elevation from one side of the back drop to the other.
But those peninsulas are big, so even with a backdrop, the scene on each side is deep, 3-4 feet or more.
I always find it interesting the assumptions people make about track plans in these kinds of discussions.
My layout was carefully designed to limit the amount views "outside the curve" and for none of those situations to show a whole "loop".
Depending on your goals, the helix is a useful tool, but it does come at several costs.
ROBERT PETRICK riogrande5761 I have a combination of a nolix, where the track gains altitude through out the course of the mainline, and a helix at the end to bring the track back down to staging for continuous running. The max grade is 1.8% coming out of staging and the rest of grades or 1.5% or less. Basic track plan. I tried clicking on your photos to get a closer look, but I got a 404 message and Imgur says you don't exist. Do you have dimensions and sizes, slopes, etc for your helix? Is it a store-bought kit? Thanks. Robert
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I hate turnback loops where you can see the whole loop. If you look at my new track plan the peninsulas have backdrops and you do not see the other side of the "loop". And as explained above, the loops are both one turn helixes, partly hidden to extend run and change elevation from one side of the back drop to the other. But those peninsulas are big, so even with a backdrop, the scene on each side is deep, 3-4 feet or more. I always find it interesting the assumptions people make about track plans in these kinds of discussions. My layout was carefully designed to limit the amount views "outside the curve" and for none of those situations to show a whole "loop". Depending on your goals, the helix is a useful tool, but it does come at several costs. Sheldon
Sheldon. I can't read the words, but are the light blue lines that bisect the peninsula's backdrops? That's the way I would scenick a turnback loop, with a tunnel or series of tunnels also placed in the right spot.
A person could do the same with a tall multiloop helix. Just make the radius at the outer entrances and exits of the helix quite a bit broader than the inner circle.
A person needs lots of space for a helix, IMO, but also needs lots of space to have even a turnback loop of "appropriate" radius.
I won't have the space for either,which is why I have to stick to around the room donut shaped layouts for the most part.
riogrande5761 You can go here to see bigger pictures: https://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/3737/jims-layout-topic-blog?page=6 The details: Radius 34" (Centerline inscribed on the deck pices) Grade/slope 1.73% (from the vendors tables) Source: TracksideScenry.com Construction Material: Gatorboard. I fixed down Atlas Code 100 flex track using tiny screws I ordered on Ebay from a UK vendor. They fit in the olds molded into the Atlas flextrack ties. I created a tiny hole with a pin vise first and then screwed in the tiny screws with a tiny screw driver bought in a set at the dollar store. All joints were soldered and drops added every other joint. I did have to level it, which means you have to put supports under each riser which increase in thickness at a 1.73% grade. I showed my math on a sheet in the photos provided. You can see wood blocks under each riser. That is probably the most challenging part of the setup.
Thanks for the link and for the additional info.
The photos on that other website look to be about one year ago. Have you completed the trackwork in the helix and for the surrounding approaches? Have you run trains up and down? I'm curious if there is enough finger room in case of derailments or uncouplings in the helix.
The helix photo's are from August of last year.
The photo showing the yard lead wrapping around the outside of the helix is from late October last year.
Since then I installed cardboard strips with hot glue for a scenery support base and installed plaster gauze over almost all of it.
I don't get tons of hobby time so progess isn't as fast as I'd like. I'm planning to start adding a layer of plaster over the plaster gauze this weekend.
I haven't test run trains. I'd like put in some sort of guard rails to keep any errant rollings stock from diving to the floor first. But the track in the helix looks solid and the only possible area needing tested is the transition from the lower yard into the helix.
As for finger room, I'd guess this helix has as much as any. Most helixes are designed to provide sufficient clearance but keeping the grade as gentle as possible. You sacrifice and have a steeper grade if you want more finger room, something to keep in mind.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL I hate turnback loops where you can see the whole loop. If you look at my new track plan the peninsulas have backdrops and you do not see the other side of the "loop". And as explained above, the loops are both one turn helixes, partly hidden to extend run and change elevation from one side of the back drop to the other. But those peninsulas are big, so even with a backdrop, the scene on each side is deep, 3-4 feet or more. I always find it interesting the assumptions people make about track plans in these kinds of discussions. My layout was carefully designed to limit the amount views "outside the curve" and for none of those situations to show a whole "loop". Depending on your goals, the helix is a useful tool, but it does come at several costs. Sheldon Sheldon. I can't read the words, but are the light blue lines that bisect the peninsula's backdrops? That's the way I would scenick a turnback loop, with a tunnel or series of tunnels also placed in the right spot. A person could do the same with a tall multiloop helix. Just make the radius at the outer entrances and exits of the helix quite a bit broader than the inner circle. A person needs lots of space for a helix, IMO, but also needs lots of space to have even a turnback loop of "appropriate" radius. I won't have the space for either,which is why I have to stick to around the room donut shaped layouts for the most part.
Yes, the blue lines are the backdrop. So the train goes in a tunnel on one side, travels around a one turn helix and comes out on the other side at a lower or higher elevation by about 4".
TrainsRMe1my layout is a N scale can someone tell me what goes into planning for a helix
can someone tell me what goes into planning for a helix
first need to determine the height of each level of the helix which includes the deck, track, clearance for train and thickness of finger to handle derailments which i estimate to be 2.72 in
0.50 finger 1.28 clearance 0.75 deck (1x lumber) 0.19 track 2.72 total ht
the nominal grade around the helix in simply the height above over the circumference of the helix. but the effective grade of the curve also needs to be considered. the effective grade is estimated to be 17.5 / rad for N-gauge.
the table below (corrected) shows value for various radii, where a 30" radius results in a total grade of 2%
rad ht circ gr eff-gr tot-gr 18.0 2.72 113.1 2.40 % 0.97 % 3.4 % 20.0 2.72 125.7 2.16 % 0.88 % 3.0 % 22.0 2.72 138.2 1.97 % 0.80 % 2.8 % 24.0 2.72 150.8 1.80 % 0.73 % 2.5 % 26.0 2.72 163.4 1.66 % 0.67 % 2.3 % 28.0 2.72 175.9 1.54 % 0.62 % 2.2 % 30.0 2.72 188.5 1.44 % 0.58 % 2.0 % 32.0 2.72 201.1 1.35 % 0.55 % 1.9 % 34.0 2.72 213.6 1.27 % 0.51 % 1.8 % 36.0 2.72 226.2 1.20 % 0.49 % 1.7 % 38.0 2.72 238.8 1.14 % 0.46 % 1.6 % 40.0 2.72 251.3 1.08 % 0.44 % 1.5 %