Not a stickler for prototype modelling, and lean more towards proto-freelance, so there would be as you said "a vast amount of modeler's license" applied. I do not wish to torment myself, or anyone who would come to operate here, with some strict rules of operations. If it's work and not fun, then it's not worth doing.
Though I'm worried that trying to find some of these steam locos will be a wild goose chase. Leading into L@@K and R@RE ebay auctions that could drain my wallet because some seller thinks a piece of plastic or metal is worth many 100s of $. Everybody is trying to cash on things nowadays.
What I like to DO is a bit of everything: switching industries, building/breaking trains up and classifying cars, or just plain running. I would like my railroad to have a life of it's own, and as had been said many times elsewhere, be part of a railroad "system".
I'd like to be able to railfan the layout as well, so definitely not plywood pacific, but believable enough.
Not big on passenger service, though wouldn't mind having a train or two just because. But predominantly moving freight from A to B to C...
YouTube Channel
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One other thing that might help the desing, is to list the things you want to DO, not necessarily the PLACES you want to include.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
As a fellow Pennsy modeler, I think that if your aim is to have the needle move more toward prototypical operation, modeling the lower Delmarva peninsula is an excellent choice - if it were I would definitely move the timeline back to the 50s (which is the era I model with a vast amount of modeler's licence to allow me to run the bronze streamlined K-4 at the head of one of the crack passenger trains).
Look for inspiration in Don Ball's "Pennsylvania Railroad 40s-50s" - pages 90-91. There's the Baldwin switcher pulling cars off of the "Captain Edward Richardson", an L-1 pulling a string of reefers out of Wilmington (staging on your railroad), and K-4 pulling a work train "in the weeds", and an ancient, rusted out D16sb 4-4-0. Seems like 8-9 car trains would be more than appropriate there ...
Originally, the concept was to model Wilmington, DE area on the lower deck, couple of industries there, the Edgemoor Yard, and Port of Wilmington (Wilmington Marine). Then dedicate the upper deck to Delmarva Peninsula and portion of the branch line there.
But looking at the peninsula...
...it's a long stretch south to Cape Charles.
Also, Cape Charles has this nifty feature of a car ferry to Norfolk, VA.
So now my thinking is not to model Wilmington area at all. Make that staging on one side instead, and let the "big" railroad sort cars destined for the peninsula and deliver them to me. Then, I would model portion of the peninsula and have a local yard (or two?) where the prototype had them.
Instead of starting at the top, I would start at the bottom of the penunsula, with Cape Charles being on the lower deck, and the line going north towards, eventually climbing the helix to the upper deck, and ultimately ending up in the staging (by going down the helix to below the lower deck).
I think I would like to have continuous running so Cape Charles would have to have some kind of a (hidden) connection to the helix, despite it terminating with a car ferry.
To me this also means that I need to have a place for the car ferry itself, which I would like to be off the main benchwork. I've seen modelers put them on wheels/cart so it could be rolled out of the way when not needed. That would represent Norfolk, VA e.g. staging.
Another complication is that as far as I can tell, by the early 70s everything was gone in Cape Charles. Back in the day, they used to have a large yard, engine facilities, turntable/roundhouse, etc.
Thus I need to decide whether to rewind the clock to 1955 instead, and run some steam and 1st gen. diesels; or stay in the 70s, put a local yard elsewhere, and go diesels only.
I started with a 10 ft. train length, which kinda seemed doable, but now it will probably end up being 9, or even 8 ft, so there's more separation between places.
Trainz,
A couple of quick thoughts on your latest comments:
You are right in that the upper design of the room with open area in the west (G Shape) would probably give a better yard design for the layout in terms of ease of design. It looks like the room configuration is going to be somewhat reliant on the yard design….
However, this brings up a couple of design decisions (givens and druthers) that might be relevant:
The first is how long are the trains going to be on the layout? My room is designed for 10 car trains…I quickly blew through that and do have trains that won’t fit in the yard, but my point is that per the design every thing is able to be fairly compact. I can pull an entire cut from one of the yard storage tracks and still stay withing yard limits….
The way the upper design (opening west – G shape) has the yard roughed in, your lead is not big enough to hold the all the contents of some of the storage tracks essentially turning the south wall into a giant yard lead…
I guess the next consideration is what types of trains are gong to run and what are they going to do? Is this design a display situation? Will there be trains originating from the yard and returning? Are there switching locations on the layout? What will the industries be and where will the traffic originate and return to? …Do you want to have a way top turn trains at the top or is the idea that trains run back down the helix on their way through to somewhere else?
I’m sure you have thought about these things but the answers to these questions will help you decide how much yard you need and how to design it. I decided to go with less yard to fit things comfortably in the space. The purpose of the yard has evolved over time to be a storage yard for just a couple of industries with the traffic originating mainly from staging as opposed to a yard to build and break lots of trains.
(using option E – Redesigned version opening east) I could see starting the yard tracks with a pinwheel ladder on the East wall and then opening up full on the south wall – if the storage tracks were smaller you would have room to pull a cut on the lead (east wall) without fouling the helix and you could have room for engine service (if you wanted it) in the south west corner
Another issue I spent lots of time on is; do you want to be able to turn trains on a wye or turntable to switch their direction? How will the traffic flow work in that regard? I have two reversing loops and wyes at two levels to give the layout more flexibility…
Too much from me,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Unfortunately I cannot move the helix anywhere beyond its current location. The area below the helix is our main basement hallway with closet space along the other side of the layour room wall. Also, below the helix is a wall just 44" away. I must leave enough space there for access to the rest of the basement.
The reasons for the 1st option (G shape) is that it hides the entire railroad, so when you enter you only see a portion of the layout thus making it appear larger.Also, I belive the G offers more longest straight sections versus the E, with a curve yard fitting in that lower right corner, leaving the longest wall and the entire peninsula for other items. The compromise is that the longest wall is only 20" deep though.Lastly, I could pinch the benchwork on the bottom, just above the right house support column, to enlarge the pinch point a bit.
Though as suggested, I've re-worked the E shape (2nd option) by moving the peninsula 1 ft to the right, and enlarging the entrance area. Also increased the width of the benchwork to the left just above the entrance.
Problem is that no matter whether I move the peninsula blob back or forth, it always falls on the yard ladder (in the pinch point at that), assuming the yard is on the longest wall starting after the curve to the right. Engine facility could be on the short wall going up.
So the yard lead would end up going down the short wall towards the entrance and the yardmaster/switcher would be gravitating around the upper left corner and the pinch point where the ladder is.
I do not see a reason to make the yard double-ended because there won't be that much traffic to warrant 2 switching crews, and there's no space for them.
If I move the yard to the opposite end (upper right), it makes a bit of an awkward position (in the nook) with a turnback curve.
Another possibility might be to put the yard on the bottom wall, but I'm not sure there's enough space, seeing how tight that area appears.
I'm always concerned with people traffic, even though this layout might not see more than 3-4 people at best, since there's just not enough room for more. Most of the time it would be just me, and I might drag my spouse into it on.
Trainzluvr,
Viewing the room configuration makes things a bit clearer. I would choose the lower option and make the peninsula a little shorter to give you maybe 48” or 50” clearance between the end of the peninsula and the opposite deck. I hear you on that extra 6” – it does make a difference. You can however have bigger decks at the ends of the room – just not on the sides…
I think it will work better to have an open area as you enter your layout room. You can also see down both aisles more easily (as opposed to having to walk to the other end of the room to see around the peninsula). It will also give you a space to bring things into the room and make it easier to maneuver large objects in the space.
It looks like you can push the helix somewhat out of the space – I might try pushing the helix as far to the outside as you can and have the post off-center in the helix to the layout side of the helix. You will have to be able to reach it from the outside in the layout room, but that shouldn’t be a problem….
You are correct in that I had nowhere to put the helix except inside the room. I do have a decent sized scene over the top of it and I am happy with the compromise in that aisle.. I also did not put a double deck in over the yard so that as you enter in the room it looks much bigger and feels more open when you work the yard in that 30” aisle. That meant putting the yard on one side of the peninsula – but that seemed to work out. There is a PDF on my website explaining my design choices for the yard to get most mileage out of the space while still having the rustic look I was after…
Below is a shot of the top of the helix under construction:
There is lots more to say but I’ll leave it here for now,
@trainnut1250
I'm actually familiar with your railroad from before because it occupies the same space I have. Although my space is not fully 13' wide but 12'6", which has been a real pain in the rear (those +6" would make a lot of difference in aisle space).
What I find intriguing with your layout plan (I found it in MRH) is that you've chosen to dedicate a significant portion of the layout space/aisle to the helix - I guess there was no room for it elsewhere?
My helix will be in one of the house support columns, so kinda out of the way which is both a blessing and a curse.
I have come up with two possible options for my layout shape. These are just sketches and do not represent final placement of the track.
Both are neither here nor there as it's evident and I'm trying to figure out which one gives me the most optimal arrangement/use of space.
The red arrow would be the main direction of traffic from the helix (staging below).
The way prototype is, the Edgemoor yard is at the very top and the traffic goes South via New Castle Secondary, pitstops at the Port of Wilmington on the way to Delmarva Branch. The helix and the upper deck are supposed to represent the Delmarva Branch.
I am still working on the schematic before I actually figure out placement of towns.
TrainzLuvr And now I found out there was also a car ferry too on the Delaware River going to the DuPont facility in NJ (shut down by Conrail, but during Penn Central it was still running).
The RDG had a car ferry from Pigeon Point (the blue line sticking out into the river at the bottom of the map) but it was RDG only. It went to Carney's Point and Thompson's Point, NJ (both Dupont facilities). If you look on Google maps satellite view you can see the remains of the float bridges.
The RDG also had a "Deepwater" pier further down the Delaware from Pigeon Point (just barely visible on Google Satelite view) where they would take the explosives from the Dupont plants to be loaded on vessels for export.
Our rooms are nearly the same size – mine is 22’ X 13’. I have a double deck (triple deck if you include staging below the third deck) around the walls design with peninsula and a helix in the corner.
My aisles are 30” wide on the yard side with a 26” pinch point on the other side of the peninsula. The trackplan is pretty complicated with tons of hidden staging and hidden return loops. The layout is operable as a point to point for OPS and as a display layout with loops on each level.
From what I can gather reading your posts, I would put the yard on the bottom deck as close to the helix as you can. This way you have trains originating or exchanging/picking up cars in the yard and then you have a long run to the farthest point on the top – making a good length run for the operator (the whole purpose of double deck to begin with). This also gives the feel of originating in the valley or low ground and then running to the mountains….Several of my friends also have similar yard placements on their double decks.
A couple of things to consider: I wouldn’t make the aisles too narrow. Although my bottom decks are 24” wide and the aisles are 30”, the layout has an area between the end of the peninsula and the deck along the wall that is much wider than 30” – I am very happy I did this – It give the operators and visitors a more spacious feel in an otherwise tight space.
I would spend some time figuring out your traffic flow and the possible industries and trains that will run before you decide town placement etc….. Don’t be afraid to switch things up if they don’t fit or work as they appear on the prototype….
Lastly I will say that it can be a bit of a puzzle to fit a double deck into a room this size, with careful planning and clever design, it can be done in a way that you will be satisfied once you get it up and running.
Here is a video of my layout so you can get an idea of how I approached thigs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhdoKYCAadY&list=PLnxQpj82XbtoGG46eQx2UC56B0sVjs73g
Check the website Layout tour section in my signature as well…
Wilmington is one heck of a place, so much stuff going on there with so many railroads.
And, it looks like it nicely fits with what I want to model: yard (Edgemoor), smaller port (Port of Wilmington), local industries and a number of branchlines to pick from. And now I found out there was also a car ferry too on the Delaware River going to the DuPont facility in NJ (shut down by Conrail, but during Penn Central it was still running).
Also found an image of this old (1939) map of Wilmington, and painfully stitched it together. It includes the P&R/Reading RR line to a few industries and down to the Delaware River:
Prototype-wise, looking at Penn Central in the early 70s in the area around Wilmington, DE with New Castle Branch/Port of Wilmington, and portion of the Delmarva Branch on the upper deck.
I model the P&R/RDG Wilmington & Northern Branch from Wilmington up to Birdsboro.
Checkout the June 1971 Model Railroader for a double deck plan.
I like the placement because holding a train at the yard is plausible.
Ah!
I'm going for 18" separation since I'm over 6 ft tall and I find it that 14-16" just isn't enough, once you account for the deck thickness and fascia.
Unfortunately, that only means more loops on the helix. Though I have been contemplating an elevator/lift instead, but can't find a good spot for it.
TrainzLuvr How high is your upper deck though because with 2 loops on the helix, you are only gaining 7-8" elevation?
How high is your upper deck though because with 2 loops on the helix, you are only gaining 7-8" elevation?
There is a bit of "nolix" involved - to gain about 6" on the first level from 42" to around 48", second level is about 56-60" to get about 14" separation between levels.
PennsyLou thanks for posting your plan. I wish I had that extra foot of width (13'->14') in my space. It has been a sore spot from the very beginning causing pinch points anywhere I thought to put the peninsula blob.
riogrande5761, been following your progress since the start, alas having a designated spot for a helix is ideal.
We'll see how much of a pain I'll be in for putting the helix around a support column...
I located my helix, not yet built, at the bottom of this scale drawing:
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
TrainzLuvr The room is ~22.5x13 ft. but not a perfect rectangle, one corner is missing/open. *** I'm trying to avoid putting the helix in the peninsula blob as it's a real waste of space and it creates 22" pinch points. The helix is already 5 ft. across (double track 26" + 28.5").
The room is ~22.5x13 ft. but not a perfect rectangle, one corner is missing/open.
***
I'm trying to avoid putting the helix in the peninsula blob as it's a real waste of space and it creates 22" pinch points. The helix is already 5 ft. across (double track 26" + 28.5").
Interesting ... the new double deck layout I'm constructing (proto-freelance PRR in NJ and eastern Pennsylvania) is in a approx. 14' x 22' room - the extra foot of width allowed me to put the helix at the end of the peninsula and still have 24"+ min pinch points for the aisles. The straight run needed for the yard required it to be located on the back wall by necessity - this is once around the room from East staging or about 3/4 of the way thru the 1st level. Westbound the double track main leaves the yard, travels down the peninsula and up a 2 turn helix to the 2nd level then down the peninsula and around the room again and out the peninsula to a reversing loop and visible staging (this sits "on top" of the helix so it is not a waste of space). I envision most operations to be out-and-back from the main yard or through East to West staging or vice versa with a stop for pickup/setouts and possibly a motive power change at the yard.
It would be both single operator, and friends for OPS.
Main yard would be Edge Moor, which is fed by thru trains from a Wilmington bypass via Shellpot Branch.
That all looks good on paper and works for the prototype, but I'll have to take some creative freedoms here.
The yard would serve as a class. yard so through trains would set and pick cars up, and locals would run from the yard to destinations on the lower and upper deck.
So I'm placing it around a support column, which then poses another problem. It sits 1/2 way inside the room and 1/2 way in the hallway. Because I want to maintain the direction of movement after climbing out of staging, the exit to the lower deck comes after the entrance for the upper deck climb.
The solution for this I guess would be to have the entrance track for the upper deck go around the helix to the opposite side, while climbing up. But I don't have the real estate for that. I'd be creating a pinch point inside and intruding into the hallway outside, catch-22.
TrainzLuvrI'm not talking about a prototype here, but practicality of whether there should be 1 long and 1 very short run, or should there be 2 medium length runs, assuming that trains are coming from both directions.
Depends on what you are modeling and what type of yard.
If it is a yard where trains are terminated, reswitched and the cars come back out on different trains, most people put that yard at the end of the run. That represents a yard where the crerws would change, so rather than a have half a run for crew A and half a run for crew B, they have an entire run for one crew.
If its a yard where through trains just stop and set out and pick up cars at the yard and the only trains the yard runs are locals then the "yard in the middle" makes sense because you can run locals out in 2 directions.
You would probably get more replys if you gave the rooms size and shape. Also are you planning to be a single operator, or friends over for op sessions?
I'm creating a new plan for a double-deck HO layout. Currently, I've located the yard at the end of the lower deck, just before the helix to go up. This somewhat puts the yard half-way on the layout.
A train would climb up from staging 3-4 loops of helix for a total of 36-48 ft. Once on the lower deck, ~90 ft. before entering the helix again to climb to the upper deck.
In the helix again, almost 5 loops to climb 18" totalling ~60 ft.
Then ~90 ft or so on the upper deck before entering the helix for the (long) descent back to staging, 9 loops or 90+ ft.
What is the consensus for placing the yard and helix along the path?
Should the yard be right after staging, or somewhere at a mid-way point?
I'm not talking about a prototype here, but practicality of whether there should be 1 long and 1 very short run, or should there be 2 medium length runs, assuming that trains are coming from both directions.