Starting a tangent off a recent thread:
I'm not saying I WOULD or even COULD do this... so let's not get hysterical, but if.... IF....a fella were to set out on an epic quest to build this in HO scale...
gmpullmanThe Cleveland Union Terminal "Motors" then: CUT_1050crop by Edmund, on Flickr And much later (now classed P-2b) Penn-Central P-2b 4641 by Edmund, on Flickr
CUT_1050crop by Edmund, on Flickr
And much later (now classed P-2b)
Penn-Central P-2b 4641 by Edmund, on Flickr
By "reasonable", I'm going to have to ask at least half of you to leave the room (and you know who you are), because you won't be able to stomach the idea of anything that isn't prototype. But I'm talking about something almost impressionistic, something to which the word "freelance" would have no trouble sticking. I'm imagining standing 8 feet away and squinting and having something that looks anything at all like this locomotive. Never mind how I would power it and make it go. Right now I'm just thinking of what it would take to create a static model.
I know that it would probably be cheaper and far less trouble just to buy a brass model [ <--- there, I've said that much, so we don't have to spend any more time on it. ] What I'm thinking of is... I see that people mentioned how similar the GG1 is to this. Would a GG1 chassis be a candidate if I could get one cheapish? Other ideas? Has any of you ever built trucks out of wheels and styrene? Are there already component parts to do this? Or is this just the loopiest nonstarter that ever was?
Boy, I have a feeling I'm going to have a real hard time managing this thread. But go ahead. I can take it. I may just be quiet for a long while and take the pounding.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
If you were going to build this, yes a GG1 would be a good starting point, plus it would automatically give you two pantographs.
The body could be made of styrene or possibly kitbashed from caboose bodies.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My first thought for the body would be to try to get ahold of 2-3 of the old MDC/Roundhouse boxcab diesels and splice them together. You'd have to figure out something for the curved ends of the NYC engine's body but it would be a start.
https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/sr201306_boxcab.pdf
p.s. It would be cheaper to buy one of the old MTH O scale P2s, they sell cheaper than the HO brass ones do. Plus they run on three-rail track so would be easy to convert to pantograph or outside third rail, depending which version you choose. (Cleveland Union Terminal used pantographs, when they were sent east to NYC's line out of Manhattan, they used outside third rail.)
Hello All,
crossthedogOr is this just the loopiest nonstarter that ever was?
What a great project!
Now, slightly......
I am a big fan of specialty flatcars; heavy-duty 6-axle, 60 ton Gunderson Well, and multi-axled and truck depressed center.
My pike is based on a coal mine branch loop.
Lots of oversized loads for the mine arrive on specialty flatcars negotiating 15-inch curves and #2 turnouts.
As I look at the 2-C+C-2 configuration of this locomotive, the first thing that comes to mind is "minimum radius."
Just like the articulation of multi-truck flatcars, from what I can deduce from the photographs is, the truck assembly seems to be double-articulated.
From a modeler's perspective the cab unit could be easily replicated with a Gas-Electric box cab.
Reproducing (scratch building) the truck assemblies is going to be the challenge.
From the photographs- -the leading trucks seem to articulate independently from the side frames that support the traction motors.
The center pin of the entire truck assembly is the attachment point to the cab.
If I were to model the 2-C+C-2 truck assembly I'd look at Northwest Short lines Standon drives.
Perhaps the 38-inch assembly.
Even though these are only two-axle units, a third dummy pair of wheels could be mounted inboard of the drive wheels.
InterMountain Railway Company makes HO-scale 38-inch wheels.
For the leading two-axle units, 28-inch scale wheels might provide the clearance needed for the front articulating trucks.
Using the Stanton drives- -over traditional center-mounted motor/drivetrain configuration- -allows for the area previously occupied by these components to be used for easier installation of sound, ESDs, and other components.
Thank you for sharing your "what if" project.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Was it Ben Franklin or Winston Churchill that said "You're a day late and a dollar short"? Or maybe it was Groucho Marx.
Maybe two years ago I bought one of these "toy" models from an eBay seller:
N-H_EP-3_3 by Edmund, on Flickr
It was less than $25. including shipping! I knew it was a "toy" but it really looks pretty decent for a non-operating display model (it included a display track).
N-H_EP-3_1 by Edmund, on Flickr
My intention was to use it as fodder for a scrap yard scene but after a while I thought it was just too nice for that fate.
N-H_EP-3_2 by Edmund, on Flickr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Haven_EP-2
It would certainly give you some very reasonable pieces to work with, especially the much sought after box-cab. Even the truck sideframes could be affixed to an operating HO truck, even one from a six-axle diesel. Who would know?
Here's the guts of a Broadway Limited GG1:
BLI_GG1_Parts by Edmund, on Flickr
At one time there was a fairly reasonable GG1 from IHC or Rivarossi, I forget which, that wasn't too bad in the performance/cost ratio. Pemco, Penn-Line, Mehano and others. The Broadway design is pretty robust including two motors but even from eBay or the Broadway "Refurb Depot" they still command something in the $250 range (and up). The Bachmann issue can be found at fairly reasonable prices, too.
I'll do some scouring of eBay and see if I can find anything similar to the New Haven electric I show above. I recall wanting to buy a few more and couldn't find them any more
I'm glad to be the happy owner of a pair of Overland C.U.T. P-1as. One of my favorites!
Cleveland Union Terminal P-1a by Edmund, on Flickr
[edit] After doing some Google sleuthing I have discovered the above New Haven model was produced for an outfit called Atlas Editions (I don't see any affiliation with Atlas Model Railroad Co.). There's a few various examples on eBay and some of the other sites.
This one is listed from Germany and I'm sure the "free Shipping" has the starting price bumped up quite a bit.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165464047039
Or this? (I don't know a thing about Ali Express)
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255799826107056.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US
I think your project has merit.
Good Luck, Ed
Hi Matt,
Absolutely not! You have been given some great suggestions regarding what models would be a good starting point.
The roof part of the rounded ends might take a bit of work because of the compound curves, but they could be carved out of wood just like the ends of the old passenger car kits' roofs were. When finished properly the woodgrain won't show. The rest of the shell looks to be fairly straight forward.
As has been mentioned, there are several possibilities for making the drive system up. I have a couple of the Stanton drives and they work really well, although it might be cheaper to get a doner GG1.
I would definitely go for it. It will be a learning experience and a lot of fun!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
https://iehobbies.com/products/model-engineering-works-cleveland-union-terminal-electric-locomotive-class-p-1a-unpainted
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Hi Bear,
That is a very interesting find! Your search skills are definitely far superior to mine!
I'm still of the opinion that the OP should do a scratchbuild. That, IMHO, will provide far more modeling entertainment than putting a ready made locomotive on his layout.
Hi again Matt,
I just came across a very appropriate quote for your project:
Jim Rohn, an American entreprenure, said the following: "Whatever good things we build end up building us".
I think that describes scratchbuilding perfectly!
hon30critterI'm still of the opinion that the OP should do a scratchbuild.
1) I do not have any knowledge about “lehobbies”.
2) I do not know how good the “Model Engineering Works” products are.
3) The same HO scale brass locomotives from other manufacturers appear to cost moonbeams!
4) Suitable donor GG1 locomotives, like the Broadway Limited one, Ed depicted also appear to be as rare as hen teeth and priced accordingly.
I remember finding an MEW P-1a at a local train show. Couldn't wait to get it home and on the layout (back in DC days).
Well, coffee grinder doesn't even begin to describe the nasty gearing on these locomotives. Never did get that thing to travel more than a metre or two without the gears jamming up.
The NJ Custom Brass is only slightly better. Sadly, these specialty electrics still command a premium.
Still, on a budget, a Bachmann, Rivarossi (AHM, IHC) GG1 base and a cobbled-together box-cab might still be in the works.
https://www.trains.com/mrr/news-reviews/reviews/staff-reviews/bachmann-ho-scale-sound-value-gg1/
I've always had an eye for those Rh-B Crocodiles. Thought they were neat! The PRR had a similar beast as I show in the other post. I could almost be convinced to bite on this but it is just a tad out of reach.
I did treat myself to a PRR FF1 a while back. I do love the sight of those side rods flailing about:
PRR_FF1_3931 by Edmund, on Flickr
You can find some inspiration here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55122337@N06/albums/72157679711193741
It CAN be done:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55122337@N06/44242319445/in/album-72157679711193741/
Morning all. I wanted you to know I had not abandoned my post (<--- ha! See what I did there?). What a load of great suggestions! I really expected crickets or a list of reasons why the idea was crackers.
I don't have the time today to respond individually to everyone who so thoughtfully posted photos and -- my gosh -- did such thorough research! I'm actually still trying to get through all the links. But thanks to all of you.
I will say here, though, that Ed, your models of the C.U.T. motors are outrageously attractive. What I like best is how those anti-hunting platforms jut out behind and ahead of the cab, like the prow and stern of a ship.
gmpullman2) I do not know how good the “Model Engineering Works” products are. I remember finding an MEW P-1a at a local train show. Couldn't wait to get it home and on the layout (back in DC days). Well, coffee grinder doesn't even begin to describe the nasty gearing on these locomotives. Never did get that thing to travel more than a metre or two without the gears jamming up.
I remember finding an MEW P-1a at a local train show. Couldn't wait to get it home and on the layout (back in DC days). Well, coffee grinder doesn't even begin to describe the nasty gearing on these locomotives. Never did get that thing to travel more than a metre or two without the gears jamming up.
I haven’t been able to find a dimensional drawing but what with the dimensions given here…
I've got a copy of the original GE clearance drawing that I'll have to get digitized some day. It is about 2 x 8 feet. I did post this on the other Collinwood thread.
NYC_motor_P1a by Edmund, on Flickr
The MEW model as well as the NJ Custom one is pretty close to dimensional accuracy, maybe a bit of added "air-space" above the trucks, to be expected for a mosel to operate on our curves. Detail wise the MEW is "minimalist at best and the NJCB is only a tad better. Relief on the truck sideframes is next to none.
I'd really think it would be a neat project to tackle one of these Crocodiles and make a go of an operating HO model. I used to have one of the #1 gauge LGB models
Ebay Crocodile:
Fun Stuff, Ed
gmpullmanI've got a copy of the original GE clearance drawing that I'll have to get digitized some day.
I'll have to bump this up on my priority list!
GE_P-1a-legend by Edmund, on Flickr
GE_P-1a-end by Edmund, on Flickr
GE_P-1a_right by Edmund, on Flickr
GE_P-1a-pivot by Edmund, on Flickr
My time machine is a two-seater. Want to come along?
CUT_P1a-construction-Erie by Edmund, on Flickr
CUT_P1a_Dedication-Erie by Edmund, on Flickr
Note the pantograph extension to reach the too-high wire at the GE test track in Erie.
Cheers, Ed
I haven’t been able to find a dimensional drawing
While I can't be so helpful as to even guess at a year, there was an article maybe back in the 80's where someone used an HO scale GG1 model (Mehano or Rivarossi maybe) and made a boxcab electric out of it. The author (maybe Hegge?) removed the lead and trailing trucks for his model but still had a body similar to the P-1. If my memory serves the roof was fashioned out of a wooden passenger car roof from an older Walthers kit and the body used the MDC boxcab diesel as a start. When I first read this post it reminded me of that article.
Good Luck, Morpar
Here's the address for the manufacturer
Editions Atlas SARoute des dragons 7CH-1033 Cheseaux-sur-LausanneSuisse (Switzerland)
How's that for an address? "Dragon Road" (OK, it might mean "Dragoon" - a type of cavalryman that originated as mounted infantry)
This thread has been banging around in my head for a while so when I happened to see an old AHM GG-1 for sale at a hobby shop for $20 this morning I knew it would have to come home with me. We test ran it before purchase and it did okay. Once I got it home I popped the shell off to see what the driveline looked like. In the very center is a motor (I hesitate to call it a can motor) which drives the outer and center wheels of each of the power trucks using a spring looking connector in place of a regular drive coupling. Basically think a normal model diesel driveline. The pantographs are connected by a wire which is not attached to anything but would be very easy to connect for overhead wire. The design of this locomotive would make it very easy to cut up the chassis to have the open porches in lieu of the enclosed body of the GG-1. I'm not real sure what I am going to do with this locomotive, but it does leave some options for modification the BLI model doesn't.
M
MorparThis thread has been banging around in my head for a while so when I happened to see an old AHM GG-1 for sale at a hobby shop for $20 this morning I knew it would have to come home with me...
If I were doing this -- and every time I look at the thing I get tempted -- I would start with the dummy EP-2 that one of the Chinese hobby companies posts on eBay (I won't post the eBay link as it will expire at some point, but look for seller 'Qiaowei' and search for EP 2 (1919) - I can post the link if anyone can't find it) This would appear to have at least a guide for non-GG1 sideframe detail, and I suspect the body would be relatively easy to adapt -- if nothing else, as a starting place to use Ed's drawings for detail.
Overmodlook for seller 'Qiaowei' and search for EP 2 (1919)
The New Haven EP-2 comes from al older school of 'high-speed' electric locomotive design, in which unpowered pony axles were needed to stabilize bogies/trucks (and hence a bidirectional locomotive would need pony trucks on either end of the large ones that, as in this design, supported large twin motors for quill drive. Note that these axles aren't pivoted; in fact I don't think they act as Cartazzi axles with a little constrained radial steer to their lateral. This is no different from the design found in a number of early deep-firebox engines with small trailing axles.
This was perpetuated on some electrics with three-axle underframes and no underframe articulation by keeping lateral pony axles inboard and using pin-guided lead trucks outboard, so the engines resembled a pair of Pacifics back-to-back in how they were guided.
The New Haven EP-3 would, of course, if it were available as a model 'ring all the bells' in this thread. It has a boxcab with comparatively long porches on the ends, and it has a thoroughly GG1-like undercarriage... in fact the EP-3 was the class that directly inspired the GG1s, so there is more than expedience in 'retconning' someone's GG1 chassis into one of them.
The Milwaukee Road bought (as their class EP-3, which is confusing if you don't know what you're reading about) locomotives very similar to the EP-2s. They were liked by the crews and were initially good performers... but the frames were built too lightly, and the amount of lateral suitable for Mr. Morgan's railway was not at all suitable to parts of the PCE. (This is part of why heavy cast underframes rather than composite fabricated frames came to be used under this kind of electric locomotive...)
The easiest approach if you want a longer engine is to replicate the 'double-Pacific' arrangement as you modify the EP2's frames to take an actual set of powered axles -- extend each half-frame so it has a full pin-guided lead truck and pilot, and if you like shift the pivot slightly for each half-frame so the overhang at the center of the boxcab is a bit less. This could be either an inside- or outside-bearing truck (with the GG1 engine trucks being perfectly satisfactory if a bit anachronistic choices for an engine retaining fixed lateral pony axles on the inside ends of its underframes)