Hi
I am in the process of designing my latest HO layout. This will be my biggest yet... coming in at a whopping 14' x 18'. I have never done a lift or swing out before. I have read articles and watched videos about it, and have seen many different techniques so I have a rough idea but for all that... a good portion of the options I have seen, they all seem to be single track.
I like to watch trains run and as such I am not a point to point person. I want to design a three track lift/swing up/down or out but I am having a hard time visualizing how to get it all to work.
The gate would come after a turn onto one of the 14ft sides that will be home to a small town. I thought of a double track bridge then a single track bridge and connect them somehow, but it defeats my track layout of having track 1 and 2 being separate from the elevated track 3 which is running the high route. Track 3 will not connect to 1 and 2.
I know I am getting older and the thought of the duck under isn't all that appealing. Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Part of this discussion should be your height, and your desired layout height. I am six foot, and the clearance at my duck under is 46 inches. At age 74 I as of yet have no problems.
A few years ago I was a member of a club, and the portable lay out had an entry space clearance of 36 inches. That made it a crawl under.
I mortized in a horizontal two my four to lean on when usong my duck under. Some friends use it, some don't.
Response for me is impossible on a tablet.
deckroidI want to design a three track lift/swing up/down or out but I am having a hard time visualizing how to get it all to work.
You did not mention if the removeable section is for access to the layout room, or access to an area not related to the layout.
For access to the layout room, you need to design something that will be easy to use and extremely durable.
For area access (furnace, storage room, water heater, etc.), the section can be more difficult to use and heavier. Tony Koester has a couple of these that look very well built on his NICKEL PLATE layout. MRVP had some good videos showing these in use and how they were built.
For access to the layout room, I designed my fifth SGRR layout with a drop-down bridge at the door. After a couple of years I stopped using it, and I was just running the layout as a switching layout. Then I removed it and rebuilt the track as a point-to-point.
I agree, duckunders should be avoided. You do not have the option just to leave those open when you need to go in-an-out of the layout room with supplies and materials.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
deckroid I want to design a three track lift/swing up/down or out but I am having a hard time visualizing how to get it all to work. I thought of a double track bridge then a single track bridge and connect them somehow, but it defeats my track layout of having track 1 and 2 being separate from the elevated track 3 which is running the high route. Track 3 will not connect to 1 and 2.
I want to design a three track lift/swing up/down or out but I am having a hard time visualizing how to get it all to work.
I thought of a double track bridge then a single track bridge and connect them somehow, but it defeats my track layout of having track 1 and 2 being separate from the elevated track 3 which is running the high route. Track 3 will not connect to 1 and 2.
Hi Deckroid
It's hard to visualize exactly what you're envisioning from your words as it's a bit confusing. The fact you mention track 3 being a high route spells thickness above the deck surface to your lift up or fold down access into the room to me.
A standard hinge on a fold-up would bind with any given thickness on the hinge side. A fold-down would bind at the radius of the strike side with most any given thicknesses as well.
With that said it sounds as standard hinges are obsolete for you here. This leaves you in the category of what I have called funky dunky hinges throughout the years.
Possibly a lift up hinge would work for you but I don't know your complete situation without any specs.
I used these as only an example for you as it may work but possibly may not be the flavor you need. I have used this type of hardware in conjunction with slide hardware as well. Regardless of any Specialty Hardware I can tell you no matter what you want to achieve, they do have hardware available out there for any given situation.
Being a carpenter for a very long time and doing many custom jobs, I have yet to this day not found accommodating hardware for freaky situations.
I suppose it could be done but choosing the correct specialty hardware over the internet can be difficult sometimes. For some reason they usually don't have very good illustrations of function. If you have a Rockler or Woodcraft store near you, some of those guys can be quite helpful. If they don't have it in stock they can get it reasonably quick.
Another good idea if you use lift up hinges or alike is to put guide wedges on the hinge and strike side so when your lift frame closes your track always lines up right. This would be done before you lay your track of course.
TF
I built a two-track lift-out section for a layout I was constructing in South Carolina. Here's a shot of it installed (pardon the incorrect white balance):
I went with the lift-out because it was simpler to construct and would retain it's alignment accuracy without needing periodic adjustments, which is a problem with any sort of hinged arrangement, be it a swing-up or swing-out. I used piano hinges with the pin removed for alignment. Worked pretty good!
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
As David mentioned, your height and the layout height are important fctors.
I have seen several multi track gates, but not with two elevations. I would think a lift out gate would be the easiest to build, but it would not be ideal to take it out and replace it each time you wanted to go in or out. A swing gate might work, but it will need careful enginering.
What is the elevation difference in the tracks? If they were high enough could you have the lower ones on a swing gate and the upper one as a nod under. lift out, removable if needed?
How wide were you thinking? Weight of a lift out is another factor to concider
I too am not getting any younger and am planning a multti track swing up gate to enter the room. A club that brings their layout to shows near here has one, but it is my stumbling block at the moment, get that done and things will progress faster I think.
Good luck,
Richard
Well...
There is always this option from the April, 2021 issue of Model Railroader.
-Photograph by Kevin Parson
I opted for lift-outs, as the entry-way into the layout room is only 34" wide. A swing-up would block access between upper staging and the partial upper level of the layout, while a drop-down would block access to under-layout storage.
The lift-outs are very simple pieces of 3/4" plywood, which fit into brackets, (also 3/4" plywood) that are affixed to the layout's fascia with screws.Each lift-out has a plug which fits into a receptacle on the fascia, providing track power to the lift-out when it's in-place. The two lift-outs are not interchangeable.
Here are the two lift-outs in-place...
...with room for a crawl-under below the lower one.
When not in-use, they're stored, on-edge, in the entry aisle-way, and leaning against the benchwork...
These are the support brackets on the layout-side of the aisleway...
The on-layout portion of the tracks has the rails cut-back, so that no one entering the layout room (when the lift-outs are not in-place) will accidently catch their arms or clothing on the rails...
...and the extended rails on the lift-out portion are well-secured so that they mate perfectly with cut-back on-layout portion...
...and the track on the other side of the aisleway is also cut-back...
The support brackets, mounted on the layout's fascia, were cut to create a very snug fit for the lift-outs, which ensures that the rails always line-up properly.
Eventually, I'll get around to creating "kill-sections" for the track on both levels and both sides of the aisle. They'll be powered through the lift-outs' plug-ins, so when some idiot isn't paying attention when the lift-outs are not in-place, there'll be no more locomotives kissing the concrete pilot-first.
(Obviously, I was the original idiot, have unwittingly left a coal train on a live storage track near the doorway, while performing switching moves in another area of the layout.)The train, powered by two Bachmann Consolidations was apparently moving back-and-forth with my switching moves elsewhere, and was okay until I decided to move the switching to the next on-layout town. That was enough to get the head loco on the coal train to the abyss, and it and its tender, loaded with loose "coal" hit the floor from a height of about 3', leaving the second loco hanging half-over the edge of the layout, but still connected to it's trailing train, which fortunately, was loaded with "coal" (Black Beauty blasting medium) with every hopper car of the 15-or-so weighing around 8oz. each.
The flying loco broke the knuckle off the Kadee coupler, but the other damage was minor. It was a couple of years later when I discovered that some internal screw-holding bosses had broken inside of the loco, eventually resulting in loss of gear contact. Fortunately, that too was a simple repair, and the loco works just as well as it ever did.
Wayne
I know I'll face this issue in the future but I had decided lift out was the best option. I'm building modular and despite good precision in carpentry and manufactured joints for power and alignment, temperature and humidity prevail and any sort of hinged connection will start falling out of alignment.
Thank you all for the responses! Definately something to think about.
For all the quesitons:
I want the layout to be somewhere around 48" to 56". I am 6'5" and getting older, my knees let me know this every day. This is going to be a long project but I don't want to move backwards once the framework is up. I like the lift out idea...
This is going inside of my new shop (not quite finished... no power/water yet). It will be a rectangle with one of the longer sides attached to the wall, the other three will be freestanding on legs with shelving underneath. I have a LOT of extra lumber from the build that I am sorting through. While most of the 2x6's are less than 3 ft long, they will come in handy. There is almost enough OSB to cover the whole thing, making it 28" deep. It just wont be all in one big piece. Then pink/blue foam... if I can find it! lol
George
On my 1st layout, I had a duck-under. I hated it even in my early 40s. A few years later, I vowed on my 2nd (current) layout not to have them. I'd avoid them.
While I respect disliking point-to-point, I find that setup more realistic than anything else. That's just me though.
deckroid Thank you all for the responses! Definately something to think about. For all the quesitons: I want the layout to be somewhere around 48" to 56". I am 6'5" and getting older, my knees let me know this every day. This is going to be a long project but I don't want to move backwards once the framework is up. I like the lift out idea... This is going inside of my new shop (not quite finished... no power/water yet). It will be a rectangle with one of the longer sides attached to the wall, the other three will be freestanding on legs with shelving underneath. I have a LOT of extra lumber from the build that I am sorting through. While most of the 2x6's are less than 3 ft long, they will come in handy. There is almost enough OSB to cover the whole thing, making it 28" deep. It just wont be all in one big piece. Then pink/blue foam... if I can find it! lol George
There was a story last year in RMC I believe where a guy built a swinging gate and has had no problems with alignment. That is a what I am seriously considering.
Sheldon
kasskaboose On my 1st layout, I had a duck-under. I hated it even in my early 40s. A few years later, I vowed on my 2nd (current) layout not to have them. I'd avoid them. While I respect disliking point-to-point, I find that setup more realistic than anything else. That's just me though.
OK, to each their own. But I am going to throw an idea at you, maybe two or three, about being "inside" the layout and about continuous track plans.
First, out trains running on our too sharp curves look better from the inside of the curve than the outside, so if most of the curves on the layout are viewed from the inside, that is a plus. This justifies the gate/lift out/duck under approach.
The other advantage here is maintaining continuity of direction, left is always west, right is always east. Makes it easier for the operators.
Our distances don't support point to point - too much switching at each end, not enough running trains. It would be hard for the average person to build the entire 4.5 miles of the Strasburg Rail Road let alone anything that justifies point to point.
BUT, continuous layouts, with thru staging that is hidden, operate like point to point railroads without all that rebuilding trains at both ends. Trains enter the stage on one side, and leave on the other.
And now, combining all these features you can just model one freight yard, one city/town, one engine terminal, etc, and have a reasonable length of open country running to and from the staging.
Just a thought, my interest the OP as well.
George,
Two options to consider, both of which are more complex than the typical lift-out. One is a vertical lift bridge. A design of this type was written up by Jim Murphy and published in MR. I don't know the issue, but it has also just been republished in MR Favorite Project, Winter 2022. I think the original had about 24" of lift, but longer slides are available (check woodworking suppliers - Lee Valley is one source.)
A second option is a deep swing gate. I helped design and build one for a modeler in my area. It was actually two levels, 24 inches deep. The key design feature was to build it very stiff using torsion boxes. The hinges were standard door hinges, but vertically spaced so that there was very little play. I wish we had documented the build, because it was an absolute beast of a design. I have a simplier design on my personal layout, with three tracks on two levels. Again, the hinges are standard gate hinges, but spaced vertically so that the amount of play is minimized. The tracks align vertically by having the swing board mating to a set surface. A set screw allows precise horizontal alignment that can be adjusted for seasonal changes.
Dan Fisher
Use none of the above- figure a way to get by with outone.
I have seen more ways than Sundays to use one or the other. You are setting up an non ending maintance chore to keep aligned. Unless you can anchor steel posts into concrete on both ends from movement. Still you will see problems. But TJMO!
I had a couple of op sessions on a large basement pike that had a three track lift bridge at the door way. A garage door opener would lift the bridge. As the bridge went up two metal (aluminum blocks) would lower just like the prototype. Tapered pins under the ends of the bridge section would keep everything aligned. There were micro switches that controlled the approach tracks cutting power to the tracks. Well engineered and actually tied into the door so if the door was open the bridge would not lower. When the bridge was in operation there was a red light in the stairway. Ring the doorbell and wait for the bridge to raise and the light to go out before opening the door.
Pete.
20181004_073416 on Flickr
I did have to do some minor filing this year - the wood did warp a little bit. But nothing major. I added a second mainline in parallel last year (not shown) in HOn3 and it works perfectly. I walk through it several times when I am working on the layout. Going through it is as easy as opening a door. And it will hold on its upright position without a problem.
In terms of construction, stability is key - mine is connected to the walls so it does not budge. In your case, you might want to screw down the footings of the structure on the floor. Another key is width: keeping the bridge fairly narrow will prevent major gaps and ensure strength.
I'm not sure I can picture what you want to achieve, but my understanding is that you want a multi-level liftout. That would be a challenge with a hinge. If it's wide, you might want to build it in two sections (one for the lower level track, and one for the high level track). Unless you do a lift out such as Wayne's - and it will be quite heavy if it's multi track and multi-level - I can't see how the lower track would have a snug fit it's much lower than the high level. However, if the track is straight, a 3/16'' gap should not create derailments. Trains will make noise going over the gap though.
And installing a switch that shuts the entire system down when the liftout is in an upright position would be a wise thing to do. I caught myself a few times trying to run a train with the liftout open. You don't want your favorite loco to take the big leap!
Simon