Well, I may as well add my
I agree that the legs need to be set in from the edge of the layout. What I did made the layout solid. I used 10/32 machine screws and T nuts to hold the legs to the grid, if I remove the screws the tabletop still sits there until it is lifted off. In reality, I did not need to ever put those screws in as it was still solid without them.
I have three mills and one independent lumber store within a half-hour drive of the house. I can buy lumber at the mills but nothing else, The independent store still sells screws and nails by weight out of big bins. Home depot is for the fluff. Life is good.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I agree Douglas, your approach is as good as any. If I install diagonal braces, I install the from the bench work to the leg and keep them up high, no more that one third of the way down the leg. And they go on last. I now understand (mostly) what Greg is trying to do, but in the end he will use more "parts" each of which takes more time and material, even if they are "mass produced". I use table top construction for yards, urban areas, etc, but open grid everywhere else. each section is a custom shape. This new layout, the old layout, every layout I have ever built, does/did not have uniform depth of benchwork, standardized corners, or benchwork all the same height. So every "module" is custom...... We are trying to simulate mother nature here. In this part of the world mother nature is not flat or in straight lines. Rivers, streams, bays, ocean, mountains, hills and valleys meander where they will, and railroad right of ways, highways, and human activity follow them and can only level and straighten a small portion of that. So realistic scenery dictates creative benchwork construction. Jim (RioGrande) has posted lots of pictures of his benchwork - he has the right idea. Sheldon
I agree Douglas, your approach is as good as any. If I install diagonal braces, I install the from the bench work to the leg and keep them up high, no more that one third of the way down the leg. And they go on last.
I now understand (mostly) what Greg is trying to do, but in the end he will use more "parts" each of which takes more time and material, even if they are "mass produced".
I use table top construction for yards, urban areas, etc, but open grid everywhere else. each section is a custom shape.
This new layout, the old layout, every layout I have ever built, does/did not have uniform depth of benchwork, standardized corners, or benchwork all the same height. So every "module" is custom......
We are trying to simulate mother nature here. In this part of the world mother nature is not flat or in straight lines. Rivers, streams, bays, ocean, mountains, hills and valleys meander where they will, and railroad right of ways, highways, and human activity follow them and can only level and straighten a small portion of that.
So realistic scenery dictates creative benchwork construction.
Jim (RioGrande) has posted lots of pictures of his benchwork - he has the right idea.
Sheldon
Yes, Jim's pictures show impressive benchwork. Well desgined and tidy, as well as the train room itself.
With his plan, lots of vertical scenery, its a necessity to plan the track ROW, because cutting the subroadbed to the correct arc is very important. The track plan needs to be precise before the plywood is even cut, it dictates the shape of the ply. Yards and other spots that use table tops can be a bit more free hand planned.
Yes, my around the room layouts are always anchored to a few studs in the walls. And U shaped benchwork against three walls provides natural stability that eliminates some of the concerns the OP is dealing with.
My experience with table top island type of benchwork comes from my experience as a kid with my dad. He would build workbenches and work tables for the basements (we moved a lot as a kid). He needed stability because there was always a vice at one front corner of the work table...used for holding metal to be cut by hand with a hack saw, among other projects.
Lots of back and forth stresses. The entire table would slide along the floor before it would even think about racking.
He built them with a plywood table top, and one plywood shelf attached to the inside of all four legs. Very stable and very easy to build, with functional space underneath. Used a tape measure, a straight edge, a pencil, and only a jigsaw since neatness was not an issue.
I've always built model layout benchwork with the shelf mid-height way, even when anchoring it to the wall,
- Douglas
And, as an example, most of my benchwork starts out very similar to the pictures Rich posted awhile back in this thread. And if it is going against a wall, it is getting fastened to the wall.
rrebell Just a note on screws, the black ones are generally drywall and have a very low shear strength and basic construction screws are a golden color where I live and have a much higher shear strength.
Just a note on screws, the black ones are generally drywall and have a very low shear strength and basic construction screws are a golden color where I live and have a much higher shear strength.
Here we have all three - drywall screws, "golden" anodized construction screws, and epoxy coated (usually grey) construction screws. The epoxy coated ones hold the best outdoors. I mostly buy those just to keep the inventory of different screws to a minimum.
gregc i need to build supports for a layout with cross braced legs (see below). i'm curious how others have assembled them, keeping them square and with the desired width. presumably using some sorta jig i tried using a bench with back and marks on the side to maintain the width and found that when i flipped it over to do the back brace, it wasn't square. i'll need to make quite a few and would like a simple and quick approach
i need to build supports for a layout with cross braced legs (see below). i'm curious how others have assembled them, keeping them square and with the desired width. presumably using some sorta jig
i tried using a bench with back and marks on the side to maintain the width and found that when i flipped it over to do the back brace, it wasn't square.
i'll need to make quite a few and would like a simple and quick approach
I never understood why model railroad benchwork books advocated using cross braces. Wastes so much space under the table, and makes for a more complicated build.
Just build another open grid table top on the inside of the legs about 33% up from the floor. A storage shelf, if you will.
The vertical legs will be supported in 4 directions in 2 differetn spots along their length. They wont be able to rack. A plywood table top and a plywood shelf will be as sturdy as any other construction method.
Your end braces that are horizontal at the mid-point are half of what you need. eliminate the proposed cross braces and place two more horizontal braces along each side. Then place a plywood "shelf" on the 4 horizontal braces.
For more storage and even more strength, build two shelves.
I would use 2x2, 2x3, or 2x4 legs. 2x4s sometimes are the cheapest cost. The 2x provides a proper surface to screw into. I use 1 x for the outside braces, and more 2x for the grids. 2x ends hold screws well...enough.
The table top and each shelf should be at least 1/2 inch plywood.
(If you use 2x for legs, 2 of the horizonatl braces will have to go on the inside of 4 legs and the other 2 braces on the outside to be able to set the plywood shelves onto. This will be obvious once you start.)
And drywall screws are fine. The key is making sure they are long enough. LOL.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI don't know how wide those leg assemblies or your bench are, but I would never have legs all the way out at the edge, it is a tripping hazard. I have always just built benchwork "in place"
I have always just built benchwork "in place"
once i got the jig sorted out, it didn't take much time to assemble the supports. i'll need many more, so figuring out how to do this right was important to me.
i don't want to spend a lot of time building the benchwork and would like to be able to cut and pre-assemble as much as possible in the garage where the tools are.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I don't know how wide those leg assemblies or your bench are, but I would never have legs all the way out at the edge, it is a tripping hazard.
I have always just built benchwork "in place" and have never managed to design a layout I was happy with on same sized "domino" modules. I have and will make removeable sections where needed.
I tried for years to design a satisfactory "modular" layout - I gave up, back to the old way. In fact on my way to the basement now to wire some more lights and clear some more space for the first section of bench work. First somewhat free weekend in a month.
the corrected temporary bench jig. clamps hold blocks to align legs as well as back of bench. there's a line marked on the bench on bottom right.
braces are on opposite sides of legs. each leg is on solid pine and one scrap plywood strip with screw thru the plywood. legs will be screwed into inside of bench
Greg: Two things.
1) Benchwork Square: For this, I go to a Big Box home supply store, and buy two precut hardboard panels, one 24" by 24" and one 24" by 48". These are cut square at the mill, and can be used as benchwork squares just fine.
2) Benchwork Plan:
For the X-Brace in red (rear), I would use 1/2" electrical EMT instead of wood. This hammers flat and drill easily enough. Use five 1/4" bolts with ny-lock nuts in the locations shown in purple. Only hammer it flat where the 1/4" bolts go.
X-Braces made from EMT are much better.
I would eliminate the opposite X-Brace in the front. This should not be needed if the benchwork will not be moved and makes access to the underneath much easier.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Yes, construction screws area different steel than drywall screws, but for these purposes either is fine.
I'm not sure I even understand the problem? There is no reliable way to make the legs and braces square (and keep them that way) before the table is applied? If that is what I am reading?
I would never make legs out of plywood strips........... surely not 1/2" plywood.
There is so much wrong with the drawing shown, I don't even know where to start?
Even the best plywood has marginal strength along the edges to build the L legs with screws. 1/2" plywood is not thick enough for any kind of reliable end grain joint with a screw.
Bowing those cross braces around each other is a terrible idea regarding proper adjustement to get the whole thing square.
How square it really needs to be is another question? What is really needed is a level top and "reasonably" perpendicular legs - we are not building the space shuttle here?
And the 1/4" plywood top - NEVER in my world.
after some adjustments to my jig and realizing that there's some springyness to the support, i was able to quickly build 4 supports that all had the required width. not certain about their squareness, but they seem adequate. i think the cross bracing allows them to take a trapzoidal shape, but should be square once they are attached to the bench.
Neal's suggestion/drawing made me think a bit more about the construction shown in the diagram. in my case, the cross braced legs are across the width of the bench. in the drawing, i wonder why there isn't similar cross bracing instead of a single board
Most of my layout's support structure was done using a carpenter's square and a lot of 2"x4"s, 4"x4"s and various other 2"-by sizes, amazingly left-over after building my house, most of it put together with suitable wood screws.There is no diagonal bracing, simply 2"x4" or 4"x4" uprights, joined together front-to-rear with more 2"x4"s top and near the bottom, and at the front and rear, top and again near the bottom, with more 2"x4"s. The rear ones are also attached with wood screws to the wall studs....none of this is going anywhere unless someone has a bulldozer that will fit down the basement steps.I then made the tabletops to support the roadbed (mostly cut-out 3/4" plywood, on risers). All were open grid, made with clear 1"x4" pine fot the layout's main level, while the partial upper level used a combination of 1"x4" and 1"x2" clear pine .The partial upper level is screw-attached to the wall studs, but also supported by welded-together steel angle iron, lag-bolted to the wall studs. It's sturdy enough that I was able lay atop it to paint the back-side of the rails on the deepest portion, which is about 38" from the wall to the fascia....talk about stuff you wouldn't want to see on a train layout.
Other than the peninsula, shown in the photos above, the under-layout area is about 8" above the floor, with shelving for storage of all sorts of stuff - tools, materials, outdoor furniture, kids' toys, and model train stuff, too...most of it hidden behind sliding- or lift-off panels.
Wayne
richhotrain gregc richhotrain greg, are you planning to move these modules from time to time or, once assembled, with the modules remain in place to form a permanent layout? permanent, but imagine having to shift the layout to access plumbing/electrical in the ceiling. Oh boy,that is something that I worry about since a portion of my basement layout is directly below the kitchen sink. Rich
gregc richhotrain greg, are you planning to move these modules from time to time or, once assembled, with the modules remain in place to form a permanent layout? permanent, but imagine having to shift the layout to access plumbing/electrical in the ceiling.
richhotrain greg, are you planning to move these modules from time to time or, once assembled, with the modules remain in place to form a permanent layout?
permanent, but imagine having to shift the layout to access plumbing/electrical in the ceiling.
Oh boy,that is something that I worry about since a portion of my basement layout is directly below the kitchen sink.
Rich
In my old house, my benchwork went right over the input water pipe. The pipe from the city water pipe to my house was rusting and had to be replaced. The city was responsible for the pipe going into the house but I had to remove a section of the layout so they could put the new pipe through the basement wall. I knew I would be moving in a few years and so I never replaced that section. That was the end of my last layout.
gregc Llenroc fan If you have a framing square and some clamps, you should be able to square them up, insert screws or bolts and then remove the clamps. Am I not understanding what is going wrong? my framing square is too small i was hoping to have a jig, i had tried a benchtop where i put the sides in, make sure they line up with marks on either side, screw in the one brace, flip it over, line it up and screw in the 2nd brace. but i'm doing something wrong and curious what that is
Llenroc fan If you have a framing square and some clamps, you should be able to square them up, insert screws or bolts and then remove the clamps. Am I not understanding what is going wrong?
my framing square is too small
i was hoping to have a jig, i had tried a benchtop where i put the sides in, make sure they line up with marks on either side, screw in the one brace, flip it over, line it up and screw in the 2nd brace.
but i'm doing something wrong and curious what that is
Alton Junction
Llenroc fanIf you have a framing square and some clamps, you should be able to square them up, insert screws or bolts and then remove the clamps. Am I not understanding what is going wrong?
If you have a framing square and some clamps, you should be able to square them up, insert screws or bolts and then remove the clamps. Am I not understanding what is going wrong?
richhotraingreg, are you planning to move these modules from time to time or, once assembled, with the modules remain in place to form a permanent layout?
permanent, but imagine having to shift the layout to access plumbing/electrical in the ceiling. for a 30' by 32" pennisula. may be different for free standing shelves along walls. looking for lightweight structure supporting foam.
interested in quick simple assembly techniques
I'm stating the obvious but in carpentry, triangles provide stability while squares and rectangles do not. For your top I would put temporary angle braces on the underside of the grid to hold it square until the plywood is attached to the top. To stabilize the legs you need either angle or cross braces both lengthwise and width wise. The first photo in Rich's post shows angle braces in the corners that will stabilize the legs.
If you want a lot of legs quick and simple, what about simply buying legs, like these "adlis" legs from Ikea? http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/adils-leg-white-90217972/
$5 gets you a steel leg complete with mounting hardware and an adjustable foot for leveling on an uneven surface. Screw them to the underside of your benchtop and you're done. With the price of lumber these days I don't think you'd be saving any money by building your own legs, and certainly not saving time
greg, are you planning to move these modules from time to time or, once assembled, with the modules remain in place to form a permanent layout?
^ That's why I suggested the metal brackets. It will guide, or even automatically align your connection to form near perfect 90 degree corners. They're designed for decks or floor joists
i'm asking about preassembling a support composed of 2 legs and 2 cross pieces. they will need longitudinal cross pieces or gussets when attached to the bench. i need 4+ to get started
i'm guessing that you can use a level to make sure the legs are straight before attaching the cross pieces if already attached to the benchwork
i'm curious about making a jig, even if something temporary on the wall of a garage for rapidly assembling
so far i've used some scrap wood that was headed for the fireplace. i've ripped some solid and plywood panels to make L-shaped legs and an using slats from oak skids ripped down for cross pieces
I'm going to second the post for 2X2 legs. I also used Simpson bracing components to create a specific moment in the frame corners that eliminates the need for angled bracing. Basically the bracket base wraps the post and a sleave extends along the horizontal member to prevent the frame from wobbling. Before I set up trains on the bench, it supported over 1000 lbs of construction material and equipment. Sometimes I feel the 2x4 benches get a little overbuilt in a manner that makes storing stuff beneath difficult. It's worth mentioning this since a lot of people have space constraints. It's really the table that needs to be durable snd stiff so that it doesn't bend under its own weight
nealknows I'm not a fan of gluing the sections of wood together and using nails. I would suggest using drywall screws so if need be, you can take them apart.
I'm not a fan of gluing the sections of wood together and using nails. I would suggest using drywall screws so if need be, you can take them apart.
davidmurray Neal: wood working screws are superior in strength to drywall screws.
Neal: wood working screws are superior in strength to drywall screws.
I built my current layout in modular fashion using drywall screws, and I screwed the modules together with drywall screws. I build my layouts with 2x4s, and my cross braces are positioned differently than in greg's drawing. Here is a photo of one module installed next to my partially demolished prior layout.
This next photo shows a series of these modules with some of the cross braces yet to be installed and before I screwed the modules together.
nealknows I would suggest using drywall screws so if need be, you can take them apart.
Neal: wood working screws are superior in strength to drywall screws. You can get them with Philips heads, but being Canadian, I prefer Robertson screws. Robertson uses a square tip driver, and are harder to find in USA.
Greg,
I've built many frames similar to what you're trying to do. While I'm going with your diagram, and if I'm reading your statement correctly, it seems the legs are not square.
I took your diagram, and added in black marker some supports to keep the legs square. I use 1"x2" pieces of wood and attach them to the frame and each leg. A level is my friend and once you add these, it should help, unless you have other issues.
If your frames are not square, I make one frame with all the cuts and then make cuts from those pieces using a mitre saw (chop saw) so every piece is the same. No jig is needed. Just make all of your cuts first, then assemble.
If I had to change anything in your construction method, I make the legs out of 2"x2" wood (I get them at Home Depot in 8' lengths). Also, I gather based on you using wing nuts you want to disassemble these sections? Next, I'm not a fan of gluing the sections of wood together and using nails. I would suggest using drywall screws so if need be, you can take them apart. Last, my cross bracing is every 12" for added support because plywood can warp, and, you paint both sides, which I highly recommend..
I've built more than a half dozen layouts using my method including a 23'x23' in the shape of an "E" for a friend. Sturdy as can be, and we had someone lay on it (he weighed more than 250 lbs)
If you need pics of my construction, let me know and I'll post more..
Neal