My new layout is going to be in my basement. My current plan was to have it attached to the wall but then reading some other posts about seasonal expansion etc, I was wondering if that would just add to the issue because not only would my benchwork expand and contract, but the possibility of the walls doing the same? Would I be better off to make it standalone or am I overthinking it?
Overthinking it. Attach to the wall and carry on. Very slight gaps at some track joints to absorb expansion contraction differences between benchwork and rails is all that is needed.
Mike
Thank you...I was hoping that would be the answer!
In my experience, seaonal changes really don't affect the benchwork. It can affect the roadbed however. I used upsom board roadbed on a prior railroad and had a hard time with it expanding and contracting (found out later I should have painted it to seal it), causing gaps and buckling at track joint. That is a lot of why I now use Kato Unitrack.
Prior to constructing my layout, I had the great opportunity of obtaining several planks of used 3/4" furniture-grade birch plywood, which I ripped down to 1"x 4" dimentional lumber. Over the years, these were garage-stored at two different locations, in the process of becoming the mainstay of my benchwork for two large layouts. To this day, no warps, no twists, no errors!
Last I looked, the cost of the 4x8 sheet of 7 ply birch plywood was the same - board-for-board, with premium stick lumber. Not sure about this now-a-days.
I also found that 7 ply 3/4" pine has similar qualities, but lacks some of the rigidity, but works fine for spans up to 6 feet.
Jim
dtaborMy new layout is going to be in my basement.
Part of the answer might be what kind of basement you have.
I have a finished basement, completely heated and cooled with the rest of the house. The temperature might vary two or three degrees from summer to winter or day to night. The humidity varies along with the rest of the house. I've never had any issues of expansion or contraction there.
York1 John
I use oak veneer plywood for my benchwork. Very dimensionally stable with no warping.
A 3/4X4X8 sheet ripped into 3" boards is substantially cheaper than the big box stores' 1X4 pretzelwood dimensional lumber.
The only thing I do differently with the plywood over the dimensional lumber is using cleats at all corners, since plywood edge grain does not hold screws well.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
At least for all the benchwork I have ever built, I still use the same idea as the NMRA HO scale module construction diagram: 1x4 framework (Yes, I do get particular when I get it at the lumber yard. I actually inspect the lumber even if it isn't for railroad.) with 2x2 legs. (Yes 2x2s are more of a pain then the 1x4s for straightness.) The tops are a bit of a different story. Most of them have a plywood top. (When I built most of the benchwork, I had access to quite a bit of plywood on the ranch where I grew up.) I did purchase a 1/2 sheet (2' x 8') for one section layout on my old that I still use on the new one but with different trackwork. The two main sections for my current layout are old hollow core closet doors. They are a pain for running wiring but they were cheap. (freebies, so I can't complain too much.)
As for roadbed, I use the good old cork roadbed nailed to the benchwork. Fairly easy to change if need be and it is easily obtained. As I am in a low humidity area, I haven't noticed much shifting of trackwork or benchwork. One section of the layout is probably around 30 years old as it was my first module in a now-defunct train club when I was in grade school and the only thing I've had to replace is some river bank. (Window screening for a lath.)
Been using 1x4 clear pine for module framing with 1x3 cross members. If you expect humitidy variations, some say it's a good idea to seal the wood with a sealer.
If in basement, run dehumifier and maintain environmental conditions to limit issues with expansion and contraction.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The basement is not finished at this point. The train room portion will be finished and insulated and have a dedicated dehumidifier for any moisture issues, however, there is no heat source down there aside from any radiant heat from the furnace running.
dtabor however, there is no heat source down there aside from any radiant heat from the furnace running.
That's pretty much my situation, although I did run a heat duct that points over the work bench.
I haven't had any expansion or contraction issues, as of yet, track was laid in 2010, Atlas flex, soldered connections, bench work fastened to the walls.
Temps stay in the 50's and 60's. Years ago, before my railroad, I made the mistake of opening up a couple of the basement windows, in the laudry area, when it was hot and humid outside. Bad move, I had condensation all over.
Mike.
My You Tube
Use beaded foam, no expantion or contraction once fully cured, even tested the stuff myself to be sure. When they talk about shrink on foam they are talking straight from the factory which can be what builders get.
I would love to have a finished basement. The builder more than 36 years ago never sealed the poured foundation. They were supposed to spray the tar like sealer but only did a thin band around ground level. Living on a giant sand bar in the north Atlantic I could never get the dampness out. Before you say Drylok or epoxy I already have 4 coats of Drylok and 3 layers of epoxy on the floor. A two gallon dehumidifier I was emptying three times a day for years. All the houses built by the builder around me all have the same issue. The metal tie bars that run through the foundation walls are rotting away and I end up drilling them deeply as I can and inject a cement like silicone into the holes. It's like living in a steel hulled boat.
Pete.
Once I had finished our house to a habitable state, I used the basement as a work shop, to make kitchen cupboards and other needed interior niceties.
Once those tasks had been dealt with, I studded all of the basement's exterior walls, then added insulation and a vapour barrier, then drywalled over it.
I was about to make it into a layout room, but a couple "suggestions" from SWMBO indicated that she preferred that the laundry room be in the basement, rather that the original ground-floor option. That wouldn't require a great deal of space, and didn't take long to build. I was about to continue with a layout room, when it was suggested that the kids could probably use a rec-room for when their friends visited, so I took care of that one, too....leaving me with an oddly-shaped room of about 560sq.ft....
The area in grey was to represent a partial upper level, which was added only a few years ago.
The laundry room and rec-room are heated electrically (as are the entire above-ground areas of the house) along with a small workshop, also in the basement. The layout room is not heated, as it only drops a few degrees during the winter, due to being well insulated.
The layout is attached to the walls, with mostly 2"x4"s used for supporting the main level of the layout, and under-layout storage of not only trains stuff, but tools, household goods, materials etc., etc.
The layout is atop 1"x4" open grid, of varying depths, with most of the track on cut-out 3/4" plywood roadbed, supported by 1"x2" risers of varying heights. The partial upper level is also on open grid, but using a combination of 1"x4" and 1"x2", all of it covered with 5/8" t&g plywood. That part of the layout is also fastened to the wall studs, but is also supported by welded-together steel angle irons, lag-bolted to the wall studs - it was solid enough to support me while I layed atop it to paint the backside of the rails on the upper level at the far end of this aisle...
This photo shows some of the welded brackets which support the partial upper level...
This one, at a corner where the aisles meet, is a compound one, with supports in two directions...
All of the track is soldered together, other than that at the five larger bridges, which were meant to be removeable for both maintenance and to facilitate adding scenery round them...there are two not yet sceniced, but they are at least operational.These are the two not yet sceniced...
...while this one...
...was done fairly recently...
...and now would be very difficult to remove.
These two were done quite some time ago, and have stood-up well to lots of on-layout cameras, usually brought along by friends...
My most recent large project, not especially model railroad-related (even though it was done partially in my layout room) was building another desk for my youngest daughter. I did the final set-up work at the corner of the two aisles shown in the first picture in this post, with one segment in the aisle at the corner of Port Maitland and the other portion in the Lowbanks aisle. I didn't have enough room to take a photo, but got these after it was finished...
I also did the dark-coloured desk, too, but that was several years ago....it's mainly for her work as an artist, hence the lift-up top in the centre...
Both of these desks can be disassembled into three components, as neither will fit through even wide doors in one piece.
Wayne
dtabor The basement is not finished at this point. The train room portion will be finished and insulated and have a dedicated dehumidifier for any moisture issues, however, there is no heat source down there aside from any radiant heat from the furnace running.
As long as you have a nice dry basement and run a dehumidifier, a basement is one of the most stable enviroments you can build a model railroad in. The ground temperature actually keeps it more stable than the rest of your house.
Sheldon
Has lumber costs dropped? I've not checked lately. Anyway, I use a modified L-girder style a former shop teacher suggested. He recommended running 1x3's across the top every 2'. This way I can wires and such through the foam without worry about going through the wood.
kasskaboose Has lumber costs dropped? I've not checked lately. Anyway, I use a modified L-girder style a former shop teacher suggested. He recommended running 1x3's across the top every 2'. This way I can wires and such through the foam without worry about going through the wood.
Lumber is still up there, prices keep going up and down, but always higher than pre-pandemic.
I used L girder years ago with hard shell scenery. My new layout with be simple open gid in places, and platform with plywood and homasote in others.
No foam here, I need the benchwork to support me.
My take on L girder after 50 years at this, it is for people who plan as they go or who expect to make changes. I know exactly what I want to build and can do it with less lumber by other methods.
But it is a good system, no question. But I have never gotten my head around the foam thing.
What are these "seasonal changes" I keep reading about?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 What are these "seasonal changes" I keep reading about? -Kevin
I have never had that problem because I don't build model train layouts is crappy environments. The last layout had its own 25 x 40 room with heat and a/c.
The new layout is in a 40 x 30 L shaped fully below grade dry basement that is pretty much 68-70 degrees all year and the dehumidifiers keep it at 35%-40% all the time.
But others insist on building these things in damp, unheated, uncooled spaces with wide temperature swings?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But others insist on building these things in damp, unheated, uncooled spaces with wide temperature swings?
Unfortunately, for some of us we are not blessed with perfect areas for building our layouts. Growing up the shop area I had was all that was available and a good deal of the framework I had was scrounged and sometimes not the best quality either.
RioGrande5761) For a minute there, seeing your benchwork took me back to my last layout. Many, many moons ago. 1" x 4" yellow pine (crossmembers, braces and legs too) in gridwork fashion with risers. Best benchwork ever!
You could park a tank on those tables. Mine was 13' x 21' x 48" table height, center pit, free standing along the walls. I still lament to this day having to dismantle it. I hardly got the benchwork done before we sold the house.
I highly recommend this type over any other such as L-girder, or foam. Though with todays shyster price gouging on just about everything including wood, building wood based layouts may be prohibitive.
PMR
PM Railfan RioGrande5761) For a minute there, seeing your benchwork took me back to my last layout. Many, many moons ago. 1" x 4" yellow pine (crossmembers, braces and legs too) in gridwork fashion with risers. Best benchwork ever! You could park a tank on those tables. Mine was 13' x 21' x 48" table height, center pit, free standing along the walls. I still lament to this day having to dismantle it. I hardly got the benchwork done before we sold the house. I highly recommend this type over any other such as L-girder, or foam. Though with todays shyster price gouging on just about everything including wood, building wood based layouts may be prohibitive. PMR
And the other choice is?
Sheldon) I dunno. Ive been pondering that. Got any ideas yourself? Ive got atleast a decade to go before i can even think of a layout. Think of what these dunderheads will want for the price of wood then!
Douglas
PM Railfan Sheldon) I dunno. Ive been pondering that. Got any ideas yourself? Ive got atleast a decade to go before i can even think of a layout. Think of what these dunderheads will want for the price of wood then! Douglas
When my industry stops buying it for awhile, the price will come down. Yes, I work in construction. The pandemic was a real problem for them, and now fuel costs. The price of everything is linked to the price of #2 fuel oil. My father worked in trucking mamagement his whole life, and was quick to remind people that EVERYTHING you touch has traveled on a truck, and possibly a train or ship.
Don't assume every business is taking advantage of you, it is a bad perspective from which to live your life. Businesses that make reasonable profits are there with products when you need them. Do you want someone telling you to take a pay cut or that you are worth less?
I have been self employed most of my life, I walk away from people who want to negotiate my rates. I'm booked until fall........
The businesses are not causing the inflation - the government spending (giving away) money it does not have is causing the inflation.
Well said Sheldon!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
That is supply and demand. Goverment has cost me big time with their giveaways of money to people who didn't need it.
mobilman44 Well said Sheldon!
I second that.
It's not only transportation affected by fuel costs. Just think of manufacturing. Even the cost of recycling like snowflakes are always pushing. It takes more energy to recycle plastic into something useful than it takes to produce it new. Engineered lumber is not as cost effective as once thought and PVC and plastic lumber from recycled materials is just as expensive if not more than real lumber.