the march NMRA magazine describes operation on the North Delaware RR club layout. the RR was designed with a double track mainline, but closes off one mainline track to do TT&TO ops which the article say doesn't make sense on a 2 track mainline.
this seems obvious after reading it and i'm surprised i haven't noticed this before.
i'm sure this is obvious to many. perhaps to some, they designed a single track RR with sidings and found TT&TO operations to just work. again, i think explaining the relatioinships between variations in ops and layout design would be helpful.
the NMRA article makes it clear that the RR wasn't designed with TT&TO in mind and why they did what they did to support it. i believe it's probably more educational to see examples of layout design that hinder certain types of ops rather than show layouts designed for specific ops.
in other words discuss features (e.g. 2 track mainline) that hinder a certain type of ops as well as enhance it
it's always been a mystery why Tony Koester rebuilt his layout because he wanted to do TT&TO. now i'm starting to see why.
the article also made a point about having passenger train service which i believe helps make TT&TO more challenging, entertaining (a la Ellison) and realistic
i wonder why more isn't written about operation,
there's a lot to explain
assume there are variations of TT&TO
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Single or double track simply depends on what you like. It a matter of personal (or group) preferences, nothing more.
More isn't written about ops because it doesn't generate that much interest. Joe Fugate talks about this periodically over on the online magazine he produces. Operations articles fall near the bottom of the interest stack. Too bad, because personally one of my favorite MR articles of all time is "The Brakeman on the Yellow Extra" by Bruce Chubb, way back in the 1970's or early 80's. It triggered my interest in operations.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
gregc the march NMRA magazine describes operation on the North Delaware RR club layout. the RR was designed with a double track mainline, but closes off one mainline track to do TT&TO ops which the article say doesn't make sense on a 2 track mainline.
TT&TO works fine, and was used in real life on double track - it's just that without siding meets between trains of different superiorities you don't have any of the "interesting" aspects of TT&TO.
gregc the article also made a point about having passenger train service which i believe helps make TT&TO more challenging, entertaining (a la Ellison) and realistic
Yes and no. There's nothing special about passenger trains exactly with TT&TO.
The whole essence of TT&TO is that inferior trains must give way and clear the times of any superior trains on the timetable. That doesn't necessarily have to include passenger trains, but passenger trains will usually be designated as First Class trains, with freights being classed as Third and Fourth class. (They don't have to be, and there's no rule for this per se, but this is common.) Extra trains have no class and are inferior to any regularly scheduled trains.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
A double track main line that adhered to "current of traffic" direction AND had an automatic block signal system would usually modify their rulebook accordingly to reflect this and thus TT&TO operation was safer and less mentally challenging. But still not a walk in the park. I think Andy Sperandeo wrote about the differences in his old operator's column in MR and very likely Jerry Dziedzic has too.
TT&TO has two learning curves, in my opinion. One is the entire issue of "vocabulary" over the radio and when dictating/copying train orders, clearance cards, train sheets and registers and other paperwork. The other is how to actually and "safely" run trains according to the dictates of the rulebook and your train orders. The vocabulary issue is there regardless of track plan, although if you have double track main and ABS perhaps you dictate and copy fewer orders so it is slower to learn, because so much less needs to be said to the crews.
I cannot speak for all but I think most people regard the fun, if there is fun, in TT&TO as NOT being the paperwork and vocabulary but in actually following the rulebook to the letter and still getting your trains over the line.
If you "learn" TT&TO on a double track layout with ABS however, you quickly see how little you have learned about its challenges and nuances when you operate on a single track main, particularly a busy single track main like Tony Koester's NKP. This is true for dispatchers, operators and train crews. You get the full immersion - swimming in the deep end of the pool - with single track. But that full immersion is exactly what some guys seek to avoid!
Dave Nelson
Hope this doesn't come across as condesending, but I assume there are newbies out there that don't know that TT and TO stand for Time Tables and Train Orders respectively.
The short of it is that a scheduled train on the time table is supposed to be at a certain station at a certain time, and if switching how long it is supposed to be there. The schedule will tell that train when and where it is supposed to meet other trains and what position to take at said meet. Other non-scheduled traffic is supposed to have the main line cleared for them at that time.
Train orders are on top of the schedule that accounts for variations due to a train being late, or broken down, etc. They can also be used for other trains (extras) telling them when they can move on the main, when they can occupy the main when switching etc.
Texas Zephyr Hope this doesn't come across as condesending, but I assume there are newbies out there that don't know that TT and TO stand for Time Tables and Train Orders respectively.
Texas Zephyr, not condescending at all. Thank you.
As Mark and Dave have said, a lot of people are not intersted in prototypical opps at all. Really serious prototype opps is a niche in this hobby still.
Others are happy to "simplify" and "simulate" prototype opps in ways that keep it more relaxed, less (or vertually no) paper work, and allow it to be more fun with a softer learning curve.
So as you are finding, you may have to dig a little to find those with published opinions on some of this.
I admit, I like operation but don't need to it be totally proto correct down to the last piece of paper.
Fun, interesting with some challenge, any more than that is work, I do enough of that at work.
Personally, I think a layout has to be VERY BIG, or trains have to be very short, to make single track TT&TO operation not become just a lot of trains sitting and waiting for some other train. I like long trains......
I have ZERO interest in operating a single track layout with only one or two train lengths between sidings - that's why I picked double track.....
Sheldon
Rich
Alton Junction
dknelsonBut that full immersion is exactly what some guys seek to avoid!
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs Mark and Dave have said, a lot of people are not intersted in prototypical opps at all. Really serious prototype opps is a niche in this hobby still.
gregci wonder why more isn't written about operation, there's a lot to explain
i wonder how many model RRers have any real experience with operations. i doubt it's surprising that a modeler might be overwelmed seeing a mature RR being operated and walk away with no desire to do operations.
and it might be difficult for a newbie to find a RR being operated more simply before being exposed to more sophisticated ops.
in lieu of these experiences i think more well written ops articles would be helpful. such an article wouldn't simply be TT&TO but TT&TO ops to different degrees and on different layouts so the reader is exposed at different levels such as 2 track mainlines, with priority passenger/freight trains, with different sets of rules or types of paper work, if any
doesn't it make sense that modelers might be reluctant to try something they haven't read much about
gregci wonder why more isn't written about operation, there's a lot to explain assume there are variations of TT&TO
Join the OpSig, they talk almost exclusively about operation.
Buy the OP Sig Operation Compendium. It has just about every variation of operations you can want.
gregcthe march NMRA magazine describes operation on the North Delaware RR club layout. the RR was designed with a double track mainline, but closes off one mainline track to do TT&TO ops which the article say doesn't make sense on a 2 track mainline.
Generally railroads operated 2 main tracks as "double track", or rule 251 operation (current of traffic). Double track operation was the most common multiple main track type operation up until the 1950's or 1960's when it was eclipsed by CTC. For example many of the RDG main tracks were rule 251.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
PruittMore isn't written about ops because it doesn't generate that much interest. Joe Fugate talks about this periodically over on the online magazine he produces.
Exactly. Pretty much any time I have brought up an idea for an operations story, he has pretty much done everything to dissuade the idea, short of saying "go away"
Texas ZephyrThe schedule will tell that train when and where it is supposed to meet other trains and what position to take at said meet.
Not exactly. The schedule just tells when trains may depart stations and other trains have to operate clearing the times of any trains that are superior. That doesn't necessarily tell a train where it will meet an inferior train. The schedule doesn't tell the train whether to clear or hold the main per se. That is in the rules and the special instructions.
Texas ZephyrThey can also be used for other trains (extras) telling them when they can move on the main, when they can occupy the main when switching etc.
Train orders give inferior trains right over superior trains, authorize trains in addition to the schedule and then direct the movement of extras with regard to each other.
They really don't have anything to do with telling them when a train can switch.
gregc i doubt it's surprising that a modeler might be overwelmed seeing a mature RR being operated and walk away with no desire to do operations.
That has not been my experience. Most of the people who walk away just don't want anything that organized or they have a bad experience with the people, not the operations.
gregcsuch an article wouldn't simply be TT&TO but TT&TO ops to different degrees and on different layouts so the reader is exposed at different levels such as 2 track mainlines, with priority passenger/freight trains, with different sets of rules or types of paper work, if any
What do you mean by "TT&TO" ops to different degrees?
Part of the problem is that many people see the different operating methods as a sequence of methods, first you do this, then you notch it up to this, then you notch it up to this and at the end your end up with whatever you think is the most complicated. I know that's how Fugate views it.
Unfortunately that's not really how it works. It's not one long serial arc of successive methods, it's several independent parallel methods that are mutually exclusive, not sequential.
I think a lot of the confusion is people who don't know about operations are asking for the single thread story, when it doesn't exist.
I do think that many times there is not enough focus on the concepts and too much focus on specific rules. Actually regardless of what operating method you choose, no matter what era you are modeling there are a handful of problems that all railroads have to solve. All the different methods are are different solutions to those same problems. The biggest thing that affects the evolution of operating methods is communication. The arc of progress in communications leads the progress in operating methods.
dehusman gregc i doubt it's surprising that a modeler might be overwelmed seeing a mature RR being operated and walk away with no desire to do operations. That has not been my experience. Most of the people who walk away just don't want anything that organized or they have a bad experience with the people, not the operations. gregc such an article wouldn't simply be TT&TO but TT&TO ops to different degrees and on different layouts so the reader is exposed at different levels such as 2 track mainlines, with priority passenger/freight trains, with different sets of rules or types of paper work, if any What do you mean by "TT&TO" ops to different degrees? Part of the problem is that many people see the different operating methods as a sequence of methods, first you do this, then you notch it up to this, then you notch it up to this and at the end your end up with whatever you think is the most complicated. I know that's how Fugate views it. Unfortunately that's not really how it works. It's not one long serial arc of successive methods, it's several independent parallel methods that are mutually exclusive, not sequential. I think a lot of the confusion is people who don't know about operations are asking for the single thread story, when it doesn't exist. I do think that many times there is not enough focus on the concepts and too much focus on specific rules. Actually regardless of what operating method you choose, no matter what era you are modeling there are a handful of problems that all railroads have to solve. All the different methods are are different solutions to those same problems. The biggest thing that affects the evolution of operating methods is communication. The arc of progress in communications leads the progress in operating methods.
gregc such an article wouldn't simply be TT&TO but TT&TO ops to different degrees and on different layouts so the reader is exposed at different levels such as 2 track mainlines, with priority passenger/freight trains, with different sets of rules or types of paper work, if any
Well said. Too many people these days don't want to take the time to learn anything that cannot be defined in advance with sound bite.
Railroad operations, railroad signaling, railroad safety, are not that kind of topic.
And then, scaling this info to work reasonably well on a model layout.........
Either you dive in and start learning, in for a penny, in for a pound, or you leave it to others.
cv_acrTT&TO works fine, and was used in real life on double track - it's just that without siding meets between trains of different superiorities you don't have any of the "interesting" aspects of TT&TO.
dehusmanWhat do you mean by "TT&TO" ops to different degrees?
my take is prototypical TT&TO is defined by a set of rules and paperwork. but by degree i mean on some layouts, some of the rules may have less relavence, such as on 2 track mains as described by cv_acr or if there are no superior trains to contend with and there may not be any paper work.
dehusman Texas Zephyr The schedule will tell that train when and where it is supposed to meet other trains and what position to take at said meet.
Texas Zephyr The schedule will tell that train when and where it is supposed to meet other trains and what position to take at said meet.
Ironically, TT & TO was the first type of Ops I learned and it is the one I am most familiar with… We have run this type of operating scheme in our local Ops group for the last 20 years. I tore out my last layout in part from my experience with TT & TO and my inability to make it work on the old layout. My current layout was specifically designed to host Ops with tons of hidden staging and a linear design to facilitate point to point operation.
I pretty much agree with everything Dave has said on the subject in terms of how to think about TT & TO. As for newcomers being overwhelmed, we have two new guys in the group this year who both came to one session and were very excited about Ops when they left. They hadn’t mastered it but they came back and are now part of the regular crew. We have had others over the years who decided Ops wasn’t for them…
To me the cool part of TT & TO is the decisions that the train crew has to make about when to go, and what to do that are not spelled out by the orders and rules per se, As Dave says there are options. We run just a few trains on the schedule and everything else is run as an extra. Watching how crews deal with those options is a large part of the fun. I tend to think of it as “chess with trains”. Every session is different because of the “crew factor” and how the dispatcher writes the orders.
I agree with dave about the OPsig – there is lots of material out there on TT & TO. Dave, Joe was interested in beginning or introductory Ops articles – I wrote one for him back in the day. Maybe he is not so interested now.
The other nice thing about Ops in general is that it creates a group of train guys to hang out with and do other activities besides operating – conventions, tours etc… - you can also get to be good friends over the years. The last session lasted three hours and then we had lunch and talked for another three hours…
Too much from me,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
gregc dehusman Texas Zephyr The schedule will tell that train when and where it is supposed to meet other trains and what position to take at said meet.
Dave's statement is correct.
"Wrong" is a little too strong, but Texas Zephyr is not correct...
The schedule only lists the EARLIEST time a train can leave a station. Basically no more than that. Trains can be up to 12 HOURS late and still be governed by their schedule authority...
Trains use the schedule times and the superiority rules (and any other train orders that may further modify the situation) to determine how and where to meet.
Back when the late Andy Sperandeo was around MR ran a lot more operations stuff. Even then, though, MR surveys indicated about 10% interest in operations. That, by the way, means about 10% of people who bothered to return the postcard put a checkmark in that box.Operators aren't the most numerous part of the hobby, but we sure are persistant.Also, I've dispatched double track under TT&TO. Very little to do.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
gregcthis is yet another example of a disagreement between two ops guys that i believe makes it hard for someone with less experience to understand ops
It's just like anything else on the internet, ask for information on something and you will get different responses, some opinion, some fact. Ask somebody about why their train derails or DCC or electrical problems or understanding transistors. You will get dozens of responses, some right, some wrong, some misunderstanding the problem. Just like any of those situations one has to weigh the answers and pick the one they want to follow.
dehusmanIt's just like anything else on the internet, ask for information on something and you will get different responses, some opinion, some fact. Ask somebody about why their train derails or DCC or electrical problems or understanding transistors. You will get dozens of responses, some right, some wrong, some misunderstanding the problem. Just like any of those situations one has to weigh the answers and pick the one they want to follow.
Texas ZephyrI am always happy for someone to correcting stuff I post.
While having the timetable spell out all the meets on a prototype railroad might not be correct, it might be how a particular model railroad is set up to operate. People using sequential operations often do that. All the train movements are choreographed in advance.
There is always the factor that how the prototype chooses to do things and how the modeler chooses to do things are not necessarily the same.
I operated on a layout that used CTC and they had every last move, the exact route, which switches when and were preplanned. Unfortunately, I was dispatcher and since I had worked in a prototype dispatch office, when problem came up, I just started working around it. Caused a bit of an uproar because I went off script.
dehusmanThere is always the factor that how the prototype chooses to do things and how the modeler chooses to do things are not necessarily the same. I operated on a layout that used CTC and they had every last move, the exact route, which switches when and were preplanned. Unfortunately, I was dispatcher and since I had worked in a prototype dispatch office, when problem came up, I just started working around it. Caused a bit of an uproar because I went off script.
On one layout I was dispatching, the thru coal extra was ready but the reefer block in the same direction wasn't. So I gave the clearence for the scheduled train to the coal and ran the reefer block as an extra about 20 minutes later.
Layout owner (the late Bill Kirchmeyer) loved it, but it confused the heck out of some of the crews.Schedule, not consist, determines a train, folks.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayOn one layout I was dispatching, the thru coal extra was ready but the reefer block in the same direction wasn't. So I gave the clearence for the scheduled train to the coal and ran the reefer block as an extra about 20 minutes later. Layout owner (the late Bill Kirchmeyer) loved it, but it confused the heck out of some of the crews.
Layout owner (the late Bill Kirchmeyer) loved it, but it confused the heck out of some of the crews.
Bayfield Transfer RailwaySo I gave the clearence for the scheduled train to the coal and ran the reefer block as an extra about 20 minutes later.
isn't that the TO part of TT&TO?
gregc Bayfield Transfer Railway So I gave the clearence for the scheduled train to the coal and ran the reefer block as an extra about 20 minutes later.
Bayfield Transfer Railway
So I gave the clearence for the scheduled train to the coal and ran the reefer block as an extra about 20 minutes later.
Not to stir the pot but my model railroading has always been for relaxment from the everyday pressures of working. I went down to the local club twice and that did it for me. That made me an active lone wolf. To each his own, kinda like being a rivet counter. Close enough works good for me. More power to all the TT-TO guys and rivet counters out there. I’ve never wanted to keep any kind of order to my hobby, just relax and enjoy . . . going on 71 years of happy lone wolf model railroading.
I do enjoy following all the posts on the Forum, even those not in my niche.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Turned 84 in July, aging is definitely not for wimps.
RR_MelNot to stir the pot but my model railroading has always been for relaxment from the everyday pressures of working
I think I agree. I suppose that TT-TO can be fun for those who enjoy it, but it sounds a little stressful to me.
And I have a couple questions.
On a larger model railroad which might require 10 to 30 people to get trains over the line, where does one find that many interested parties? And with all the required knowledge?
And if someone drives over an hour to get there, would they be happy to run one train over a three hour period while waiting for all that paperwork to transpire?
And a final comment. There was an article in MR many years ago where two individuals sat across from each doing all the necessary prototypical paperwork. The "layout" was about the size of a card table. I think the trackplan was basically a loop, and maybe there was one siding. Evidently the two individuals derived great pleasure from "operating" this way. That's not for me.
The only reason I remember this is because I thought at the time that there was something wrong with them. My opinion has not changed.
maxman and RR_Mel,
I get your points. Just understand operations with a group does not need to be this rigid "work like" task, although some do actually enjoy this more complex, real life, approach to it.
My new layout will support a crew of about 12 people - OR - it will operate just fine with just me.
Guess it depends on where you live, but in this area there is no problem finding a dozen interested people. As for "required knowledge", each operation oriented layout is different. If you are interested, you will learn it quick enough.
From where I sit right now, I could make 20 phone calls, or send out 20 emails, and have 10 people here next week. OR, I could schedule visits to 10 or 20 basement sized layouts all within a 25 minute drive. We have lots of modelers around here, and lots of medium to large layouts.
A bunch of complex paperwork is not "necessary", it is only one approach.
While I enjoy some level of the social side of the hobby, it is not a requirement for me. A big reason why the new layout is designed to allow operating sessions, or display running, or one person operations.
Mel, I gave up the rivet counting thing years ago too. I'm sure you have noticed I take a little heat for my views on passenger car length and mixing "generic" rolling stock with "high end" rolling stock from some on this fourm.
And, when it comes to operation, I do prefer the CTC approach for mainline operations.
maxman On a larger model railroad which might require 10 to 30 people to get trains over the line, where does one find that many interested parties? And with all the required knowledge?
First not all the people have to be proficient, yard crews, yardmasters, crew callers do not.
Second, its not THAT hard. You are using a timetable and train orders. Written instructions. The crews just have to be able to follow the instructions. Only the dispatcher and train order opertors have to highly qualified on how the system works. This type of operation was literally run by people with a 6th grade education.
Who says you only get one train? Who says you are spending the whole session waiting on paperwork?
If the dispatcher, operator and the layout owner know what they are doing there isn't a big delay on paperwork.
Yes I have been on layouts were I have only operated 1 1/2 trains in 3 hours, but that wasn't because of TT&TO, that was because the railroad had a low volume of trains (which is more of a function of too many operators).
I operate TT&TO, have a crew of 7, that includes 3 road crews (plus the dispatcher) and I generally run 1-3 passenger trains, 4-8 freight trains and 1-2 locals (depending on shift) in a 3 hour session. Road crews pretty much are running most of the session with maybe a 10-15 minute break between trains.
In the last full TT&TO session I ran prior to the pandemic, I wrote 12 trains orders. With 6 freight trains and 2 locals that's a total of 9 running orders and 3 meet orders.
And the problem is??
A reverse rivet counter.