Has anyone attempted to build an undergound station like New York Penn Station or 30th street station in Philidelphia? I'm planning a layout for the far future thats inspired by the Northeast corridor and i tentatively intend for the main station to be situated below street level just like the 2 examples i listed above. I also am thinking about running live catenary through them, since all of my Amtrak Eletrics as can draw power from the catenary. Has anyone attempted such a feat?
I've built subway stations that are actually below ground level, with the surface level above them. I used Hydrocal castings for the platforms and tiled walls. I made the molds for these with liquid latex and a couple of Evergreen sheets. The Hydrocal looks more realistic than trying to paint the Evergreen sheets, and with a bit of practice I could actually get fairly tight curves in the wall tiles.
Do you plan to make the station open and visible, or covered and only visible from the side on an edge?
I would worry about maintaining power below the surface using overhead wires. My subways and trolleys use plain two-rail power. I planned all along to have a CMX car for keeping the underground track clean. I also waited a long time before finishing the scenic covers over the subway tracks, to make sure the track was bulletproof.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hopefully the Lion will see this and comment. Much of the look and feel of 'subway' construction would apply to either the post-DC era of NYP or to many of the tracks at GCT...
Working catenary has been done, although I have not personally seen the type used at Penn Station or the North River Tunnels actually modeled directly. A number of European companies have developed functional overhead-wire systems; there have been several companies over the years that have offered scale components for the Gibbs & Hill PRR electrification 'infrastructure' in at least O and HO over the years; I think there have been articles and discussions in the magazines over the years on best practices -- or at least showing good examples -- over the years.
I have no idea what Penn Station under Madison Square Garden looks like so I have no idea whether it would be interesting or not to model. I think it would be awesome to build the above ground station before it was leveled to make room for MSG. With what is now possible with 3-D printers, I think it is now feasible to do that or at least a compressed version of it. The real challenge would be modeling the surrounding buildings and streets.
MisterBeasley I've built subway stations that are actually below ground level, with the surface level above them. I used Hydrocal castings for the platforms and tiled walls. I made the molds for these with liquid latex and a couple of Evergreen sheets. The Hydrocal looks more realistic than trying to paint the Evergreen sheets, and with a bit of practice I could actually get fairly tight curves in the wall tiles. Do you plan to make the station open and visible, or covered and only visible from the side on an edge? I would worry about maintaining power below the surface using overhead wires. My subways and trolleys use plain two-rail power. I planned all along to have a CMX car for keeping the underground track clean. I also waited a long time before finishing the scenic covers over the subway tracks, to make sure the track was bulletproof.
I do intend to have power to the rails powered as well just in case as a fallback measure (last thing anyone wants is an ACS64 or Acela stalled in some hard to reach place), as well as for my fleet of non functioning catenary locomotives *cough* Atlas ALP45DP *cough*.
However i intend to where possible, have live catenary be the primary source of power.
Also i haven't decided how one would "view" the station either. One idea i have rn is building the layout/station in such a way whereas to one can look in from the "side" and see the platforms, trains etc.
I worked into and out of Penn Station on Amtrak trains from 1979 to 2012.
If one was to build a representation of Penn Station "at track level", and then build the actual "station" above it, there would be no trains "too see". Everything would all be hidden by the slabs of flooring above.
You couldn't even approximate the approach tracks from the East side -- they're all underground. There is the open space west of the Post Office building (shows you how old I am, I guess it's "the new station" now), but there's no platform tracks there, just some storage tracks, leads, and crossovers.
If you're modeling Amtrak trains and want to do a complex station at which you can actually SEE trains, try New Haven instead. Or perhaps Boston's South Station before they built that awful parking lot (or whatever it is) above the tracks.
The moment of daylight that tells you "hey, start getting your area cleaned up, you're getting off" is gone now too. Hudson Yards buried it.
OldEngineman I worked into and out of Penn Station on Amtrak trains from 1979 to 2012. If one was to build a representation of Penn Station "at track level", and then build the actual "station" above it, there would be no trains "too see". Everything would all be hidden by the slabs of flooring above. You couldn't even approximate the approach tracks from the East side -- they're all underground. There is the open space west of the Post Office building (shows you how old I am, I guess it's "the new station" now), but there's no platform tracks there, just some storage tracks, leads, and crossovers. If you're modeling Amtrak trains and want to do a complex station at which you can actually SEE trains, try New Haven instead. Or perhaps Boston's South Station before they built that awful parking lot (or whatever it is) above the tracks.
i was thinking about Phillys 30th street station as an "inspiration" as well.
I think Bill Kachel's giant PRR/NH HO layout (called "Cosmopolitan Division") manages the compromises in executing something like NY Penn or 30th Street well. The above ground building is a necessarily compressed rendition of NY Penn; the track level is cutaway at the edge so one can see the station activity below street level. So although street level is NY Penn, the track level seems more like 30th Street Philadelphia, as if one were looking into the lower level from along the Schuykill River or expressway. The track approaches also remind me more of 30th Street Philadelphia, being out in the open with some curvature leading into the station. There are multiple videos of his layout on Youtube. In particular, if you search Youtube for Bill Kachel Model Railroad Open House 2021, the Part 1 video covers the station about 40 seconds in. Other videos might include it too. The entire layout covers New Haven to Pittsburgh, with catenary New Haven to Harrisburg.
I have been to the underground part of Penn Station a couple of times. It was, well, totally unremarkable. The grandeur that was old-time urban stations is sadly gone. It's just platforms and stairs leading up, with awkward pathways to elevators for the mobility impaired.
I didn't want to stay there any longer than necessary. It was just another functional urban building with zero character. On the way in from Boston, I waited a few minutes for my girlfriend's train from DC, kissed her hello and we left for the street. On the way back, we kissed goodbye, boarded our respective trains and departed. That was it. The kisses weren't enough to add any romance to Penn Station.
It's hard to use the word "romance" and Penn Station in the same sentence. No matter what they do to open up the cave like feeling they still need to deal with the homeless and the assortment of characters that seem to inhabit the stations bowels. Some improvements seem like bandaids. A number of years ago they rebuilt the entrance to the 1, 2, 3 7th ave subway. Unfortunately, they did little to address the chronic leaks from above. Pretty soon the new tile facade was covered in the same stalagtites as the original. Then a nearby sewage pipe burst above the LIRR ticket area. Same old ......
A few years ago the last time I passed through, the station lacked character but it was clean and seemed well-maintained. The vagrancy problems we see frequently didn't seem to be there. Perhaps they can control and limit those issues, or maybe it's just that the weather was nice and didn't drive people inside. Or maybe, the politics of NYC hadn't deteriorated so much yet.
Due to Covid, I have not been through Penn Station since early 2020. Cold weather will certainly bring the homeless into the station. Before that time I would be through there at least once a week for shows, etc. Every once in a while perhaps the powers that be were trying to keep the homeless out. Having said that there were times when we walked the corridor from the 7th ave subway near the NJ Transit corridor where you had to walk in the center to avoid the homeless sprawled out on the floor along the walls. Turn the corner into the main concourse and the walls are lined with police and National Guardsman armed to the teeth. Strange juxtaposition. Don't get me wrong. The homeless issue needs to be addressed in a humane fashion. Not just in NYC but around the country and the world. London has a major homeless issue but they seem to keep them out of the railway stations and the Underground.
Here are some photos of my subway stations. First, the Saint Anne Street station, viewed from above before I built the scenic cover. This is a simple one-track station with the only track right on the edge, making maintenance from the accessible side possible.
This is the station from the side with the cover in place. this picture is so old I took it with a film camera. A coworker from New York who saw the picture on my computer screen said, "I recognize the line but not that station. Where is it?" He was surprised to hear it was a model.
This is a top down view of Penny Lane.
From the side. I cheated a bit, providing a "lower mezannine" platform for the PCC trolleys, whose doors are much lower.
nycmodelDon't get me wrong. The homeless issue needs to be addressed in a humane fashion. Not just in NYC but around the country and the world.
Soilent Green?
I wouldn't call 30th Street Station an underground station. There are tracks on an upper level and a lower level. The tracks on the "lower" level are actually ground level for the original terrain. The station above them was built on sloping land that was leveled out to eliminate hills on Market Street and Chestnut Street.
My layout will have a design like that eventually. Walthers Union Station will have track run past it at street level with platforms in the rear. The front side will have a parking lot with street and track going under it. Platforms will also be there with a walkway to the station. The station and parking lot will appear to be supported like the street above the Schuylkill Expressway in Philadelphia.
Rick
Chris Bear built an HO scale model for the Hagley museum. It was featured in issue 15 of the Keystone modeler.https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:eb6bd20c-7937-3ff4-bb2f-d764b542e45d
I hope the link works. If you want to model anything PRR, join the historical society. The TKM is well worth the money.
Pete.
MisterBeasley Here are some photos of my subway stations. First, the Saint Anne Street station, viewed from above before I built the scenic cover. This is a simple one-track station with the only track right on the edge, making maintenance from the accessible side possible. This is the station from the side with the cover in place. this picture is so old I took it with a film camera. A coworker from New York who saw the picture on my computer screen said, "I recognize the line but not that station. Where is it?" He was surprised to hear it was a model. This is a top down view of Penny Lane. From the side. I cheated a bit, providing a "lower mezannine" platform for the PCC trolleys, whose doors are much lower.
Any idea on how to install catenary under the stations ceiling?
I'll bet Ed has some Gibbs & Hill drawings of the tunnel or platform catenary details...