how complicated should a layout be for operations?
maybe the questions should be: how much can a crew do in a reasonable amount of time? i'm trying to understand what a typical crew/operator can do during an op session.
i believe i have a nice size space, 12x30', LaVale layout, shelves along the long walls and a peninsula down the middle. there could be a nice length of track from one corner, down and back along the peninsula to the end of a shelf along the opposite wall with stations and freight destinations along the way.
however, another option is two separate branches, one to the peninsula and another to the opposite shelf (see Sperandeo's San Jacinto Dist at right)
i'm trying to imagine an op session with multiple operator/crews. but if there's a single length of track it seems that just a single crew could service all the locations along the RR. could a single crew complete that during an op session? would there be a need for more than one crew?
i'm thinking that separate branches would need separate crews.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Since I am a lone wolf operator with a lengthy mainline and a short line which branches off the main, I don't see it as a question of need. To me it's a question of whether there is enough to keep two crews busy for the op session. If your branches are long enough they would need seperate trains and have enough switching to keep two crews busy, than that would be the way to go.
it is not just the track plan but the aisle space that needs to be thought of in terms of operators - in that sense that it would be possible for a track plan to fit in a room but need more operators than there is physical room for in the aisles. There is also the issue of finding the right balance between yardmasters creating outgoing trains and breaking down arriving trains, and actual train crews.
Finding someone who really likes being a yardmaster isn't always easy. If there is a staging yard in addition to a "modeled" yard, then if it is an "active" staging yard where cars are taken off the layout and new ones put on during a session, you now might have -- I should say, need -- two yardmasters.
Also, if just one operator is in charge of putting together the trains in a yard, then unless the layout owner has pre-staged some trains, that means train crews are likely to be sitting around for a while waiting for a train. So how much pre-work are you prepared to do to make crews busy.
My experience is that assuming the layout owner acts like a grand magus and is dispatcher, trouble shooter, and traveling utility man, and you have a dedicated yardmaster, or two, don't over do it on inviting train crews. Better to have people be too busy than too bored. See how much one crew (engineer and conductor/brakeman) can do at a session and then decide whether you need to invite more, or whether a one person crew is OK. A two person crew is almost always a good idea for a new layout for operations, and over time as they learn the layout it might not need to be two person.
Dave Nelson
The number of operators would also be determined by the industries on the railroad. My gravel plant needs a dedicated crew to load and switch cars to the holding yard for pickup by a local. The local will drop the picked up cars at the scale house yard where another dedicated crew is working. The weighed cars are then picked up by another local to the marshaling yard to be distributed into mainline trains. That's five crews for one industry.
The locals in both directions will bring empties and either pickup loads or continue to other industries and pickup on the way back and vice versa.
The dedicated switch crews at the scale and gravel plant would be too busy to help with locals break and make their trains.
This is set in the 1940s era. The industries and yards use steam engines that need occasional service from water stand pipes and coaled by a line side conveyor during crew changes at the gravel plant.
The locals use either displaced mainline steam or first gen RS or GP units.
Pete.
Interesting question, Greg.
I think I've designed a layout that, to operate fully, will require more operators than live in the area(!). But I've worked out some alternatives.
How complex the layout is isn't the only driver for number of operators. For example, on my layout (which is basically a mainline with the division's main yard in the center and two branchlines) I also have defined some operating rules that an impact the number of operators required.
For example, one rule is that all trains will undergo a motive power change at Casper (the division main yard). Between through freights and trains originating at the yard, there will be enough action to require a dedicated engine hostler to take locos to and from the engine facilities. If I suspend that rule, which I expect will be the case more often than not, the need for the hostler goes away.
I also have plans for seasonal trains, like the sugar beet harvest trains and the apple trains off a branch in the fall. If I don't have enough operators, we'll run an off-season session so those trains don't need to run.
Another consideration is what kind of operators you have from the available pool of candidates. If you have "hard core" operators in your area, they'll be more willing to step up to more intense sessions than more "casual" operators, and that can impact the number of operators you need significantly.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
dknelsonunless the layout owner has pre-staged some trains, that means train crews are likely to be sitting around for a while waiting for a train. So how much pre-work are you prepared to do to make crews busy.
i've assumed that at the beginning of a session
how long do you think it would take a crew to switch either Perris or Hemet?
225
My layout is a one-man operation, unless, of course, the grandkids drop by and want to run a train. The two who are interested are 6 and 8, while the older ones, well into their teens, have lost interest.If my more-senior model railroader friends drop by, it's usually for a test run of a new loco or one which needs repairs, plus beverages and a bull-session.
Most of that is currently not happening, for obvious reasons.
Wayne
gregc dknelson unless the layout owner has pre-staged some trains, that means train crews are likely to be sitting around for a while waiting for a train. So how much pre-work are you prepared to do to make crews busy. i've assumed that at the beginning of a session locals are ready to leave at the start of a session a train could be ready to leave for staging a train would be ready to be received in the yard from staging that train would be broken down, constructing locals for the next session cars from the previous session would be ready to be put on the next train for staging presumably a session would complete when the yard switching is complete and the locals return how long do you think it would take a crew to switch either Perris or Hemet? 225
dknelson unless the layout owner has pre-staged some trains, that means train crews are likely to be sitting around for a while waiting for a train. So how much pre-work are you prepared to do to make crews busy.
I have no experience in multiple crew ops. I'm a lone wolf.
But, yes, breaking it into tasks would be the way that I would think about it.
Check out Thomas Klimoski's videos. He takes it though the ops of a two man crew. A two man crew for his (one) train. Engineer and Conductor.
They follow (modern era) RR switiching protocols. A bit too many and tedious for my tastes, but the series of videos show how long it takes to switch out something.
If you want to "super detail" every switching move to prototype fidelity.
One of the videos shows two operators involved in the same train. The conductor radioing to the the Engineer, calling out the moves he wants the train to make, and the other operator performing the moves on the throttle, like the Engineer. Maybe a different way to think about two-man ops.
https://www.thomasklimoski.com/videos
(BTW, his layout is very similar to the trackplan you show)
- Douglas
I follow two "Operators" on YouTube. Both have great switching layouts. The first is Robert Todd's, Des Moines Transfer Railway https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7kLhsPjMp8-C1CgFHeSP-A. The second is Rick's SoCal Scale Models https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6HlxJcaxDe2AyqGNqAP1Uw/featured
Both follow prototype switching with slow operation, time for switches to be thrown, crossing guarded, etc. Robert usually just switches one industry per video, and it takes 15 to 30 minutes for just that one switching operation. Rick usually switches one or two industies per video with three to four cars. His videos average around 25 to 30 minutes each.
Based on their experiences, I'd allow at least 20 minutes per industry for a typical operating session.
The great thing about both Robert's and Rick's videos is that they tell a story along with the switching. Rick's conductor Torres is always getting into trouble with the girls at the Taco stand.
Ray
Greg,
I have been involved in lots of different operating schemes on lots of operations centered layouts.
One thing you do not make completely clear is how much "mainline" operation might be included?
Many people "assume" that operations means primarily switch cars in yards and setouts/pickups to industries by a "local".
And they have been many great industrial switching layouts built for doing that, and only that.
Based on the size layout you are describing, sounds like a typical two man crew with a train order/swtich list might take 20-40 minutes to switch the area you described on the layout you pictured.
Dave made lots of great points about space for people and activity, yard masters, etc.
On my new layout I will have very few industries along the mainline, and those few will mostly be serviced from sidings that allow local crews to keep the mainline clear large percentages of the time.
Most industries will be located on a "belt line" of sorts, or industrial branch lines where locals can leave the yard and travel directly to the industries without traveling on the mainline at all. OR, they will travel on the mainline for very limited distances to effectively cross the mainline and enter a different industrial trackage area.
So my layout is designed to support 8-10 engineers.
Jobs include:
Dispatcher (possibly two of them)
Yardmaster
Two or three local crews consisting of two people each.
Four mainline engineers.
A a separate crew of two running various operations on the WESTERN MARYLAND section.
So that is 12-15 people for a full operating session that would be expected to last 2-3 hours.
It will consist of:
4-6 local runs to/from the three primary industrial areas and one or two "mainline locals" to service the seveal industries that are farther out along the mainline.
Continuous movement of mainline trains - some just run thru from staging and back into staging, others with just power changes, and others originating or terminating in the main yard.
Passenger trains, both marque trains and local/commuter trains.
Interchange trains originating/terminating at the main yard for connection with the B&O/C&O/WM.
Interchange and passenger connection runs to/from the WM section.
So some operations will be as simple as taking a train out of staging and taking it for a lap around the layout and back to staging.
Others will involve lots of switching and asking for permission to enter the main when necessary, etc.
All trains will be staged in advance, or created in the main yard as part of the session. That's why the layout is designed to store roughly 30 trains, depending on length/type.
All mainline movements will be CTC controlled by the dispatcher.
So the question is - are you only interested in local car switching type operations? OR, do you desire to simulate all/other aspects of railroad operations?
Another side benefit of a track plan like mine, trains can run with minimal attention (display running) on deticated loops on the main, while operators work the yard and industries.
One of the industrial areas is not shown on the track plan below, but will include street running in the area above the hidden yard labled "Oakland Yard".
Additionally, if space works out, I plan to build a completely isolated waterfront ISL - we will see.
I'm still putting up lights and ceiling in between a busy work schedule, but I hope to start some benchwork in a few weeks.
Sheldon
gregci've assumed that at the beginning of a session locals are ready to leave at the start of a session a train could be ready to leave for staging a train would be ready to be received in the yard from staging that train would be broken down, constructing locals for the next session cars from the previous session would be ready to be put on the next train for staging presumably a session would complete when the yard switching is complete and the locals return how long do you think it would take a crew to switch either Perris or Hemet? 225
As with everything, it depends on what you want the operation to be and how much you are compressing things.
Bare minimum, you could operate the whole operation with one crew. A mixed local would leave staging with a combine and a half dozen cars. They would stop at Perris, make a station stop and switch trailing point spurs, run to San Jacinto, make a station stop, then switch out cars for the Hemet branch, switch Hemet, come back to San Jacinto, turn the combine and engine if needed. They would assemble the train for the return, depart San Jacinto, make a sttion stop at Perris, switch trailing point switches and return to staging.
Or you could run a local that swithes Perris and drops cars at San Jacinto, then a switcher at San Jacinto switches San Jacinto and Hemet and builds an outbound local, which runs back to staging, stopping to do any work at Perris, and then you could add a passenger train that runs staging to San Jacinto and return to Staging with stops at Perris.
Two different scenarios, both equally plausible, one takes one crew, one takes 3 crews. If you put a two man crew on option one, that gives you options for one, two or three people.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
gregcmaybe the questions should be: how much can a crew do in a reasonable amount of time? i'm trying to understand what a typical crew/operator can do during an op session.
On my layout a local over the road can handle setting out 6-8 cars and picking up 6-8 cars in about an hour and a half. A switcher that is handling only industry work in one switching area can handle 18-20 cars in and 18-20 cars out in a 3 hour session.
YMMV depending on how complicated the switching is and what other stuff you have added. More momentum and lower top speed = more time.
thanks
Dave N - hadn't considered aisle congestion. trying to imagine the flow of things on the layout, now need to consider the flow thru the aisles
Sheldon - thanks for the details. expecting things to be simpler but not exactly sure what you mean about mainline opertion? could you describe what you're doing differently on your new layout vs your older one(s)?
Dave H - thanks for answering my questions. was looking at your web page describing the W&N. could you explain what you did differently between your earlier and current layout?
gregc thanks Dave N - hadn't considered aisle congestion. trying to imagine the flow of things on the layout, now need to consider the flow thru the aisles Sheldon - thanks for the details. expecting things to be simpler but not exactly sure what you mean about mainline opertion? could you describe what you're doing differently on your new layout vs your older one(s)? Dave H - thanks for answering my questions. was looking at your web page describing the W&N. could you explain what you did differently between your earlier and current layout?
Mainline operations, well, I have always done it, just working to do it better now.
Some will say it is too boring, or, "what's the point?", you are just running in circles.
But the prototype gathers cars from industries in city A, brings them to a yard, makes them into trains going to cities B, C, and D. Then at those cities those trains are broken down into local trains to deliver the cars to their destinations.
Why would we only model the activity at each end and not the process (or at least part of it) to get them from the yard in city A to the yard in city B?
Mainline trains require a series of steps to get them out of the yard and over the road. And simulating the movement of multiple trains, in both directions, traveling over the mainline, keeping a schedule, getting out of the way of priority passenger trains (again remember I model the early 50's, passenger trains were still a thing) is just as challenging in my view as spotting and picking up cars to the local industries.
My operations will have a timetable and a fast clock for mainline trains.
So, I will only be simulating my little part of the mainline, but that is the fun of CTC, the dispatcher has to make choices when things don't go perfectly, just like real life. Engineers have to pay attention and safely control their train.
Here in the "crowded" east, railroads were busy in the era I model. Double track mainlines were fairly common, there were lots of trains.
Here in Havre de Grace, MD, in the early 50's, a train crossed the Susquehanna River on the PRR mainline every 14 minutes, nearly 24/7.
And nearly as many trains crossed the river on the nearby B&O mainline.
That's the kind of railroading I am interested in modeling, action, and plenty of it.
So the continuous double track mainline, with lots of hidden staged trains, can provide that action. Either with a team of operators, or as dedicated display loops. A train every 15 minutes, on a fast clock, means always a train or two, or three, on the 240' of visable double track mainline.
Mean while the other activities of the yard, industries and passenger terminal are conducted by other operators.
Hope that makes some sense?
gregcDave H - thanks for answering my questions. was looking at your web page describing the W&N. could you explain what you did differently between your earlier and current layout?
I have had 3 W&N themed layouts. The first was a 1950's era layout in a 12x24 room. I modeled only the northern half of the branch (about 30 miles). I became unhappy with it because it had a duckunder into the room and the staging representing Wilmington and the South end was hidden staging on a loop under the main level, making access and management difficult. It used yard engines at Birdsboro and Coatesville (north end and the middle/end of the visible layout) and 2 or 3 road crews.
I decided to backdate to 1900, to model the whole 60 mile branch, eliminate the hidden staging and duckunder, and to not run trains from staging to staging. I ended up having to put the northern staging on a moveable staging yard in the hallway outside in the layout room. I had two yard engines at Wilmington and one at Coatesville plus 2 or 3 road crews. I was able to model a short branch to St Peters. With the layout change I started handlaying the track. I kept the old 1950's Coatesville, renamed it Birdsboro until I could relay it with handlaid track. However, before I could do that, We built a new house and moved.
My requirement was that the new house had about 600 sq ft for a layout. I ended up with a 24x24 room. The new layout added the Delaware River Extension switching area, wxpanded Wilmington, Coatesville and Birdsboro. All the visible track was handlaid. I also widened the benchwork from a nominal 18" deep with 36" aisles to 24" deep with 48" aisles. The staging was all visible and nominally accessible. I also added two helixes (technically three) to have a combination Rockland/Kentmere branch and the French Creek branch in as shallow "shadow box lower level switching areas. I also added a lower level staging area, representing Reading, for passenger trains.
The layout was built from Wilmington to Coatesville first and operated using the old moveable staging yard to represent the area north of Coatesville. Then after the 2019 OS Omaha operating weekend, I started building the northern half of the layout and had it in service for OS Omaha 2021.
I started with 2 industry jobs and a yard engine at Wilmington and one at Coatesville, with 2 road jobs. However things got too congested at Wilmington. I reconfigured the yard track assignments at Wilmington, and eliminated one industry job. That let the industry job switch out its own spot cars.
After the north end was built, that added a yard engine at Birdsboro and another road job, for a total of 2 jobs at Wilmington, one each at Coastesville and Birdsboro and 3 road crews that handle passenger trains, through freights and locals. If I have somebody available I can also use a TT&TO dispatcher.
Dave H, thanks for the history. but i was wondering about your industrial switching areas.
you mentioned reconfiguring Wilmington, am wondering if you changed others: expanded or made simpler?
I’m late to this discussion here are some thoughts:
As a practical matter the footprint of the layout in the space will limit how many people can comfortably fit. While your length is good, you might find that the width of your room might be a factor if you have a peninsula - depending on the width of the decks.
An example - the math on that might be: 2ft wide deck on both walls (4ft) 3 foot-wide peninsula (4 + 3 = 7) leaves two aisles at 30” (12 – 7 = 5 divided by 2 = 2.5) Obviously, you can finesse things but you can see where this is going. My space is 13 X 22 around the walls with a peninsula. I have 30” aisles and one 26” pinch point. While it works for us, it does feel tight.
The layout plan you showed could be run a variety of ways as Dave pointed out. As operators get familiar with the layout, they tend to get quicker at the jobs. It is also very hard to predict these things because operators will do switching moves that you hadn’t thought of when developing the original design.
I developed my Ops plan, in large part, before I built the layout based on experience operating on other layouts. I also thought quite a bit about the types of trains I wanted to run and then figured out how to support them in the track plan. Over the years the Ops plan has changed in various ways as I began to get data from Ops sessions and was able to see what was working and what wasn’t.
I broke it down into through trains, and locals. I built staging to support the through traffic and figured the routes for the locals as well as the support facilities for them in terms of yards, sidings etc….
We use TT& TO with a dispatcher. The comfort zone for the layout is 4-5 operators although we have fit as many as 8 in the space. We run 10 – 15 trains in a three hours session. Some run over the whole line with switching along the way, others are dedicated through freights that may interchange in the main yard, others are locals that go out to certain point and return to the yard. I have found that it is possible to have many more trains in the schedule than can run in the 3-hour window, given the number of operators that will fit in a room.
I would suggest that you go to some sessions in your area if you haven’t already, to get an idea of what type of Ops you like. If you are more of a mainline run type of operator, this will have an impact on the staging requirements of the layout as opposed to a more switching intensive approach.
Have fun,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
gregc but i was wondering about your industrial switching areas. you mentioned reconfiguring Wilmington, am wondering if you changed others: expanded or made simpler?
I reconfigured the track assignments, didn't make any track changes. Originally I had a job that worked the interchanges, and the inMaryland Ave, H&H and 6th Ave switching areas in Wilmington. A second industry job worked the DRE switching area the first half of the session and then ran the Kentmere local down the Kentmere branch the 2nd half of the session. Wilmington also had a yard engine that primarily did classification work.
Instead I went to one industry job that worked all the Wilmington industrial areas and then had one of the road crews work the Kentmere local. I reduced the cars I put at industry at Wilmington from 25-30 down to 20-24. I also reduced the workload on the yard job by having the through freights set out their B&O at Elsmere Jct instead of bringing it into Wilmington and having the yard jobs deliver it back to Elsmere Jct.
The changes were mostly "paper" and reassigning work.
The industry work at Birdsboro and Coatesville hasn't really changed. The road traffic there has though.
When I completed Birdsboro, I was able to operate Coatesville turns from Birdsboro to Coatesville and back (there is a grade in the middle of tht run that reduces train sizes.)
I have also experimented with several different through freight options. The "no blocking" option runs a shotgunned train out of Birdsboro and the train switches out cars for Coatesville at Coatesville, switches out and delivers the B&O's at Elsmere Jct and then terminates at Wilmington. The "blocked south" option has Birdsboro switch out and block Coatesvilles, B&O's and Wilmingtons and the south trains make straight set outs (vs. switching out unblocked cars). The last two options which I haven't pulled the trigger on yet is the Birdsboro "blocked north" and the branch "blocked north". The north cars are really 4 blocks into Birdsboro: Birdsboro proper, Reading (general freight north and west), Philadelphia (genreal freight east) and St Clairs (empty system coal cars). Right now all the north's are shotgunned into Birdsboro and all Birdsboro does is cut out the local Birdsboro. I could have them separate the Reading, Phillie and St Clair cars. Or I could have Wilmington and Coatesville separate all the north cars too. The blocked north plans could be combined with any of the other operating scenarios, but I haven't tried either bocked north plans yet.
The whole point of that long and boring description is there are lots of different ways you can operate your layout, which plan you select and how many cars you put to industry can affect how many people you need to support it.
I could cut back the industry work at Wilmington to only spotting 8-12 cars and then have the industry job run the Kentmere local the 2nd half of the session, eliminating one person. That would reduce the number of thru trains I needed to run to Wilmington, reducing the demand for road crews, further reducing the total number of operators.
I could dial up the fast clock from 3:1 to 4;1 and run a 12 hour session in 3 hrs. On the day shift the road crews would run passenger trains and locals and then on the night shift they would run freight and interchange trains. Lotsa options. Everything I descibed uses the exact same railroad. Don't need to add or subtract one inch of track. All the changes are "paper", what plan is driving the operations. All of them could be prototypical, just in different eras.