Got a stumper on my hands. I have a 5 passenger car consist by Rapido. Three of the cars work just fine, but the other two derail. I have tried to do my investigative work before posting, and here are my observations.
~ The locations of the derailments are sporadic but usually on curves.
~ I have eliminated track work as the problem because my other Rapido passenger car consists are fine as are all of my Walthers passenger car consists.
~My curves are all 32" inch radius or sometimes greater, but never less.
~ Each car has a Kadee #36 long centerset coupler on the front and a Kadee #5 on the rear.
~ The trip pins are all clipped so no snagging occurs.
~ As a test, I added 1/2 ounce of weight over each truck on the two derailing cars, but they still derailed.
~ I reversed the trucks but the two cars still derailed.
~ Speaking of trucks, on the underside of each truck (where the truck connects to the body of the car) there are two arrows that point toward the end of the car. I spun the trucks around, but derailments continue.
~ I compared the 36" Rapido metal wheels to the Intermountain 36" metal wheels. No differences.
~ Leaving only the 3 non-derailing Rapido cars behind the loco, I added a Walthers passenger car. No derailments.
~ I added the 4th Rapido car ( one of the two that derail) behind the 3 non-derailing Rapido cars and the Walthers passenger car. That 4th Rapido car still derailed.
~ I added another Walthers passenger car behind the consist described directly above, and that 4th Rapido car derailed.
I am at wits end. Who will be first to solve my problem?
Rich
Alton Junction
I would try swapping the trucks from a derailing car to an OK car to eliminate the trucks. See if the problem follows the trucks or the car. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Turned 84 in July, aging is definitely not for wimps.
RR_Mel I would try swapping the trucks from a derailing car to an OK car to eliminate the trucks. See if the problem follows the trucks or the car.
I would try swapping the trucks from a derailing car to an OK car to eliminate the trucks. See if the problem follows the trucks or the car.
Good idea. Will do, stay tuned.
Rich I have been working on these beast for years and out of thirteen two are still in the fix stage, but I am confident I will resolve the issues.
Check this out.
https://rapidotrains.com/warranty/product-support/super-continental-line-product-support-page
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Have you checked wheel gauge with a NMRA gauge? could be they are out of gauge (either too narrow or too wide).
worth testing to see if its part of the problem
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
Two more thoughts Rich, check the diaphragms for burrs. I found a few nubs that were causing problems.
I think it was Ed that actually changed out some trucks with the newer Rapido ones.
BATMAN Rich I have been working on these beast for years and out of thirteen two are still in the fix stage, but I am confident I will resolve the issues. Check this out. https://rapidotrains.com/warranty/product-support/super-continental-line-product-support-page
Those 5 cars are from the Super Continental Line.
I forgot to mention that I also have two other sets of Rapido Super Continental Line cars that run just fine on the layout.
Renegade1c Have you checked wheel gauge with a NMRA gauge? could be they are out of gauge (either too narrow or too wide). worth testing to see if its part of the problem
BATMAN Two more thoughts Rich, check the diaphragms for burrs. I found a few nubs that were causing problems. I think it was Ed that actually changed out some trucks with the newer Rapido ones.
You might want to check the trucks for warpage. I had a hopper that one of the trucks was so warped one wheel didn't even touch the rail. Another thing to check is wheels centered on the axles. Even if they are in gage, they could be to one side or the other. Also had a P2K car with metal wheels on a plastic axle that was bent and the wheels wobbled.
Just something to look at.
Pete.
Pete, thanks for those suggestions. I will add them to my checklist.
OK, I tried Mel's suggestion first of swapping the trucks from a non-derailing car to one of the two derailing cars, and here is what I got:
~ I ran the "good car", that is the 3rd car with the trucks from the "bad car", that is the 4th car. That 3rd car did not derail.
~ So, I added the 4th car to the consist with the trucks from the 3rd car. That 4th car did not derail.
~ So, I added the 5th car (the other "bad car") without changing the trucks. The front truck of the 5th car derailed.
~ I removed that bad 5th car and added a known good Rapido car from another consist. No derailments.
~ So, then, I swapped the front truck of the known good Rapido car from that other consist with the "bad" truck from that 5th car. No derailments.
Finally, I added back the known good Rapido car from the other consist and ran a 6-car consist, that is all five Rapido cars from the first consist along with the known good Rapido car from the other consist, keeping those swapped trucks swapped. No derailments.
So, now I have all six tested cars running without any derailments. I am pleased but baffled. How did this all work out so well?
By the way, does anyone know the significance of the arrows on the underside of the Rapido trucks? Does it make any difference which way the arrows face?
Those Super Continental Cars out of the box were horrific. I had to do some surgery near the trucks and coupler area to make them run on 24" radius, plus adding the #146 couplers (long shank) to them.
By the way, the new Horizon and Comet Cars run well, no issues and no need to change couplers!
Neal
nealknowsBy the way, the new Horizon and Comet Cars run well, no issues and no need to change couplers! Neal
Ya, my new Canadian Pacific cars are incredible and I will buy a bunch more as they come out.
Jason has talked about what he learned with the Super Continental line and how they were not up to snuff. Growing pains of an upstart train company, I am more than happy with the improvements. I have also made good progress getting the Super Continental Line ones running well, it has taught me a lot if nothing else.
nealknows Those Super Continental Cars out of the box were horrific. I had to do some surgery near the trucks and coupler area to make them run on 24" radius, plus adding the #146 couplers (long shank) to them.
BATMAN Jason has talked about what he learned with the Super Continental line and how they were not up to snuff. Growing pains of an upstart train company, I am more than happy with the improvements. I have also made good progress getting the Super Continental Line ones running well, it has taught me a lot if nothing else.
Hopefully, whatever I did solved the problem. Incidentally, as I mentioned in my initial post, my curves are 32" minimum, so well above the minium recommended by Rapido.
The problematic truck(s) are on the Chicago & Eastern Illinois passenger cars, and these were all but impossible to find when Rapido produced them. I need them to represent the C&EI at Dearborn Station on my layout.
I like to come away from a problem that seems to have resolved with at least a smattering of predictive validity in the 'solution'...something that makes for a general rule and go-to that I keep in my list of 'let's sees' when I encounter similar problems of a type.
As some of you may know about me and derailments on curves, my first suspicion is always my own tracks, specifically that I somehow allow an outer rail to dip a bit. Most of my stuff rolls along there just fine, but a new set or engine will derail. I have literally ripped up an entire curve, cleaned up the roadbed, and relayed it with a bit more super. I have always won those battles. My point is, though, are these cars falling outward or inward. Is the last car derailing due to weight/rolling resistance/tightish curves? Or is the offending truck putting its lead axle outward? This tells a lot.
Also, once a truck is removed, if you can place if on a clean countertop, center some weight on it, just a couple of ounces to stabilize it, or a finger, can you extract a single sheet of paper from under all flanges with about the same pull? Maybe one of those flanges isn't riding on the same plane and it causes derailments.
selector I like to come away from a problem that seems to have resolved with at least a smattering of predictive validity in the 'solution'...something that makes for a general rule and go-to that I keep in my list of 'let's sees' when I encounter similar problems of a type. As some of you may know about me and derailments on curves, my first suspicion is always my own tracks, specifically that I somehow allow an outer rail to dip a bit. Most of my stuff rolls along there just fine, but a new set or engine will derail. I have literally ripped up an entire curve, cleaned up the roadbed, and relayed it with a bit more super. I have always won those battles. My point is, though, are these cars falling outward or inward. Is the last car derailing due to weight/rolling resistance/tightish curves? Or is the offending truck putting its lead axle outward? This tells a lot. Also, once a truck is removed, if you can place if on a clean countertop, center some weight on it, just a couple of ounces to stabilize it, or a finger, can you extract a single sheet of paper from under all flanges with about the same pull? Maybe one of those flanges isn't riding on the same plane and it causes derailments.
I don't like problems that resolve themselves. Like my neighbor said . The oil stopped leaking on my mower. I said , it's probably not leaking because it's out of oil.
Pete
wrench567 I don't like problems that resolve themselves. Like my neighbor said . The oil stopped leaking on my mower. I said , it's probably not leaking because it's out of oil. Pete
My one explanation is that one particular truck was at fault and all of the swapping find the right frame to ride on without derailing the car.
selector As some of you may know about me and derailments on curves, my first suspicion is always my own tracks, specifically that I somehow allow an outer rail to dip a bit. Most of my stuff rolls along there just fine, but a new set or engine will derail. I have literally ripped up an entire curve, cleaned up the roadbed, and relayed it with a bit more super. I have always won those battles.
As some of you may know about me and derailments on curves, my first suspicion is always my own tracks, specifically that I somehow allow an outer rail to dip a bit. Most of my stuff rolls along there just fine, but a new set or engine will derail. I have literally ripped up an entire curve, cleaned up the roadbed, and relayed it with a bit more super. I have always won those battles.
And, yes, I too have ripped up supposedly good track work to fix that slight error in order to get that one problematic car or loco running without derailment. Sort of like the shepard who momentarily abandons his flock to find that one missing sheep.
The problem with my current issue though is that the derailments have not been occurring on a single stretch of track. The derailments are more widespread occurring on several stretches of track. And, even if the fault was with the track and I rip it all up to find and fix the flaw, what happens the next time around when a new car or loco experiences derailments?
Now that I have pretty much isolated the offending truck, if derailments persist, I will just have to replace the truck.
richhotrain ... what happens the next time around when a new car or loco experiences derailments? Now that I have pretty much isolated the offending truck, if derailments persist, I will just have to replace the truck. Rich
... what happens the next time around when a new car or loco experiences derailments?
Rich, I had the same dread in mind when I fiddled with each section of track that seemed not to want to play nice with whatever it was that was derailing. Fortunately, that reality never occured, not once. It seemed, thank the fates, that whatever I was doing was always an improvement, if just a smidge. I never seemed to undo something that had been working right.
I think you have figured it ou; the truck must be the problem, maybe also a bit of stringlining tension or something that is making the last couple of cars want to get jerked out of the guage a bit...not sure if that's what's at play here. Sometimes just swapping ends, or positions in the consist, can make a huge improvement. I learned that lesson with Spectrum heavyweight passenger cars and their horrible coupling system.
Rich, I am on a few Canadian MRR sites and this topic has come up with the Super Continental Line often. Some of the guys have bought the new and improved trucks from Rapido when all else has failed and that solved the problem.
As much as I love Rapido and the trucks are not an expensive item, it grates me to have to spend money for new trucks from the same company to have a fix, however, if I cannot get the last two offenders rolling right I will order the new trucks.
"One other thought about the effect of swapping trucks is to take a close look at the truck mounting boss and the riding surfaces. It is just possible a particular truck is a tighter fit on one underframe than on another (or conceivably too loose?) and performs inconsistently."
Be aware that 'best performance' will be with one truck laterally supported, and the other free to tilt laterally while supporting the end of the car at ride/coupler height.
Absent any equalization built into the trucks (or approximated by conical-end axle action) this implies that if you start to tip the car on straight track, both wheels of the 'lateral support' truck high side will start to come off the rail at the same point, with the other truck keeping all its wheels on the track until the angle of heel grows much larger...
This sounds eerily similar to the problem I was having with my Walthers Budd passenger cars which I wrote about in this thread:
Passenger truck recommendations - Model Railroader Magazine - Model Railroading, Model Trains, Reviews, Track Plans, and Forums
If you go to my last response, you'll see that what has worked for me was to go with the longer Walthers trucks that I believe were intended for the lightweight Pullman cars. I'm not sure why they worked better but I suspect the added length of these trucks was the main reason they work better. I don't know how that applies to your Rapido cars and whether the trucks are interchangeable with Walthers but if they are, you might give it a try.
I'm unfamiliar with the Rapido cars but I'm guessing there is a screw that holds the truck to the body. If that is the case, I would try adjusting the tightness of the screw. Maybe they are too tight. Maybe they are too loose. Compare them with the cars that aren't derailing to see if there is a difference.
BATMAN Rich, I am on a few Canadian MRR sites and this topic has come up with the Super Continental Line often. Some of the guys have bought the new and improved trucks from Rapido when all else has failed and that solved the problem. As much as I love Rapido and the trucks are not an expensive item, it grates me to have to spend money for new trucks from the same company to have a fix, however, if I cannot get the last two offenders rolling right I will order the new trucks.
Yes, that was my feelings about buying new Walthers trucks for my Walthers Budd passenger cars. Ed was generous enough to donate to me a few he had on hand but I had to order a few more to get all the trucks replaced. It had to be done and once I was able to determine that the longer trucks solved the problem, it made the pill a little easier to swallow.
richhotrain Renegade1c Have you checked wheel gauge with a NMRA gauge? could be they are out of gauge (either too narrow or too wide). worth testing to see if its part of the problem Ooh, I had not thought of that. Thanks for the suggestion. One thing that I did do but forgot to mention is that I pulled out my Kadee Truck Tuner to check the trucks but they were fine even without any reaming. When I first got the cars, I had used the truck tuner back then. Rich
Ooh, I had not thought of that. Thanks for the suggestion. One thing that I did do but forgot to mention is that I pulled out my Kadee Truck Tuner to check the trucks but they were fine even without any reaming. When I first got the cars, I had used the truck tuner back then.
It's probably a good idea to check the wheel gauge but I have to say that in all my years of checking wheels with the NMRA gauge, I've never once found any that were out of gauge. I'm wondering if that was a problem from decades past that has now been eliminated through better quality control.
John-NYBW I suspect the added length of these trucks was the main reason they work better. I don't know how that applies to your Rapido cars and whether the trucks are interchangeable with Walthers but if they are, you might give it a try.
This is from the Rapido product support page I posted earlier. I suspect the longer trucks would snag all the underneath detail and would be an issue. Note it says "some cars are equipped". Does this mean it was a crap shoot as to what trucks the car ended up with during manufacturing? Pfzir or Moderna.
Some cars are equipped with 41-N-11 trucks, also known as Inside Swinghanger trucks. These trucks have a longer wheelbase than the Outside Swinghanger trucks (type 41-BNO-11) that we also fit underneath our Super Continental Line Passenger Cars. Because of this, these trucks may need to have their ends snipped off in order to operate on curves between 22" and 28" radius. They will not operate on curves tighter than 22" radius without more major modifications to your car. It is best to test the car on your tightest curve, and cut off the ends if they bind on the underframe. Use a small pair of nippers or flush cutters, and snip off the ends at the grooves. You will need to remove the trucks from the cars before attempting this.
That's interesting. I thought 41-N-11 was a Walthers product number. I didn't realize it designates the prototype truck.
Overmod "One other thought about the effect of swapping trucks is to take a close look at the truck mounting boss and the riding surfaces. It is just possible a particular truck is a tighter fit on one underframe than on another (or conceivably too loose?) and performs inconsistently." Be aware that 'best performance' will be with one truck laterally supported, and the other free to tilt laterally while supporting the end of the car at ride/coupler height. Absent any equalization built into the trucks (or approximated by conical-end axle action) this implies that if you start to tip the car on straight track, both wheels of the 'lateral support' truck high side will start to come off the rail at the same point, with the other truck keeping all its wheels on the track until the angle of heel grows much larger...
I had never heard this solution before but it makes sense. Does it matter if the laterally supported truck is on front or the rear? I'm going to guess that it needs to be the same on all cars.