printed concrete blocks at ~15% scale
Close-up of bricks ~150% scale.
Exterem close-up handrail and loading dock: This is mor detail than can be scene withou mgnification.
100,000 bricks:
https://nscale4by8.github.io/nscale4x8/
ROBERT PETRICKBut the brick business is what it is, and the best way to address it is to eschew bricks altogether and go with flat walls painted dull dark matte red; which I have done and will continue to do. Way too early to give up now. Plenty of time to give up later.
I disagree. Even though the smallest relief feature I print is 0.4mm, I could buy a smaller nozzel to print smaller relief details. However, I can print recessed details like mortar joins to nearly microscopic sizes. The positioning accuracy for my print head is 0.001mm, and the spread of high quality plastic is predictable. I print bricks that are 1.8mm by 0.8mm with 0.1mm mortar joints. This produces bricks that are 10.8 scale inches by 4.8 scale inches with mortar joins that are 0.6 scale inches wide. That makes bricks about 50% too big, but mortar is just right. I could print bricks as small as 0.8mm by 0.4mm which is actally smller than a scale brick. The main reasons I print larger bricks are A) typical buildings already have 100,000 bricks that take a long time to print, and B) I get good layer adhesion for about 99% of bricks with larger bricks, but smaller bricks sometimes don't "stick" reliably to he underlying layer unless I print even SLOWER.
I can print parts that mechanically stick together without glue. I can achive consistent 2 micron part separations. The plastic practically sublimes together once assembled with those tolerances.
It has taken a long time (about two years) to dial in the settings just right. A ten degree change in temperature can interfere with these tolerances.
It seems that most hobbyists don't achive the print quality that I often if not usually achieve. Reference the printed structures I have already shown.
NorthsideChi I've never taken the time to calculate things in N scale with printer tolerances, but heres what I found I can do for window frames to print and bricks that have clarity Brick joints can be 0.10 to 0.15 mm. The bricks will need to be modeled longer because the "roll" in the tool path makes the vertical joints slightly larger than what is modeled. Because of that adaptation I'd make the bricks 1.5 times taller than what it is in real life. So in sketchup, I'd model a brick unit to be 12 inches long by 4 inches tall and then offset inward by 0.25 inches for the mortar. When stacked, the mortars become a half inch. Because of that, it appears you could get away with about 0.15 layer height, but a single layer will make horizontal joints less crisp where a double layer will have a more legible gap. 0.07 mm is a preset, so I suppose that will work too Window frames, I'd model at 3 inches real world. I've been using 1.75 to 2 inches HO scale.
I've never taken the time to calculate things in N scale with printer tolerances, but heres what I found I can do for window frames to print and bricks that have clarity
Brick joints can be 0.10 to 0.15 mm. The bricks will need to be modeled longer because the "roll" in the tool path makes the vertical joints slightly larger than what is modeled. Because of that adaptation I'd make the bricks 1.5 times taller than what it is in real life. So in sketchup, I'd model a brick unit to be 12 inches long by 4 inches tall and then offset inward by 0.25 inches for the mortar. When stacked, the mortars become a half inch. Because of that, it appears you could get away with about 0.15 layer height, but a single layer will make horizontal joints less crisp where a double layer will have a more legible gap. 0.07 mm is a preset, so I suppose that will work too
Window frames, I'd model at 3 inches real world. I've been using 1.75 to 2 inches HO scale.
Hey NorthsideChi -
Thanks, this is useful information.
The bricks I'm trying to print in N Scale are drawn (using AutoCAD Civil 3D) 10.5" by 3.5" with 3/4" mortar joints. That makes them a good 30% oversized, which I can live with. I printed them on the Qidi with 0.10mm layers. They came out looking like coarse woven canvas when printed vertically, and looking kinda like calico with a coarse irregular weave and a bunch of lumps scattered here and there when printed flat. They fared a little better on the Photon S, printed both flat and straight vertical, and also while suspended from dozens of supports at odd XY, XZ, and YZ angles. The joints are small, crisp and sharp, but very shallow and barely discernable unless viewed askance from a very close perspective. Some fiddling with exposure times might help, but what would really help would be if the slicing software (Chitubox) allowed some sort of adaptive exposures where the user can specifically set times for the very layers that form the face of the bricks (when printed flat, if course) which may be different from the standard layer exposure time.
At any rate, I will rework the brick courses for 12" by 4" bricks with 1" wide by 1/2" deep mortar joints and see how that goes. Not quite CMU or concrete block size, but getting close. Then I'll worry about handrails and mullions later.
Thanks, Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
PM Railfan Robert) no no no thats all wrong..... "I'm sorry to hear that you're happy to inform me I'm wrong." . . . that is totally 100% the opposite of what i was trying to do. Douglas
Robert) no no no thats all wrong.....
"I'm sorry to hear that you're happy to inform me I'm wrong."
. . . that is totally 100% the opposite of what i was trying to do.
Douglas
Hey Douglas -
I am so sorry that I misinterpreted your earlier comment, and I sincerely apologize for the snarky tone of my response.
Yes, there are 3D printers and techniques available these days to enable printing of N Scale buildings and structures. I have a Qidi filament printer and an Anycubic Photon S resin printer, and there is a wide range of N Scale stuff I can print. I have already printed several large-ish tanks and buildings with the Qidi and I'm satisfied with the results. I've also printed small little tiny details with the Photon S and had fair-to-middling results.
But . . . there is a hard limit at the bottom end of the print resolution envelope (particularly for filament printers) that pretty much hinders fine details to be accurately (or close to accurately) rendered. Namely bricks and mortar joints, handrails, and window mullions. The handrail and mullion issue can be solved by using store-bought details from Tichey or N-Scale Architect or other limitedly available sources. But the brick business is what it is, and the best way to address it is to eschew bricks altogether and go with flat walls painted dull dark matte red; which I have done and will continue to do. Way too early to give up now. Plenty of time to give up later.
Thanks, I hope you understand.
Robert
Ya see, when I read this....
"I also looked at the Qidi X-Max, which is the one I think I will go with. ..... We'll see how it goes."
I thought you hadnt....
"I've since taken steps to inform myself by buying a Qidi X-Max printer and have printed enough N-Scale structures to determine the limitations of the hardware and of the Cura-based Qidi Print slicer software."
yet. So naturally when i read ....
"Going from HO Scale to N Scale seems to cross a physical limitation of the resolution of commercially available hobby-use 3D printers."
it sounded to me like you were discouraged. And were hesitant to move forward with a purchase that might not yield you what you wanted.
In essence, and albeit sarcastically - my style of writing i guess, I was trying to let you know you could do what apparently now.... youve already done. Make sense?
So no....
"you're happy to inform me I'm wrong."
that is totally 100% the opposite of what i was trying to do. Preferably lets just print a cover plate for my previous post and paint 'congrats' on it now that your spitting plastic.
PM Railfan R. Petrick.... "Going from HO Scale to N Scale seems to cross a physical limitation of the resolution of commercially available hobby-use 3D printers." Um, Im happy to inform you that isnt correct.
R. Petrick....
Um, Im happy to inform you that isnt correct.
I'm sorry to hear that you're happy to inform me I'm wrong.
I've since taken steps to inform myself by buying a Qidi X-Max printer and have printed enough N-Scale structures to determine the limitations of the hardware and of the Cura-based Qidi Print slicer software.
I'll stand by the Prusa MK3S (kit assembled) and say after 7 miles of printed filament, and 7000 flawless hours of printing, it's been a remarkable machine with excellent support and service.
Um, Im happy to inform you that isnt correct. Rest assured your cheap Chinese knock off printers can do the job. Yeah, i was suprised too, believe me.
It does require upgrading the printer to a much better machine than out of the box. Once done, add in boxcar loads of time, and voila!
I dont think N scale is the barrier, more like Z scale, for an FDM type printer.
Also, while your in the neighborhood of selecting a printer, check out the option of a 'kit'. The kits were meant as upgrades for out of the box 3d printers but they sure do make great starters to begin with.
Sure youd have to piece the rest together but this way you end up with the better printer at the same price. Difference? Just a few more fishing trips on the 'bay' thingy, but worth the effort. This will be my direction next printer purchase.
Another point to consider here, by starting with a kit you can start with a smaller bed size than comes with your every day prusa, or bibo, etc. since you mentioned N scale. Or larger if you wish. Simply put, a kit gives you more, and in many cases, better parts options.
For comparative info i use:
ANet8 (printer)
Solutech PLA\ABS (media)
Sketch-Up Pro (drafting)
Simplify3D (Slicing)
Win7 PC (runs it all, printer too)
Others tried:
Prusa, Tronxy
Good Luck!
PMR
Here is the current 3D print project: https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/290988.aspx
mbinsewi There is a guy in WI. that does this type of modeling, he focuses on old buildings in the Racine, WI area, but in HO scale. Mike.
There is a guy in WI. that does this type of modeling, he focuses on old buildings in the Racine, WI area, but in HO scale.
Mike.
Yes! This is the whole egg in a nutshell. Going from HO Scale to N Scale seems to cross a physical limitation of the resolution of commercially available hobby-use 3D printers. Which is why I'm so glad to see NScale4x8 jumping into the adventure. I have a decent resin printer (along with a micro-milling machine and laser cutter/engraver) and I am looking for a decent filament printer.
NorthsideChi . . . figuring out creative ways to represent certain items is part of the art.
. . . figuring out creative ways to represent certain items is part of the art.
Yes, and that goes double for N Scale. The question is always what to leave in and what to leave out. And how much to exaggerate the size of the handrails before they cross over into the dreaded realm of 'toy-like'. The situation is kinda like how the great sculptors of old faced the delimma of carving standing figures of heroic humans in marble: the stone ankles are just too slim to support the massive stone torsos. So, they (the sculptors) would compose the image to have Apollo always standing next to a bush or a boulder or something, or leaning against a column or wall.
I'm following both NScale4x8's and NorthsideChi's threads with interest.
EDIT I've looked at the Bibo printer and the Prusa MK3s. I also looked at the Qidi X-Max, which is the one I think I will go with. As always, I will use AutoCAD Civil 3D and/or Fusion360 to design the buildings and structures and create the .STL files. We'll see how it goes.
NScale4x8 I have a Bibo printer which I think is a generic version of some common design because there are many similar ones on the market. The printer is advertised as capable of printing 0.4mm wide items and 0.05mm layer heights. When I first started, I used the highest resolution settings thinking they would produce the best results even though simple prints took many hours. 0.4mm corresponds to 2.4 inches in N-Scale. 0.05mm is 0.3 inches in N-Scale. Roughly speaking, the resolution is enough to print N-Scale hand rails, door knobs, ladders, etc., but it’s a bit too thick for window mullions. I discovered that 0.2mm layer heights work best with my printer. They produce the smoothest results. I also discovered that if the print head moves fast enough, it stretches the hot filament and can create thicknesses much less that 0.4mm. Consequently, I usually print with 0.2mm layer heights at about double the default speed.
I have a Bibo printer which I think is a generic version of some common design because there are many similar ones on the market.
The printer is advertised as capable of printing 0.4mm wide items and 0.05mm layer heights. When I first started, I used the highest resolution settings thinking they would produce the best results even though simple prints took many hours.
0.4mm corresponds to 2.4 inches in N-Scale. 0.05mm is 0.3 inches in N-Scale. Roughly speaking, the resolution is enough to print N-Scale hand rails, door knobs, ladders, etc., but it’s a bit too thick for window mullions. I discovered that 0.2mm layer heights work best with my printer. They produce the smoothest results. I also discovered that if the print head moves fast enough, it stretches the hot filament and can create thicknesses much less that 0.4mm. Consequently, I usually print with 0.2mm layer heights at about double the default speed.
Indeed, figuring out creative ways to represent certain items is part of the art. I'll generally print all the windows and doors, fire escapes and fencing flat on the build plate to get the best detail. Sounds like most consumer printers are at their limit right now. Similar to what you are saying, but at a larger scale, I'm limited to modeling window mullions and railings to 1.8 inches in the real world when scaled to HO. I usually just model those to 2 inches. I rarely print stuff at 0.05 mm Except when I make textured items. Usually I can achieve high quality brick walls at 0.10 and I'd imagine that would translate well into N scale decently also.
Looking forward to seeing more of your work.
My You Tube
Nice work. 3D printing really shows its utility here creating rounded corners and triangular footprints. You just don't get that customization with kits.
what type of printer are you using?
Prototype inspiration:
Nice work!
I wrote a short blog post/article about the step by step process to design and 3D print a structure: https://nscale4by8.github.io/nscale4x8/buildingStRitaStartToFinish/buildingStRita.html