Wiring Techique Questions

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Spacemouse, you could incorporate a DPDT switch into the track that is DC and allow it to be switched from DCC to DC thus allowing you to run pure DC trains that are perhaps too hard to convert to DCC. I know that the Zephry will allow you to use the 00 slot for DC on DCC, but most agree it is best not to leave the trains on this for too long.

That is a great idea! Lil guy just might have found a race course. [:D][:D]

[simon1966]

Spacemouse, you could incorporate a DPDT switch into the track that is DC and allow it to be switched from DCC to DC thus allowing you to run pure DC trains that are perhaps too hard to convert to DCC. I know that the Zephry will allow you to use the 00 slot for DC on DCC, but most agree it is best not to leave the trains on this for too long.

[rrinker]

The Zephyr is 2.5 amps. Regardless, I would run them from a separate power supply. They don't draw much, only 10-12ma per machine - 100 of them would only draw 1.2 amps! If you are going to control them with simple toggle switches, than it's no big deal to run them with a 9-12v wall plug type supply, you can get those at Radio Shack. A 500ma one would run 40 or so Tortoises.
If you are going to use stationary decoders so that you can throw the switches from your DCC throttle (and again I'll state my opinion on this - regardless of the brand of DCC system, I find this operation awkward at best, trying to dial up a turnout number and hitting the button), they they will be powered by the DCC track power (indirectly) and it will matter. My thoughts on the matter, when I was going to use stationary decoders (I've since changed my mind, for the reason I stated) was to get a second booster to actually run my layout, and use the track output of the Zephyr as the 'stationary decoder bus" to power the switch machines - 2.5amps is good for 200 of the terrapins. A good reason for this? If the same DCC bus runs the trains AND powers the switch motors, and there is a short cause by a turnout being aligned wrong, all power is shut off by the booster - you can't throw the switch to fix the problem! By having a separate power district for the switch machines, you avoid that problem completely.

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks guys I appreciate the effort you put into your answers..

cacole,

Romex for me would be cheaper. I have 200 ft in my garage left over from a job.

rrinker,

The common I was referring to would be the ground in the Romex 12 gauge. I'm planning to use a Zephyr system. I'm wondering how many amps the tortoises will draw. And if the Zephyr is rated a 5A, whether I should use a different power source for the tortoises. I have a couple cheapy Bachman DC power packs and a Tech II which I was planning to use as a spare throttle/ AC power supply. Can I use any of them as a power source for the tortoises?

I like the idea of pre-wiring the joiners. I would have just tried to do it on the track.

Simon,

I pretty much agree with everything you said. I did not think of splitting the loops however. I cannot imagine my son staying out of where he shouldn't go. In the short run, the 4x8 will be DC. When I wire in the DCC in the larger track, I'll pop a loop of Romex over the door and power the small track as well. I already have the throttles that I had to buy for the club.

[simon1966]

The whole point about the power bus and the regular feeder drops to the power bus is to eliminate track power losses, both initially and in the future due to poor electrical conectivity between the track pieces at the rail joiner location. I used to use Atlas True Track (similar to EZ track in that it is sectional track on a plastic roadbed), I did not have a permanent location for this and as a result over time after repeated dismantling and reasembling the joiners became loose and I would frequently get dead spots. For my permanent layout, I use Peco turnouts and Atlas flex track. I used the convention that every peice of track is soldered to something. So for long curves, I have 2 three foot sections of flextrack soldered together at the joiners and then a power drop from down to the power bus from this 6ft section. I have a power drop on every turnout as none of these are soldered to neighboring track sections. Some may say this it over the top, but I wanted to be sure that I do not have to rely on a track joiner conducting the power anywhere on the layout.

But... and a big but...., you are going to use sectional EZ track and if you wanted to use my convention, you would either have to solder the track sections together at the joiners or, have a power drop for every track section. This would most likely be complete overkill. I think in your situation, I would be inclined to try and avoid having to solder to the track at all, as I am nor sure how easy it would be to solder without heat damaging the plastic roadbed. Make sure when you assemble the track sections that the joiners are good and tight. Use the joiners with power feed every 3 feet or so on each loop of track. So maybe 4 on each loop on the main lines. Use insulated rail joiners where the sidings connect to the turnouts and then have a power feed joiner somewhere on each siding. In this way you can have these isolated sections run thru toggle switches so you can turn off the power to them (I seem to remember in a previous post that you wanted to park trains in the sidings and turn them off) this will work well for you in DC and be an easy conversion to DCC later. You might also consider having insulated joiners between the main line loops where they cross over. This will enable you in DC to control each loop with a different power pack and run more than one train at a time. You will effectively be creating a different power block for each loop.

[rrinker]

1) Yes, just run the wire along under the track and solder on the drops from the track. You DON'T run multiple #12 lines back to the control panel from every track feeder. Unless you have a huge stock on hand, plain #12 insulated wire is likely cheaper than Romex, too.

2) I used #20 solid for my track drops. It was a little more size-compatible with HO rail than #18. Since we're talking 6-10" of wire, the smaller size does not matter here - and there are PLENTY of drops.

3) You can run one common for all your accessories like that (just a note, Tortoises operate on DC, not AC). If you are going to common all your accessories like that, I'd use another #12, not #16.

4) Perhaps. Back in my 4x8 (and 3x6 N scale) days, I just ran two wires for everything - although I did not have every structure light controlled by a separate switch, several were hooked together and controlled by a single switch.

5a) Back then I used Atlas, nothing like the EZ Track or Tru-Track existed. I spliced the wires on, I did NOT attempt to open up the switch machines and solder on.

5b) Connector tracks? I assume you mean the terminal sections, witht heir little plug-in connectors and red wires - if you are going to put those in, just conenct to the terminals. You could replace them with regular track sections and solder the wires to the track, but there's no real point soldering to the track if you already have the terminal section.

5c) This was just discussed the other day, I think the topic title was "Soldering". Me, I solder to the joiners, I make up a stock of such assemblies ahead of time at the workbench, and then EVERY track joint in my flex track gets a pair of these, unless it's supposed to be a gap. There is one place so far where I deviated from that, and that's where I have two switches back to back with about 6" of track between them. Only 1 of those 2 joints has feeders on it. Other people solder directly to the track, but I've never been a big fan of that. I find I can get better and more consistent solder joints soldering to the joiners at the bench where I don't have to worry about excessive heat or applying the heat too long. When you try to hurry is when you get 'cold' joints that will either break or not make good contact.

Of course, the whole irony to all this is that when I had a 4x8 oval set up using the EZ-Track, I had 2 terminal connections and STILL had power losses. Now I have an 8x12 loops completed with multiple switches,over 30 feet of run, and with just ONE set of feeders connected the trains run all the way around with no power loss. But I am NOT going to shortcut this and not connect all those feeders I installed. If I connected only 1, eventually I would regret this as joiners loosened up and so forth. Do NOT skimp on the feeders, it will only lead to frustration.

--Randy

[cacole]

For ease of use, try to avoid Romex, which is very stiff and difficult to work with. Stranded wire of the same gauge is much more flexible, and you can get crimp-on terminals to use with it for connections at barrier strips. That heavy a gauge of wire is not really necessary, either, in my opinion and experience. I wired a 20 x 40 foot HO scale club layout using 18 gauge speaker wire that can be purchased from Wal-mart and many other stores, and we have had no power problems at all.

[SpaceMouse]

I've been reading Sperandeo's wiring book and although he covers the theory pretty well I have some questions about technique. Keep in mind that I plan on wiring for DCC.

1) He shows on a chart that if you are going to be drawing 5A on a 30' you need #12 wire. Now it seems to me you can run Romex directly to your connection points, or you can run along under the track and connect say every 3 feet or wherever you think is needed. Is this a good assumption?

2) What guage are you using to connect from the track to the Romex?

3) For your AC (turnouts, lights, tortoises, etc.) assuming a 30 ft. run max You need 16 guage wire. Assuming you ran your Romex under your track, couldn't you use the Romex ground wire as your common and just run switch legs back to your control panel?

4) On a 4x8 layout, running a common wire seems like more work that it is worth, is my assumption correct?

5) For you EZ Track users (or EX-EZ track users) Assuming a 4x8 layout.

a) All the wiring that comes with the EZ track is about 20 guage and extends a whooping 18 inches from either the track power or that switches. Do you solder to the wires or do you splo=it open the turnout asn solder directly to the connection points?

b) On the connector tracks (wiring the tracks) Do you use their connectors or solder your wires directly to the track?

c) On normal pieces, do you use the joiners with the connector tabs, or do you drill through the bedding and solder directly to a normal joiner?

Thanks